Author Topic: Episode #707  (Read 2420 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bastard Soap

  • Off to a Start
  • *
  • Posts: 83
Re: Episode #707
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2019, 02:09:08 AM »
I think we know a few things after all of this:

1) The Hebrew Israelites were acting like jerks
2) The kids were acting like jerks in response
3) I have no reason to doubt that Mr. Phillips actually thought he heard 'Build the Wall!'  Memory being what it is
4) As to his(Mr. Phillips) motivation for doing what he did, I'm not sure we know for sure what that was.
5) Subsequent review of school tapes and videos show that there is a bit of a problem with sensitivity at that school.  They are doing things that appear quite insensitive to minorities.

And I'm a bit surprised that not a single commentator hasn't commented yet on how the ENTIRE mess was caused by flawed and false religious beliefs, on ALL sides.

I don't know I think the rogues were a little too quick to jump on the "take a second look" bandwagon. I really haven't seen anything that mitigates the behavior. If anything, more information made it worse. Smirky guy and the rest of the MAGA group were taunting those who were trying to keep the peace by separating opposing protestors.  They're also quick to dismiss the "Build the wall" chant claim.

But I am, admittedly, biased. I'm just suggesting that maybe the rogues are biased too.

After watching the SGU's performance on this incident, I'm really glad they never weighed in on the Trayvon Martin or Michael Brown murders. Those were two other incidents where "skeptics" needed more evidence.

I think they're hung up on the fact that more video surfaced after the initial incident, and they're all like "AHA! Skeptics wait for more evidence and there it is!!!" This really comes off as another example of the SGU so determined to prove what good skeptics they are, and how they don't live in a media bubble, they are shitting all over the human part of this story.

How's this for evidence: the kids are dressed in MAGA gear; getting in the face of a elderly Native American and mocking him; and come from a school where there's at least one incidence of a student dressing blackface in fucking public. For God's sake, two of the kids went on Fox and Friends and defended the blackface incident as people misunderstanding their school spirit.

But somehow that's not enough for the SGU to consider that maybe, just maybe, these kids are racist little bastards who get away with this garbage a lot.

I think what was especially galling was the Rogues laughing about being labeled as  both-siderists, and then taking that exact goddamn position. Like you said, I really don't see how the other videos somehow exonerate the Covington kids as not being as problematic as initially reported, which is what they're implying. On top of everything else, video surfaced of them harassing some girls at some point during that weekend.

And before anyone jumps down my throat, all of this was available by last Wednesday, which is when I think the show is recorded.

You know, I like the show. I like the Rouges. It's educational and I learn a lot every week. I'm not going to flounce publicly and say I'm not listening anymore. I also realize that Steve, et. al. could not give two shits about my opinion. I just sometimes feel like that they get so caught up with proving what level-headed, rational skeptics they are, they blow past or dismiss the emotional damage on a story like this.



You're proof that people double down on their initial convictions and ignore evidence, full video clearly show the kids did nothing. Honestly guys I fear for the skeptics movement as the far left keeps getting more of a foot in the door

Online 2397

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2612
Re: Episode #707
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2019, 02:19:14 AM »
I haven't delved that deeply into the story myself. Skimming through the 106 minutes long video, it doesn't look like an environment that allows people to have calm and reasoned discussions. A megaphone says that you're just there to yell at people, not talk. I wouldn't like having someone bang a drum in front of me, either. Or to be surrounded by people blocking the way.

Calling Catholics child molesters isn't completely out of nowhere, as they have a hierarchy that has systematically prevented investigations and moved rapists around for the sake of their own PR, showing zero concern for the victims. But that's the hierarchy, not the congregation, and I'm not sure the Black Israelites were even aware that they were Catholics.

What I do know is that I find the idea of a pro-life march revolting. Marching to have people die or have their lives ruined by being forced to undergo pregnancies. Though again that's more on the adults responsible for organizing it, than the kids.

Online Ah.hell

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 13149
Re: Episode #707
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2019, 09:26:46 AM »
You're proof that people double down on their initial convictions and ignore evidence, full video clearly show the kids did nothing. Honestly guys I fear for the skeptics movement as the far left keeps getting more of a foot in the door
I'd argue that that overstates their innocents a bit.  While I lean towards they were some dumb kids in a situation they didn't know how to handle, the video I've seen also shows they weren't exactly shrinking violets either. 

Offline daniel1948

  • Isn’t a
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 8283
  • I'd rather be paddling
Re: Episode #707
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2019, 10:17:21 AM »
...
What I do know is that I find the idea of a pro-life march revolting. ...

