Author Topic: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"  (Read 7271 times)

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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #90 on: February 14, 2019, 01:32:31 PM »
To be fair, the history of Norway is fucking aweseome.

It is but I am always amazed that we look back on ancient historical people way differently than current populations. Could you imagine if there was a group of people like the Vikings today running around. We would revile them.

The Vikings weren't very different from their contemporary Anglo-Saxons or Franks.

Right, but the history of Norway has a lot going on other than Vikings, which by most definitions were really only around for about 250 years.

You mean like when we annexed a significant part of their territory? :P ;)

I was responding to the implication that the Vikings were unusually violent compared to their contemporaries.

I think that Norway was not an independent country for most of the last millennium.

If you are interested in Norwegian or Scandinavian history, you should read about Jämtland. I've never been there unfortunately, but I think it has possible the coolest history of all the Nordic provinces.

From Wikipedia:

Quote
Jämtland was originally an autonomous peasant republic, its own nation with its own law, currency and parliament. However, Jämtland lacked a public administration and was thus best regarded as an anarchy, in its true meaning. Jämtland was conquered by Norway in 1178 and stayed Norwegian for over 450 years until it was ceded to Sweden in 1645. The province has since been Swedish for roughly 370 years, though the population did not gain Swedish citizenship until 1699. The province's identity is manifested with the concept of a republic within the kingdom of Sweden, although this is only done semi-seriously.

...

Historically, socially and politically Jämtland has been a special territory between Norway and Sweden. This in itself is symbolized in the province's coat of arms where Jämtland, the silver moose, is threatened from the east and from the west. During the unrest period in Jämtland's history (1563–1677) it shifted alignment between the two states no less than 13 times.
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #91 on: February 14, 2019, 02:05:55 PM »
Around the same time dad went on a road trip to New Orleans. When a white woman hugged him in public<ref>Another teacher from Milton who travelled there with her friends and met up with dad and his friends.</ref> traffic fucking stopped and he had so flee for his life. They still had goddamn colored drinking fountains and bathrooms then!

An appalling story to be sure, but I don't think mid-1960's Louisiana was a good representative sample of the entirety of US culture during the Civil Rights era.

That said, I certainly don't mean to diminish the influence of racism in the US. Race relations seemed to have steadily improved over the course of the 1980s, '90s, and early aughts, but for some reason it's deteriorated very quickly since about 2007 or so.

That was not the only US city where they had trouble on their drive South from Toronto, but the anecdote was to add colour to the list of problems that the US has had with both cultural and explicit legally mandated segregation and racism over the last century or so. Slavery, forced labour in prison, lynching, assassination, violent unrest and race riots, and federal abstention from helping the brown and poor people with disaster relief, and even gerrymandering and voter suppression - those are not anecdotes.

I was told in this thread that Canada and the US have totally different approaches to integration and immigrants. I wrote that in practice they seemed pretty similar, and that Canada doesn't appear very different from the American melting pot. Apart from amysrevenge who seemed to doubt that they are very different in practice, there have been no responses showing those significant differences, apart from various suggestions along the themes that Canadians are open-minded and embrace diversity, and Americans are narrow-minded, turn everyone into Americans, and that immigrants in the US are expected to completely cut ties with their roots. Which are not arguments at all.

I confused by your claim my words are "not arguments at all." I have been making claims backed by evidence and examples.

I did not claim that the US and Canadian immigrant experience is totally different. I said your arguments and studies minimize significant differeneces and emphasize similarities. My attempts to explain these differences and their significance does not appear to be connecting with you. The differences that you dismiss lead to things like the US attempting to deal with illegal border crossings by building increasingly punitive and murderous border barriers on their southern border, and Canada budgeting $173 million in extra funds to help accomodate the asylum seekers.[1]

Because of that, I took some examples, asking to be shown the radical difference, and you react by being offended.

