Author Topic: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"  (Read 7273 times)

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Offline Morvis13

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2019, 03:22:16 PM »
I would have said the US is failing at 'integration of immigrants'. Unless of course they are from specific rich white countries. The idea of the melting pot is everyone becomes the same. In this case they all become US citizens by renouncing any culture or traditions.

In Canada diversity is more welcome and integrated to a multi-cultural richness. Diversity is celebrated instead of forced conformity.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2019, 03:29:43 PM »
Quetz, it seems we mostly agree on this part of the conversation: Northern Europe was not isolated, had a strong and relatively continuous cultural development, and drew nation-lines around bits in the last few centuries.

I agree. To be notes, quite a lot of the current borders were drawn after WW1 and WW2.

On the rural/urban thing in Norway - all of them are disgusted by the French approach to Muslim immigration. I mean, after drinking a bunch at a party I had rural Norwegians quite angrily loud about the way the French put their muslims in slums, and so on. Also, "why is Mohammad such a popular name here now?" Cognitive dissonance is still running strong - but from what I've seen they are making some progress.

I'm not really very familiar with France in this regard. I would apprecaite if you could elaborate, or point to appropriate sources.

However, that Muhammad is the most common baby name in Norway appears to be an urban myth, which I suspected. I don't know how much Norwegian/Swedish you can read, but this site lists the most common baby names for females followed by males in 2017. Turns out the most common male name is Jakob/Jacob. Muhammad (including all variant spellings) was at place 24.

There is certainly a distance between them, but compared to the world as a whole, they are pretty close to each other.

As a Swede at the very top right of the map it may be hard to get a sense of what it's like in the mushy middle. The relative difference between Canada and the US is the same as Uruguay and Croatia on that diagram. This makes me think the axis chosen should not be linear. I think the apparently large space between Sweden and Norway is magnified, and the apparently small space between Vietnam and Portugal is compressed. I feel like it should be plotted on an inverse-logarithmic scale, where the first step on the X and Y axis is halved for the next step, and so on. Visually, that would put Canada and the US much closer together, and places like South Africa and India much further apart.

Interesting idea. I also appreciate that the map may not be completely perfect in its positions, but at least fairly accurate.
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Online 2397

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2019, 03:41:54 PM »
Muhammad is the most popular name specifically in Oslo, where there's a greater share of immigrant families.

https://www.abcnyheter.no/livet/2014/03/14/195061/de-mest-populaere-navnene-fra-1995-2014-for-hvert-fylke

https://www.nrk.no/ostlandssendingen/mohammed-vanligste-navn-i-oslo-1.11898780

Note that it's often one of several names people have, and there's no other equivalent naming structure, as far as I know. Christian kids aren't called Jesus Knut and Jesus Per. Many have multiple names, but with more variety so they don't add up in the statistics at the same rate.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 03:48:18 PM by 2397 »

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2019, 03:50:02 PM »
I would have said the US is failing at 'integration of immigrants'. Unless of course they are from specific rich white countries. The idea of the melting pot is everyone becomes the same. In this case they all become US citizens by renouncing any culture or traditions.

In Canada diversity is more welcome and integrated to a multi-cultural richness. Diversity is celebrated instead of forced conformity.

That isn't my impression of the US.

The US has Chinatowns and Japantowns. There is a significant Armenian community in Los Angeles since the 1920s. There is Tehrangeles. A lot of Americans also seem very aware of the roots of their ancestors, like Ireland, Italy, Germany, Wales, etc.

In short, people becoming part of mainstream society, while maintaining some cultural traditions from their origin. Which seems perfectly appropriate to me. If I moved to another country, I wouldn't want to isolate myself from the mainstream society. Becoming American seems not to require to cut all ties with your background.

I also wonder how this is different from Canada in practice. I mean, I suppose Canadians of various ethnicities intermarry, which would create mixed-ethnic children grown up in Canada. Who I assume would feel more at home in Canada than in their parents' countries of origin.