The deeper problem is that the anti-abortion movement is dishonest in calling itself “pro-life.” It is not pro-life. It is merely anti-abortion. If it was pro-life it would oppose the death penalty and war. And if it was really pro-life it would oppose the killing of animals.

The final proof that these people are really just religious extremists pushing an idiotic agenda is that they oppose sex education and contraception, two things that reduce the number of abortions, not by eliminating a fetus, but by preventing pregnancies in the first place.

I know people who call themselves “consistent pro-life” because they oppose abortion, war, and the death penalty. But they are not part of the anti-abortion movement that calls itself pro-life, because their solution to abortion is not to try to ban it, but rather to provide real sex education and free contraceptives to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, and support for women who want to carry their pregnancies to term but lack the financial and/or emotional supports they need.
Daniel
----------------
"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline seamas

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2371
Re: Episode #707
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2019, 11:58:06 AM »
I didn't think any of the people involved in the Lincoln Memorial incident behaved well and the people who took sides all seemed to do so reflexively.

I know the "smirking" Maga hat kid drove people nuts, but other than in an getting idiotic back and forth with the with the dumbass Hebrew Isrealites*  didn't do anything he was accused of (ie: didn't "mock him) with regard to Nathan Phillips.
As much as I cannot stand Trumpisim, I think Phillip's idea of beating a drum and chanting some song as a means to "calm" the situation is delusional and so childish that any mention of him being an "elder" should be thoroughly re-examined. Also: Why are only some people bestowed with the faux honorific as "elder"??? Seems terribly patronizing.
People championing Phillips also were quick to promote him as some "Vietnam Veteran" without checking facts.

*Hebrew Isrealites group of idiots that used to camp out in NYC Times Square yelling at people and handing out pamphlets with such topics as
"Men, don't put your dick in your woman's mouth –it fucks them in the head"..,
Anyone engaging with them is as idiotic as they are.

No one really came off clean, but at least the MAGAheads have youth and immaturity as an excuse.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 02:01:38 PM by seamas »

Online Ah.hell

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 13149
Re: Episode #707
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2019, 12:43:28 PM »
It is interesting that the Hebrew Israelites are effectively the African American Westborough Babtists with an even kookier theology but it was the MAGA kid that got all the notoriety. #whiteprivilege.

Phillips just seams like a mild and harmless kook with poor judgement by comparison. 

The kids just seem like 16 year dipshits, which is pretty much every 16 year old. 

Offline daniel1948

  • Isn’t a
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 8283
  • I'd rather be paddling
Re: Episode #707
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2019, 03:39:39 PM »
Isn’t “Hebrew Israelite” redundant?
Daniel
----------------
"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Online bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1580
Re: Episode #707
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2019, 07:09:44 PM »
Isn’t “Hebrew Israelite” redundant?

Perhaps not.  At the time when Jesus was supposedly alive, the language used in Palestine was Aramaic.  And perhaps Ancient Greek.  Hebrew would have been the language of the religious texts.  Israel when was established it decided to use Hebrew as the official language.  I suppose they could have used Yiddish or Aramaic (if anyone still speaks it).  If it had, then the talk would be of ‘Yiddish Israelites’ or ‘Aramaic Israelites’ perhaps?
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline The Latinist

  • Cyber Greasemonkey
  • Technical Administrator
  • Too Much Spare Time
  • *****
  • Posts: 7434
Re: Episode #707
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2019, 10:40:56 PM »
Isn’t “Hebrew Israelite” redundant?

Perhaps not.  At the time when Jesus was supposedly alive, the language used in Palestine was Aramaic.  And perhaps Ancient Greek.  Hebrew would have been the language of the religious texts.  Israel when was established it decided to use Hebrew as the official language.  I suppose they could have used Yiddish or Aramaic (if anyone still speaks it).  If it had, then the talk would be of ‘Yiddish Israelites’ or ‘Aramaic Israelites’ perhaps?

Um...no. The term has nothing to do with the Hebrew language. The people in question claim to be descendants of the Hebrews referred to in the Bible. That refers to a people which is generally considered synonymous with the Israelites.  It has nothing to do with the Hebrew language or the modern nation of Israel except insofar as both consider themselves descendants of the same bronze-age nomads.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Online bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1580
Re: Episode #707
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2019, 10:56:42 PM »
Isn’t “Hebrew Israelite” redundant?

