Author Topic: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?  (Read 3110 times)

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Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2019, 03:50:09 PM »
Libertarianism's main branch is the Republican branch.  "Taxes are theft," types.  Just to have something to call it, I'll call it right-libertarian.

My point is that people who want to get rid of the FDA, for example, would quickly discover why the FDA was created in the first place.  The venture's mere folly.  If successful, it'd be an act of self-harm.  This is typical of right-libertarian positions on government.  The framework prescribes self-harm with no actual upside.

If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

Offline Captain Video

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2019, 07:49:30 PM »
Libertarianism's main branch is the Republican branch.  "Taxes are theft," types.  Just to have something to call it, I'll call it right-libertarian.

My point is that people who want to get rid of the FDA, for example, would quickly discover why the FDA was created in the first place.  The venture's mere folly.  If successful, it'd be an act of self-harm.  This is typical of right-libertarian positions on government.  The framework prescribes self-harm with no actual upside.

Thats a Conservative in Libertarian clothing who most likely voted Trump and is not at all the "Main Branch" of Libertarians who most likely voted for Johnson.  If you must have something to call them you can call them Libertarian leaning Republicans. They don't really lean that far and mostly use it as an excuse to get what they want like guns.

The problem is that "libertarian" is a political philosophy with a million different flavors as well as a political party based on many different ideas.  You can have an underlying philosophy with an acceptance that it may not be the best in every situation. Too many people seem to think a Libertarian in charge equals Ayn Rand.

EDIT: shit, I forgot where this thread was, we are turning this into a for/against Libertarian thread again.

To bring this back around I'm going to double down that arguing climate change with a libertarian is no different that arguing climate change with anyone else. If they bring their political philosophy into the argument they are incorrect to do so. Just dismiss it,  It has no bearing on the topic at all.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 08:09:08 PM by Captain Video »
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2019, 03:36:19 PM »
I suppose libertarian climate change deniers are not that different from other climate change deniers. But in my experience, climate change deniers tend to come almost exclusively from the libertarian or conservative camp.

I'm fully aware that the left has its fair share of denialism as well, I have even argued against it on this very forum if I'm not mistaken. It just tends not to be climate change.
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Offline Ah.hell

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2019, 03:58:51 PM »
I suppose libertarian climate change deniers are not that different from other climate change deniers. But in my experience, climate change deniers tend to come almost exclusively from the libertarian or conservative camp.
I think there's pretty clear ideologic reasons for that.  If you're inclined not to want to see the government do more stuff, you'd naturally be inclined to avoid seeing things that seem to require government doing more stuff. 

Offline Captain Video

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2019, 11:01:42 AM »
I suppose libertarian climate change deniers are not that different from other climate change deniers. But in my experience, climate change deniers tend to come almost exclusively from the libertarian or conservative camp.

I'm fully aware that the left has its fair share of denialism as well, I have even argued against it on this very forum if I'm not mistaken. It just tends not to be climate change.

Are your libertarian friends religious? When I bump into a science denying libertarian, religion is usually the actual culprit.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2019, 07:57:59 PM »
I suppose libertarian climate change deniers are not that different from other climate change deniers. But in my experience, climate change deniers tend to come almost exclusively from the libertarian or conservative camp.

I'm fully aware that the left has its fair share of denialism as well, I have even argued against it on this very forum if I'm not mistaken. It just tends not to be climate change.

Are your libertarian friends religious? When I bump into a science denying libertarian, religion is usually the actual culprit.

No, not religious. People here generally aren't religious. If I'm not mistaken, even in the US, libertarians are the least religious political demographic.
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Offline Gig

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2019, 12:58:10 PM »
In order to argue, or to “get through to” somebody, or pretty much discuss anything, you have to define what it is you are even discussing. Even the term “climate denier” is meaningless without the definition.

It’s also a terrible way to start the conversation by insulting your opponent, and labeling them a climate denier is like starting off calling someone a racist.  The conversation is not going to go well after that. And if your true purpose is to try and change their mind, starting off by making sure their mind is completely closed against anything you have to say, it’s a terrible way to begin.

If I started my post by calling everyone an idiot, pretty much anything I say after that isn’t going to make any difference at all.


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Offline Ah.hell

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2019, 01:17:30 PM »
(click to show/hide)
Blah blah blah.....

If I started my post by calling everyone an idiot, pretty much anything I say after that isn’t going to make any difference at all.


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Wait, are you calling me an idiot! >:D

Actually, I tend to agree with this.  As I may have mentioned, I'd start by getting them do define their position and tell you what they would need to convince them they are wrong.  You can quickly figure out if its even possible to change their mind. 


Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2019, 01:25:16 PM »
Reminds of that Carnegie quote, "no one ever wins an argument."
If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2019, 02:23:13 PM »
Reminds of that Carnegie quote, "no one ever wins an argument."

I think we should have CarbShark and bachfiend argue about the veracity of this statement to see how true it really is.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2019, 09:22:48 PM »
Reminds of that Carnegie quote, "no one ever wins an argument."

I think we should have CarbShark and bachfiend argue about the veracity of this statement to see how true it really is.

Oh god no. Please, no.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2019, 11:18:05 PM »
Reminds of that Carnegie quote, "no one ever wins an argument."

I think we should have CarbShark and bachfiend argue about the veracity of this statement to see how true it really is.

Oh god no. Please, no.

You don’t ‘win’ an argument by making strawman arguments.  You don’t ‘win’ arguments by ascribing more claims to a person who is arguing something different to what you’re arguing.