And by measures of socioeconomic performance of immigrants, the US performs very well. Indian Americans and Iranian Americans are among the most successful groups, showing that it is not just people of European origin that succeed there.

To take other examples, Jews, who have historically been subject to much persecution (still are in some places), are also well integrated into American society. Probably the most persecuted ethnic group in Europe, the Romani people, seem well established in the US.

Compare this to the situation of Turkish immigrants to Germany (which took off in the 1960s, and the situation is less rosy:

Quote
Turkish immigrants make up Germany's second biggest immigrant group with almost 3 million people and are very poorly integrated, ranked last in Berlin Institute's integration ranking.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2019, 03:51:56 PM »
Canada rightly prides itself on being a multicultural nation, as contrasted to the U.S. “melting pot.” Therefore I’m sure there are many different views of U.S.-ers among Canadians.

My recent experience of Canada and Canadians is from hiking in southeastern British Columbia for the past dozen years or so. The Canadians I encounter generally like U.S.-ers while being disgusted with the baboon in the White House and the ridiculous electoral college system that so often gives the office to the person rejected by the voters.

(I generally try to avoid using the word “American” to refer to a citizen of the U.S. since the North American continent includes Canada and Mexico as well as the U.S., and the Central and South American continents include a bunch of other countries as well. Mexicans have a suitable word, “Estadounidense,” though they seldom use it, “Americano” being more common.)

If I may ask, what is the difference between "multicultural" and "melting pot", both in theory and in practice? To my eyes at least, both the US and Canada are two countries that have succeeded well in integration of immigrants, at least compared to many European countries. And I think the general view over here is that both the US and Canada are much better than us at doing so.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, as always. But from what I know and have read, it seems to be the case.

I would say the difference is in the ideal:

The ideal in the U.S. is that immigrants need to adopt the dominant Anglo-Saxon culture and language. They should “become Americans.” That this does not necessarily happen is both a good thing and a failure of the ideal. It worked on my mother, who as a little girl was made to feel so ashamed of her parents for not speaking English, that she rejected their culture, and I was never exposed to it except for a few hours a year at large family gatherings. I am an ethnic Jew but I know virtually nothing of Jewish culture or religion. In the U.S. it is widely regarded as a bad thing when an immigrant family preserves its cultural traditions or its language. Hispanics in the U.S. are widely excoriated for failing to learn English, even though in my experience working with migrant farm workers most children of immigrants are fully bilingual. I don’t know if that’s the case in self-contained Hispanic communities.

The ideal in Canada is to celebrate cultural diversity. Learn English or French but keep your traditions, language, foods, clothing, etc. My experience of Canada is too limited to comment on how well this works. I know Canadians who after several generations still speak their ancestral language, as well as English.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2019, 03:52:51 PM »
Well, there's a different model for success for the two countries (whether either one actually meets the model is a different discussion).

The US model is that immigrants are welcomed, and in a generation or two turn into Americans.

The Canadian model is that immigrants are welcomed, and the equilibrium between all the various immigrants and all the previous Canadians is constantly shifting to a new definition of what "Canadian" means.  They change some, the rest of us change some (just by relative size they change more than we do), and a new normal is attained.

Like I said, it is very much up for debate whether this actually happens, or how successfully, but that's sort of what the target is.

It's kind of like two bell curves, with the same mean, but one is wider than the other.

Fair enough. I still have a hard time to see what the difference in practice would be. In both cases, it seems like immigrants become part of the mainstream society (either American or Canadian) while retaining some of their customs of background origin.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2019, 03:54:40 PM »
Muhammad is the most popular name specifically in Oslo, where there's a greater share of immigrant families.

https://www.abcnyheter.no/livet/2014/03/14/195061/de-mest-populaere-navnene-fra-1995-2014-for-hvert-fylke

https://www.nrk.no/ostlandssendingen/mohammed-vanligste-navn-i-oslo-1.11898780

Note that it's often one of several names people have, and there's no other equivalent naming structure, as far as I know. Christian kids aren't called Jesus Knut and Jesus Per. Many have multiple names, but with more variety so they don't add up in the statistics at the same rate.

