Author Topic: "One in 20 Britons does not believe Holocaust took place, poll finds"  (Read 1364 times)

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Offline Sawyer

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Re: "One in 20 Britons does not believe Holocaust took place, poll finds"
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2019, 05:12:50 PM »
I think you're all barking up the wrong tree here.  As we have seen in countless surveys on pseudoscience and conspiracies, there's a floor around 3-5% of the general population that will believe in ANY absurd conspiracy theories, even when they are mutually exclusive.  Heck, I'm sure you can find quite a few Americans that will claim the Holocaust didn't happen AND Obama was a secret Muslim.

I don't see what's to be gained from offering vague accusations that Muslim antisemitism is the dominate explanation for Holocaust denial.  And when you jump in to a conversation and throw out an incidence rate that's exactly the same as the one being discussed along with a causal explanation of how those two things are related, I don't think it's unfair to draw some obvious conclusions.

Online Harry Black

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Re: "One in 20 Britons does not believe Holocaust took place, poll finds"
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2019, 05:43:55 PM »
Especially when you look at the post history of the source.

Online John Albert

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Re: "One in 20 Britons does not believe Holocaust took place, poll finds"
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2019, 05:50:50 PM »
Instead of making vague assertions and insinuations, why don't we look at some actual data?

Quote
Only 54 percent of the world's population has heard of the Holocaust.

54 percent.

This is the most staggering statistic in a new survey by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) of more than 53,000 people in over 100 countries, conducted by First International Resources. But that figure speaks to only those who have heard of it: Only a third of the world's population believe the genocide has been accurately described in historical accounts. Some said they thought the number of people who died has been exaggerated; others said they believe it's a myth. Thirty percent of respondents said it's probably true that "Jews still talk too much about what happened to them in the Holocaust."

Seventy years after the liberation of Auschwitz, two-thirds of the world's population don't know the Holocaust happened—or they deny it.

These beliefs follow some unexpected patterns, too. The Middle East and North Africa had the largest percentage of doubters, with only 8 percent of respondents reporting that they had heard of the genocide and believed descriptions of it were accurate. But only 12 percent of respondents in sub-Saharan Africa said the same, and only 23 percent in Asia. People in these groups were likely to say they believed the number of deaths has been exaggerated—just over half of Middle Easterners and a third of Asians and Africans think the body count has been distorted over time.


     
ANTI DEFAMATION LEAGUE

When the data is sliced by religious groups, the results are even more surprising: Hindus were most likely to believe that the number of Holocaust deaths has been exaggerated. Muslims followed closely, and those two groups were distantly trailed by Christians, Buddhists, and those with no religion. In no coincidence, Hindus and Muslims were also significantly less likely to have heard of the Holocaust.

In almost every religious group, people younger than 65 were much more likely to say they believe that facts about the Holocaust have been distorted, and they were less likely to know what the Holocaust is.

Percent Who Have Heard of the Holocaust


     
ANTI DEFAMATION LEAGUE

Percent of Who Believe Facts About the Holocaust Have Been Distorted, by Age and Religious Group

     
ANTI DEFAMATION LEAGUE

The report by the ADL, a Jewish NGO that campaigns against anti-Semitism and discrimination, also covers the prevalence of other anti-Semitic attitudes, including beliefs about Jews' allegiance to Israel, influence in media and business, and likeability. Although the prevalence of Holocaust ignorance and denial was just one small aspect of the survey, it illuminates a powerful fact: As the memory of the genocide grows fainter, attitudes toward Jews—and Israel—are changing. The fate of the Jewish people in the twentieth century was largely centered around the Holocaust: the anti-Semitism that facilitated it, the loss it wrought, and the reflection it prompted. As that history becomes more distant, it's unclear what will animate the Jewish community—and attitudes toward it—moving forward.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/05/the-world-is-full-of-holocaust-deniers/370870/
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 05:53:24 PM by John Albert »

Online John Albert

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Re: "One in 20 Britons does not believe Holocaust took place, poll finds"
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2019, 05:52:45 PM »
...

Offline Sawyer

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Re: "One in 20 Britons does not believe Holocaust took place, poll finds"
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2019, 06:48:29 PM »
If I do some shitty back-of-the-envelope calculations combining the above chart with God Bomb's post .......