Perhaps not.  At the time when Jesus was supposedly alive, the language used in Palestine was Aramaic.  And perhaps Ancient Greek.  Hebrew would have been the language of the religious texts.  Israel when was established it decided to use Hebrew as the official language.  I suppose they could have used Yiddish or Aramaic (if anyone still speaks it).  If it had, then the talk would be of ‘Yiddish Israelites’ or ‘Aramaic Israelites’ perhaps?

Um...no. The term has nothing to do with the Hebrew language. The people in question claim to be descendants of the Hebrews referred to in the Bible. That refers to a people which is generally considered synonymous with the Israelites.  It has nothing to do with the Hebrew language or the modern nation of Israel except insofar as both consider themselves descendants of the same bronze-age nomads.

I stand corrected.  So there’s not 30,000 sects of Christianity, there’s 30,003?  It’s difficult keeping track of religion when they split so often, with the leaders of the new one claiming that they have personal revelation, and that God talks to them.
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline Belgarath

  • Forum Sugar Daddy
  • Technical Administrator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 11816
Re: Episode #707
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2019, 08:16:16 AM »
Except a sect of Christianity doesn’t necessarily need to claim to be descendants of the Hebrews


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
#non-belief denialist

Offline mattand

  • Off to a Start
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Episode #707
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2019, 10:00:02 AM »
Regarding Nathan Phillips being a Vietnam vet: mea culpa on that. I screwed up and should've checked Snopes, which has a whole entry on it. In that case, the SGU's point about trying to take a bird's eye view of any given situation is a point taken.

The rest of my post? Call it doubling down; call it living in a bubble; call it whatever makes you feel better. The idea that the videos in total show the kids in a different light is just dumb. At that point, the smirks on their faces pretty much read, "Please start something, I will get away with whatever happens next." The fact that much of it was directly at a non-caucasian senior citizen makes it that much more repugnant.

And, yeah, the MAGA gear is the icing on that particular cake.

The SGU is pretty good about getting angry and indignant about people being hurt by alt med and other scams. I get they try to stay out of politics and social issues that aren't science related. On something like this, I just don't get how you can look at those videos and go "Well, everyone is to blame."
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 10:05:11 AM by mattand »

Offline daniel1948

  • Isn’t a
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 8283
  • I'd rather be paddling
Re: Episode #707
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2019, 10:08:24 AM »
I’m confused by the reference to 30,003 sects of Christianity. The early Christians claimed to be the legitimate Jews after Jesus (who they regarded as the Christ) took Judaism on a 90 degree turn (according to the Christians). But they (the Christians) did not claim to be the biological descendants of the Hebrews. They claimed only to have a new revelation from the Jewish God and to be therefore following the “real” Judaism that (according to the Christians) the Hebrews had abandoned by rejecting Jesus as the Christ.

But they didn’t have a sound theological basis for this claim. They made the claim only because the pre-Christian Romans respected old religions, and Judaism was very old. The Romans did not respect new religions. So the early Christians were trying to frame their brand-new religion as the legitimate continuation of a very old religion, in order to gain respect.
Daniel
----------------
"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Online Ah.hell

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 13149
Re: Episode #707
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2019, 10:46:04 AM »
Minor quibble, my understanding is that the Earliest christians, prior to paul anyway were Jews.  Later Christians wanted to claim jewishness because the Romans gave the Jews a pass on the Imperial cult.  Do to the antiquity of their religion which the Romans regarded as sort of quaint and backwards.  Not so much out of respect.  If the Christians weren't Jews and they wouldn't worship the Emperor then they couldn't be trusted. 

Also, its not clear to me that the Hebrew Israelites are Christian.  Their are a variety of African Israelite groups, some seem to be more christian than not while others seem to just claim to be Jews, usually with a strong element of anti-semitism because they typically think of themselves as "real Jews" as apposed to the fake Jews. 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 10:49:40 AM by Ah.hell »

Offline seamas

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2371
Re: Episode #707
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2019, 11:02:55 AM »
The rest of my post? Call it doubling down; call it living in a bubble; call it whatever makes you feel better.

Nothing about making anyone feel better, you are just doing exactly what the SGU panel was talking about. Seeing things through a filter and rationalizing your bias.
The fact of the matter is, the MAGAhat kids didn't do any of the things they were accused of, and if smirking is really and sincerely considered offensive, society is hopeless.
To me it looks like a kid trying to contain laughter as some guy starts chanting at him and banging a drum. People have different perspectives, some will give Phillips the mantle of some revered "tribal elder' while others --especially teens just might regard him as a flipping weirdo.
Had the kid hurled racist epithets at him or assaulted him, my opinion would be different.

 

personate-rain