I'm not clear on what 'because of that' refers to. You seem to be attempting to say that the US and Canada have the same relationship with immigration because of superficial similarities that are not borne out in the actual immigrant experience in these countries.

That is not why I'm offended though.

You specifically claimed that Canada and the US are the same in this way because Canadian governments do not regulate segregation or desegregation among our immigrant and dominant cultures. This utterly ignores centuries of systematic segregation, oppression, and enslavement of blacks in the US. This is akin to ignoring the effects of apartied in South Africa when considering their culture.

Slavery and the follow-on effects that are still felt today are an enormous influence on US immigration.[2] Dismissing that reality as irrelevant offends me.

So I ask again: What is the radical difference? If Canada does not take measures (and I assume it does not) to prevent mixing between groups, or between "races", which seems to be the local obsession around here, then those groups will over time mix with each other, they won't remain unaffected. Which sounds like the American melting pot, to my ears.

Canadian government and society are rarely involved in active segregation.

American governments and society are frequently involved in active segregation.

Is that clear?

=====
[1] This is well short of the estimated $400M that is needed to really accomodate them well, but it is still an action that is diametrically opposed to the American approach. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pbo-budget-officer-asylum-seekers-costs-1.4924364

[2] Canada was lucky enough to dodge that particular horror. I don't think that was because we were particularly better than Americans. I suspect having a Colonial Master of our own limited our ability to adopt that practice. We certainly mirror many other American atrocities over the last few centuries.
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Online John Albert

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #92 on: February 14, 2019, 02:09:57 PM »
Around the same time dad went on a road trip to New Orleans. When a white woman hugged him in public<ref>Another teacher from Milton who travelled there with her friends and met up with dad and his friends.</ref> traffic fucking stopped and he had so flee for his life. They still had goddamn colored drinking fountains and bathrooms then!

An appalling story to be sure, but I don't think mid-1960's Louisiana was a good representative sample of the entirety of US culture during the Civil Rights era.

That said, I certainly don't mean to diminish the influence of racism in the US. Race relations seemed to have steadily improved over the course of the 1980s, '90s, and early aughts, but for some reason it's deteriorated very quickly since about 2007 or so.

That was not the only US city where they had trouble on their drive South from Toronto, but the anecdote was to add colour to the list of problems that the US has had with both cultural and explicit legally mandated segregation and racism over the last century or so. Slavery, forced labour in prison, lynching, assassination, violent unrest and race riots, and federal abstention from helping the brown and poor people with disaster relief, and even gerrymandering and voter suppression - those are not anecdotes.

Oh, I know. And it's getting worse.

I'm starting to feel desperate to leave this country, and I'm a white guy. I just don't want to have any part of it anymore.

But at the same time I'm conflicted, because the ability to pick up and leave is a privilege I might have that others don't. If I leave, am I not abandoning those less fortunate? Wouldn't I be shirking my civil responsibility to my homeland, to stay and contribute my voice, vote, and actions to the cause of reforming this mess?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 02:13:41 PM by John Albert »

Offline brilligtove

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #93 on: February 14, 2019, 02:27:27 PM »
Oh, I know. And it's getting worse.

I'm starting to feel desperate to leave this country, and I'm a white guy. I just don't want to have any part of it anymore.

But at the same time I'm conflicted, because the ability to pick up and leave is a privilege I might have that others don't. If I leave, am I not abandoning those less fortunate? Wouldn't I be shirking my civil responsibility to my homeland, to stay and contribute my voice, vote, and actions to the cause of reforming this mess?

People emigrate to seek gain and avoid loss - usually both. The relative value you place on the quality of life of others and of yourself drives a decision that is rarely all-positive. The romantic myth of "seeking your fortune" ignores the bittersweet-to-terrifying range of reasons people leave a place.

What I'm saying is I'm not surprised you're conflicted. If you were not it would be because your situation was so dire that there was nothing left to lose. Almost any move away from existential danger is a move toward less worse.