The name Jesus (pronounced hay-SOOS) is common in Latin America.
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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2019, 10:37:12 PM »
I would have said the US is failing at 'integration of immigrants'. Unless of course they are from specific rich white countries. The idea of the melting pot is everyone becomes the same. In this case they all become US citizens by renouncing any culture or traditions.

In Canada diversity is more welcome and integrated to a multi-cultural richness. Diversity is celebrated instead of forced conformity.

That isn't my impression of the US.

The US has Chinatowns and Japantowns. There is a significant Armenian community in Los Angeles since the 1920s. There is Tehrangeles. A lot of Americans also seem very aware of the roots of their ancestors, like Ireland, Italy, Germany, Wales, etc.

In short, people becoming part of mainstream society, while maintaining some cultural traditions from their origin. Which seems perfectly appropriate to me. If I moved to another country, I wouldn't want to isolate myself from the mainstream society. Becoming American seems not to require to cut all ties with your background.

I also wonder how this is different from Canada in practice. I mean, I suppose Canadians of various ethnicities intermarry, which would create mixed-ethnic children grown up in Canada. Who I assume would feel more at home in Canada than in their parents' countries of origin.

And by measures of socioeconomic performance of immigrants, the US performs very well. Indian Americans and Iranian Americans are among the most successful groups, showing that it is not just people of European origin that succeed there.

To take other examples, Jews, who have historically been subject to much persecution (still are in some places), are also well integrated into American society. Probably the most persecuted ethnic group in Europe, the Romani people, seem well established in the US.

Compare this to the situation of Turkish immigrants to Germany (which took off in the 1960s, and the situation is less rosy:

Quote
Turkish immigrants make up Germany's second biggest immigrant group with almost 3 million people and are very poorly integrated, ranked last in Berlin Institute's integration ranking.

It is hard to make good comparisons between most of Europe and the way either Canada or the US work. I think the UK comes closest, having had so much of their former empire become part of the cultural landscape at home.

Canada aims for a mosaic. We tend to think of ourselves as a quilt, where many cultures contribute to the whole by retaining key elements of their history and sharing them with the whole. We are a patchwork culture, and mostly pretty happy about that.

America aims for a melting pot. In theory you arrive unburdened by the sins of your ancestors, and can blend seamlessly into the alloy of American culture. In practice, as Daniel noted, the dominant white culture expects the immigrants and browns to conform to their ideals, while simultaneously appropriating major elements of those cultures, segregating 'foreigners' from the 'real america', and making it damn hard to actually melt into the pot.

Canada's record is not at all spotless here. We've done a lot of shitty things. Still, we mostly believe that more cultures make us more cultured. That added diversity adds to our worth. We absolutely expect a degree of compliance to the dominant culture - but over the last 30 or 40 years we've been adjusting to the idea that the dominant culture isn't one culture. It's a bunch of them all contributing to something quite different from most of the world.

The US is much less integrated than Canada - and we are MUCH less integrated than I think we should be. Even so, our approach to understanding who we are as a nation is not at all like, say France. Their colonial interests in the Muslim world have led to civil unrest. Muslims are routinely shit on in obscenely racist acts. Ghettoization is only a small part of it. Norwegians have been trying to live up to their egalitarian ideals (the French do not have egalitarian ideals as far as I can tell) with their huge influx of Muslim refugees. Like France, they are a monoculture (yes, with regional differences). Unlike France, the believe that it is their responsibility to treat others as if they were as good as Norwegians are.