To give a recent example.  I argued that ‘they’ should not be used to refer to single identified persons of readily ascertainable gender, and that if it’s considered desirable to have a nongendered 3rd person singular pronoun, then one should be invented.  And you stated that you use the ‘singular they’ so as not to have to offend someone who’d prefer ‘he’ or ‘she’ not to be used, eventually mentioning transgender and non-binary gender persons.

My point is that the overwhelming majority of people want to be referred to as either ‘he’ or ‘she.’  Using ‘they’ just in case will offend more people than you’ll placate.  If you know that a person is transgender, then that person will almost certainly have a preferred gender - so use the appropriate pronoun for that gender.  If the person is of non-binary gender, you could use the pronoun preferred by that person.  Or you could just not use a pronoun at all, repeating the person’s name whenever necessary (which is what I do whenever I don’t know the person’s gender).

You ‘win’ arguments only in your own mind and only after you’ve applied the principle of charity and ascribed nothing more to the other person’s argument than what is actually being made.
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Offline Beef Wellington

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2019, 11:34:29 PM »
Reminds of that Carnegie quote, "no one ever wins an argument."

I think we should have CarbShark and bachfiend argue about the veracity of this statement to see how true it really is.

Oh god no. Please, no.

You don’t ‘win’ an argument by making strawman arguments.  You don’t ‘win’ arguments by ascribing more claims to a person who is arguing something different to what you’re arguing.

To give a recent example.  I argued that ‘they’ should not be used to refer to single identified persons of readily ascertainable gender, and that if it’s considered desirable to have a nongendered 3rd person singular pronoun, then one should be invented.  And you stated that you use the ‘singular they’ so as not to have to offend someone who’d prefer ‘he’ or ‘she’ not to be used, eventually mentioning transgender and non-binary gender persons.

My point is that the overwhelming majority of people want to be referred to as either ‘he’ or ‘she.’  Using ‘they’ just in case will offend more people than you’ll placate.  If you know that a person is transgender, then that person will almost certainly have a preferred gender - so use the appropriate pronoun for that gender.  If the person is of non-binary gender, you could use the pronoun preferred by that person.  Or you could just not use a pronoun at all, repeating the person’s name whenever necessary (which is what I do whenever I don’t know the person’s gender).

You ‘win’ arguments only in your own mind and only after you’ve applied the principle of charity and ascribed nothing more to the other person’s argument than what is actually being made.

Ah, here they goes again...
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2019, 03:48:19 AM »
Reminds of that Carnegie quote, "no one ever wins an argument."

I think we should have CarbShark and bachfiend argue about the veracity of this statement to see how true it really is.

Oh god no. Please, no.

You don’t ‘win’ an argument by making strawman arguments.  You don’t ‘win’ arguments by ascribing more claims to a person who is arguing something different to what you’re arguing.

To give a recent example.  I argued that ‘they’ should not be used to refer to single identified persons of readily ascertainable gender, and that if it’s considered desirable to have a nongendered 3rd person singular pronoun, then one should be invented.  And you stated that you use the ‘singular they’ so as not to have to offend someone who’d prefer ‘he’ or ‘she’ not to be used, eventually mentioning transgender and non-binary gender persons.

My point is that the overwhelming majority of people want to be referred to as either ‘he’ or ‘she.’  Using ‘they’ just in case will offend more people than you’ll placate.  If you know that a person is transgender, then that person will almost certainly have a preferred gender - so use the appropriate pronoun for that gender.  If the person is of non-binary gender, you could use the pronoun preferred by that person.  Or you could just not use a pronoun at all, repeating the person’s name whenever necessary (which is what I do whenever I don’t know the person’s gender).

You ‘win’ arguments only in your own mind and only after you’ve applied the principle of charity and ascribed nothing more to the other person’s argument than what is actually being made.

Ah, here they goes again...

I wouldn’t have commented if arthwollipot hadn’t libeled me.
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Offline Captain Video

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Re: How do you argue with (libertarian) climate change deniers?
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2019, 06:21:32 AM »
Reminds of that Carnegie quote, "no one ever wins an argument."

I think we should have CarbShark and bachfiend argue about the veracity of this statement to see how true it really is.

Oh god no. Please, no.

You don’t ‘win’ an argument by making strawman arguments.  You don’t ‘win’ arguments by ascribing more claims to a person who is arguing something different to what you’re arguing.

To give a recent example.  I argued that ‘they’ should not be used to refer to single identified persons of readily ascertainable gender, and that if it’s considered desirable to have a nongendered 3rd person singular pronoun, then one should be invented.  And you stated that you use the ‘singular they’ so as not to have to offend someone who’d prefer ‘he’ or ‘she’ not to be used, eventually mentioning transgender and non-binary gender persons.

My point is that the overwhelming majority of people want to be referred to as either ‘he’ or ‘she.’  Using ‘they’ just in case will offend more people than you’ll placate.  If you know that a person is transgender, then that person will almost certainly have a preferred gender - so use the appropriate pronoun for that gender.  If the person is of non-binary gender, you could use the pronoun preferred by that person.  Or you could just not use a pronoun at all, repeating the person’s name whenever necessary (which is what I do whenever I don’t know the person’s gender).

You ‘win’ arguments only in your own mind and only after you’ve applied the principle of charity and ascribed nothing more to the other person’s argument than what is actually being made.

Ah, here they goes again...

I wouldn’t have commented if arthwollipot hadn’t libeled me.

 LOL
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