... it would result in 0.5% of Britons are Muslim Holocaust deniers.  Compared to the 4.5% of non-Muslims.  Clearly those 10% of deniers are the real core of the problem though, right?   >:D

I realize you'd get a completely different figure if you came at it from the other direction and calculated Christian/Hindu/Budhist/etc, but I feel like this still illustrates my point.  You should be extremely cautious when combining data from completely different sociological surveys (especially when that data just so happens to fit into a convenient narrative about a minority religious group).

I still put my money on "5% of people are fucking morons" as the most parsimonious and scientifically rigorous explanation of the facts.

Online John Albert

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Re: "One in 20 Britons does not believe Holocaust took place, poll finds"
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2019, 06:52:05 PM »
Saying "5% of people are fucking morons" is just your own personal opinion. Ignoring inconvenient facts isn't parsimonious or scientific.

The figures in the article I cited above are not specific to the UK, but came from polls conducted worldwide. Hence, it's inappropriate to apply them as hard numbers for denialism rates among UK Muslims. I'd expect the proper way would be to acquire some poll data particular to UK Muslims, then calculate your percentages from there.

I'd say that antisemitism in Arab and Muslim culture is not just a "convenient narrative" though. Lots of poll data indicate its significance, and some of the highest religious authorities and national leaders in that community have issued virulent antisemitic statements over the last few decades. I certainly wouldn't characterize that as "convenient," either. I would much rather it wasn't true. But I'm not going to dismiss such obvious facts just on wishful thinking. To me it makes more sense to do a little research before reactively chalking it all up to a presumptive political narrative.

The main reason I'm busting in on this discussion of UK politics, is because the early posts in this thread assumed that the rise in Holocaust denialism was due to the rising influence of Nazis in the UK. Then that premise was leveraged to raise an argument against freedom of speech rights. And there's your "convenient narrative" in plain sight. God Bomb was the first to challenge that line of thinking. When he started taking flak for it, I stepped in to support him.

Besides the Nazi and Islam boogeymen, there's also been a lot of hoopla about alleged antisemitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party. I'm not well versed in the details of UK politics, but the results of the Chakrabarti investigation would seem to hint that regular workaday bigotry might also be a factor in the rise of Holocaust denialism in the UK.

At any rate, I think we should also be examining the bigger problem of Holocaust denialism spreading in popularity all over the world, not just in the UK.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 08:34:39 PM by John Albert »

Offline Sawyer

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Re: "One in 20 Britons does not believe Holocaust took place, poll finds"
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2019, 09:36:16 PM »
I suppose I'll retract my "this isn't even worth talking about" stance, if that's what it looks like I was saying.  Sorry.  Holocaust denial is fascinating to me, and it's absolutely worth exploring how and why it persists.

If I can speak for wastrel and Harry in this case (as I think we're all on the same page), we're just really burnt out from years of drive-by "HEY ISLAM BAD" posts.  This forum is waaaaaaay better than other secular or skeptical forums in this area, and I'd like to keep it that way.

Online Harry Black

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Re: "One in 20 Britons does not believe Holocaust took place, poll finds"
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2019, 07:09:15 AM »
I suppose I'll retract my "this isn't even worth talking about" stance, if that's what it looks like I was saying.  Sorry.  Holocaust denial is fascinating to me, and it's absolutely worth exploring how and why it persists.

If I can speak for wastrel and Harry in this case (as I think we're all on the same page), we're just really burnt out from years of drive-by "HEY ISLAM BAD" posts.  This forum is waaaaaaay better than other secular or skeptical forums in this area, and I'd like to keep it that way.
Thats my position too.
Im not sure why anyone act like God Bomb has suddenly chosen this moment and this topic to start engaging in good faith.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: "One in 20 Britons does not believe Holocaust took place, poll finds"
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2019, 01:45:39 PM »
I recall someone on this forum writing that antisemitism was not even an issue anymore. Which is pretty hard to maintain when we read articles like Nearly half of UK Jews consider emigrating, some to Israel.
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Online John Albert

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Re: "One in 20 Britons does not believe Holocaust took place, poll finds"
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2019, 06:06:31 PM »
If I can speak for wastrel and Harry in this case (as I think we're all on the same page), we're just really burnt out from years of drive-by "HEY ISLAM BAD" posts.  This forum is waaaaaaay better than other secular or skeptical forums in this area, and I'd like to keep it that way.

Well, I mean, Islam really is very bad, by nearly every objective measure.