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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #94 on: February 14, 2019, 02:48:29 PM »
Around the same time dad went on a road trip to New Orleans. When a white woman hugged him in public<ref>Another teacher from Milton who travelled there with her friends and met up with dad and his friends.</ref> traffic fucking stopped and he had so flee for his life. They still had goddamn colored drinking fountains and bathrooms then!

An appalling story to be sure, but I don't think mid-1960's Louisiana was a good representative sample of the entirety of US culture during the Civil Rights era.

That said, I certainly don't mean to diminish the influence of racism in the US. Race relations seemed to have steadily improved over the course of the 1980s, '90s, and early aughts, but for some reason it's deteriorated very quickly since about 2007 or so.

That was not the only US city where they had trouble on their drive South from Toronto, but the anecdote was to add colour to the list of problems that the US has had with both cultural and explicit legally mandated segregation and racism over the last century or so. Slavery, forced labour in prison, lynching, assassination, violent unrest and race riots, and federal abstention from helping the brown and poor people with disaster relief, and even gerrymandering and voter suppression - those are not anecdotes.

Oh, I know. And it's getting worse.

I'm starting to feel desperate to leave this country, and I'm a white guy. I just don't want to have any part of it anymore.

But at the same time I'm conflicted, because the ability to pick up and leave is a privilege I might have that others don't. If I leave, am I not abandoning those less fortunate? Wouldn't I be shirking my civil responsibility to my homeland, to stay and contribute my voice, vote, and actions to the cause of reforming this mess?

People leave their countries for all sorts of reasons. And even if you are an expat, you can still vote. At least Swedes living abroad can vote in our elections. And I have known some dual American-Swedish citizens who live here who vote in American elections.

You have to strike a balance. Yes, you'd like to be a voice in your country, but you'd also look for a good life for you personally. One should also be careful not to over-idealize the rest of the world. It has benefits compared to the present situation, but it also has drawbacks.
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Online jt512

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #95 on: February 14, 2019, 06:31:31 PM »
Around the same time dad went on a road trip to New Orleans. When a white woman hugged him in public<ref>Another teacher from Milton who travelled there with her friends and met up with dad and his friends.</ref> traffic fucking stopped and he had so flee for his life. They still had goddamn colored drinking fountains and bathrooms then!

An appalling story to be sure, but I don't think mid-1960's Louisiana was a good representative sample of the entirety of US culture during the Civil Rights era.

That said, I certainly don't mean to diminish the influence of racism in the US. Race relations seemed to have steadily improved over the course of the 1980s, '90s, and early aughts, but for some reason it's deteriorated very quickly since about 2007 or so.

That was not the only US city where they had trouble on their drive South from Toronto, but the anecdote was to add colour to the list of problems that the US has had with both cultural and explicit legally mandated segregation and racism over the last century or so. Slavery, forced labour in prison, lynching, assassination, violent unrest and race riots, and federal abstention from helping the brown and poor people with disaster relief, and even gerrymandering and voter suppression - those are not anecdotes.

Oh, I know. And it's getting worse.

I'm starting to feel desperate to leave this country, and I'm a white guy. I just don't want to have any part of it anymore.

But at the same time I'm conflicted, because the ability to pick up and leave is a privilege I might have that others don't. If I leave, am I not abandoning those less fortunate? Wouldn't I be shirking my civil responsibility to my homeland, to stay and contribute my voice, vote, and actions to the cause of reforming this mess?

Why do you feel you have a responsibility to your homeland?
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Online bachfiend

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #96 on: February 14, 2019, 10:17:03 PM »
I have no idea how the Canadian government worked, so I looked it up:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Canada

I still have no idea how the Canadian government works.

Like most democratic governments, the answer is "just barely". Personally I am quite happy with this. When governments get good act acting swiftly we can have awful outcome really fast.

I was going to note that the Australian government works in much the same way as the Canadian government, both using the Westminster system, and generally works very well.