Which is, of course, not to say that Muslims are necessarily bad people. They're victims too. In my view, that's the most important distinction to make.

Christianity has the potential to be very bad also, and some denominations are every bit as bad as even the most radical sects of Islam. But that doesn't mean that all Christians are horrible people either.


I recall someone on this forum writing that antisemitism was not even an issue anymore. Which is pretty hard to maintain when we read articles like Nearly half of UK Jews consider emigrating, some to Israel.

Antisemitism is on the rise all over Europe and the USA. This is no doubt due to a rise in far-right ideologies, but I also wonder how much might be political fallout from the recent illegal actions of the state of Israel.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 06:09:42 PM by John Albert »

Offline PANTS!

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Re: "One in 20 Britons does not believe Holocaust took place, poll finds"
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2019, 08:57:41 PM »
The BBC podcast, "more or less" just discussed this.  They specialize in analyzing numbers used in the media.  They do not trust this number due to some issues with methodology. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02nrss1/episodes/downloads

Thanks for posting this.  I was coming here to put the same in the thread.

And it looks like it was completely overlooked.

Y'all.  Listen to the podcast.  They made a good case that the survey sucked, and the number is more along the lines of 1 in 400.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 09:02:17 PM by PANTS! »
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Online Harry Black

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Re: "One in 20 Britons does not believe Holocaust took place, poll finds"
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2019, 04:41:00 AM »
The BBC podcast, "more or less" just discussed this.  They specialize in analyzing numbers used in the media.  They do not trust this number due to some issues with methodology. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02nrss1/episodes/downloads

Thanks for posting this.  I was coming here to put the same in the thread.

And it looks like it was completely overlooked.

Y'all.  Listen to the podcast.  They made a good case that the survey sucked, and the number is more along the lines of 1 in 400.
Can you translate that figure to muslims for me?

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: "One in 20 Britons does not believe Holocaust took place, poll finds"
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2019, 01:02:30 PM »
Saying "5% of people are fucking morons" is just your own personal opinion. Ignoring inconvenient facts isn't parsimonious or scientific.

In my admittedly unscientific opinion, the amount of morons in the population certainly exceeds 5%.

The figures in the article I cited above are not specific to the UK, but came from polls conducted worldwide. Hence, it's inappropriate to apply them as hard numbers for denialism rates among UK Muslims. I'd expect the proper way would be to acquire some poll data particular to UK Muslims, then calculate your percentages from there.

I didn't make any claim about British Muslims in the OP, and I don't think the article did either.

I'd say that antisemitism in Arab and Muslim culture is not just a "convenient narrative" though. Lots of poll data indicate its significance, and some of the highest religious authorities and national leaders in that community have issued virulent antisemitic statements over the last few decades. I certainly wouldn't characterize that as "convenient," either. I would much rather it wasn't true. But I'm not going to dismiss such obvious facts just on wishful thinking. To me it makes more sense to do a little research before reactively chalking it all up to a presumptive political narrative.

Yeah, the Middle East is rife with antisemitism, and polling data from here suggests that antisemitism is more common among Muslims than the general population. I wouldn't be surprised if that is also the case in the UK.

Antisemitism is simply more common among some groups than others. It is, for example, also more common in Eastern Europe than in Western Europe.

But at the same time, this doesn't mean that all Muslims are antisemitic, or that no non-Muslims are.
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: "One in 20 Britons does not believe Holocaust took place, poll finds"
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2019, 01:05:35 PM »
but I also wonder how much might be political fallout from the recent illegal actions of the state of Israel.

Not much. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been pretty mute during the past years, because not very much has happened, and because it has been dwarfed by the war in Syria. And in Eastern European countries with long historical traditions of antisemitism, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict barely enters the radar.
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Offline Ah.hell

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Re: "One in 20 Britons does not believe Holocaust took place, poll finds"
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2019, 02:32:42 PM »
The BBC podcast, "more or less" just discussed this.  They specialize in analyzing numbers used in the media.  They do not trust this number due to some issues with methodology. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02nrss1/episodes/downloads

Thanks for posting this.  I was coming here to put the same in the thread.

And it looks like it was completely overlooked.

Y'all.  Listen to the podcast.  They made a good case that the survey sucked, and the number is more along the lines of 1 in 400.
Can you translate that figure to muslims for me?
1:20th of British Muslims. 

 

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