Except, not at the moment.  The current conservative Liberal/National Party Australian one is in minority government to the liberal Labor Party Opposition and combined independent cross-benchers, some of whom are conservatives, and also to the other Opposition of ultra-conservatives within the government itself.

So it’s doing little, until the next election in a few months.
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Online John Albert

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #97 on: February 15, 2019, 06:16:16 AM »
Why do you feel you have a responsibility to your homeland?

Maybe it's because I was brought up to believe that politics is a personal responsibility and I'm capable of making a difference if I try.

Online jt512

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #98 on: February 15, 2019, 05:50:46 PM »
Why do you feel you have a responsibility to your homeland?


Maybe it's because I was brought up to believe that politics is a personal responsibility and I'm capable of making a difference if I try.

Or, to put it another way, maybe it's because you were "brought up to believe" (ie, indoctrinated) that you have a special responsibility to the tribe into which you were born through no choice of your own.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 05:56:40 PM by jt512 »
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #99 on: February 16, 2019, 08:07:59 AM »
Why do you feel you have a responsibility to your homeland?


Maybe it's because I was brought up to believe that politics is a personal responsibility and I'm capable of making a difference if I try.

Or, to put it another way, maybe it's because you were "brought up to believe" (ie, indoctrinated) that you have a special responsibility to the tribe into which you were born through no choice of your own.
Humans are intrinsically altruistic to the in-group, and intrinsically form in-groups. Indoctrination makes use of this. It does not cause this.
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #100 on: February 16, 2019, 06:01:44 PM »
So I ask again: What is the radical difference? If Canada does not take measures (and I assume it does not) to prevent mixing between groups, or between "races", which seems to be the local obsession around here, then those groups will over time mix with each other, they won't remain unaffected. Which sounds like the American melting pot, to my ears.

Canadian government and society are rarely involved in active segregation.

American governments and society are frequently involved in active segregation.

Is that clear?

Am I misinterpreting?  Did we find common ground? What is your response?
evidence trumps experience | performance over perfection | responsibility – authority = scapegoat | emotions motivate; data doesn't

Online jt512

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #101 on: February 16, 2019, 06:05:22 PM »
Why do you feel you have a responsibility to your homeland?


Maybe it's because I was brought up to believe that politics is a personal responsibility and I'm capable of making a difference if I try.

Or, to put it another way, maybe it's because you were "brought up to believe" (ie, indoctrinated) that you have a special responsibility to the tribe into which you were born through no choice of your own.
Humans are intrinsically altruistic to the in-group, and intrinsically form in-groups.

Well, I guess that absolves us all of individual responsibility.
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #102 on: February 16, 2019, 06:59:29 PM »
Why do you feel you have a responsibility to your homeland?


Maybe it's because I was brought up to believe that politics is a personal responsibility and I'm capable of making a difference if I try.

Or, to put it another way, maybe it's because you were "brought up to believe" (ie, indoctrinated) that you have a special responsibility to the tribe into which you were born through no choice of your own.
Humans are intrinsically altruistic to the in-group, and intrinsically form in-groups.

Well, I guess that absolves us all of individual responsibility.

I mentioned the natures side to compliment the nurture side you stated. Both are relevant to the discussion.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #103 on: February 16, 2019, 07:47:08 PM »
So I ask again: What is the radical difference? If Canada does not take measures (and I assume it does not) to prevent mixing between groups, or between "races", which seems to be the local obsession around here, then those groups will over time mix with each other, they won't remain unaffected. Which sounds like the American melting pot, to my ears.

Canadian government and society are rarely involved in active segregation.

American governments and society are frequently involved in active segregation.

Is that clear?

Am I misinterpreting?  Did we find common ground? What is your response?

It will come, probably tomorrow.
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Offline brilligtove

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #104 on: February 16, 2019, 09:40:40 PM »
Thx
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