...That was hard to phrase. I think ethnic Norwegians absolutely believe that they are better than everyone else in the world, while also believing that they are no better than anyone. They care deeply about their history and culture, while also striving to not put it on a pedastal compared to others.
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Online arthwollipot

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2019, 11:03:27 PM »
To be fair, the history of Norway is fucking aweseome.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2019, 01:46:00 PM »
Ok, just to help me understand, let's contemplate two cases, one real, and one fictional:

1. Ali Rizvi is a Pakistan-born Canadian former Muslim, now atheist. He has even written a book called The Atheist Muslim about his experiences. Now by becoming an atheist, he is, I presume, not raising his children to be Muslims. He is also moving closer to the secular(ish) norm of Canada.

2. Now the fictional case. Let's imagine that a bright girl was born in India. She was born into a reasonably well-off family, got herself an education, and makes herself a career. For various reasons she is unhappy about life in India, and relocates to Canada. At one point she meets a handsome Canadian man of English and Welsh descent having been Canadian for several generations, falls in love, marries him, and they have a family together. Being that she is half-Indian, her children are likely to learn about their Indian background and some cultural customs. They probably even learn a little of her language. But being raised in a home in which only one partner speaks a non-English language, English is obviously going to be the main language spoken at home, and also the dominant language in society. Her kids will know English much better than they will know the mother-tongue of their mother.

In both cases, these two individuals, by their choices in life, by some ways of measuring, decreases the diversity in Canadian society. If Rizvi had remained a Muslim, and married another Muslim, rather than becoming an atheist, he and his children would have diverted more from the mainstream rather than if he does not raises his children into any particular religion. Likewise, if our fictional Indian had married another Indian, it is much more likely that Indian culture and traditions and language had been transmitted to the next generation of her descendents.

As I see it, there are basically two possible responses to this. One is a liberal approach of live and let live. Whatever religion, if any, one chooses to have, and who, if anyone, one chooses to marry, are both personal choices, not to be interfered with. the second approach is to in some way try to prevent such inter-mixing either by force of discouraging it by nudging measures. Now Canada being a liberal democracy, I have no doubt that the Canadian authorities would not interfer with personal choices like that, and I personally find the very idea of doing so very repelling. But then the question becomes, what is the practical difference between Canadian society and the American melting pot in this regard? Unless you take forceable measures to keep groups separate, in an open society they will intermingle, inter-marry, and influence each other, influencing society at large, and becoming influenced by society at large. Which sounds like the American melting pot to my ears.

As for the American melting pot not being inclusive, at least compared to here it seems very inclusive. Here we speak about first-generation immigrants, second-generation immigrants, and even third-generation immigrants. In the US they have first-generation Americans, and so on.

Someone here wrote about Americans "appropriating" cultures, but I'm not bothered since I don't accept "cultural appropriation" as a valid concept. Cultures have always changed and evolved as they are being influenced by others. The American mainstream culture for example got hamburgers from the Germans, and pizzas from the Italians, and now these items are part of the global urban culture.
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Offline Shibboleth

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2019, 02:21:20 PM »
The amount of poutine per capita correlates with the quality of life. This is not unexpected.
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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2019, 02:25:29 PM »
To be fair, the history of Norway is fucking aweseome.

So is ours, until them damn Europeans started coming  ;)

Offline Shibboleth

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2019, 02:29:59 PM »
To be fair, the history of Norway is fucking aweseome.

It is but I am always amazed that we look back on ancient historical people way differently than current populations. Could you imagine if there was a group of people like the Vikings today running around. We would revile them.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2019, 02:30:40 PM »
To be fair, the history of Norway is fucking aweseome.

It is but I am always amazed that we look back on ancient historical people way differently than current populations. Could you imagine if there was a group of people like the Vikings today running around. We would revile them.

The Vikings weren't very different from their contemporary Anglo-Saxons or Franks.
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Offline Shibboleth

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2019, 02:31:32 PM »
To be fair, the history of Norway is fucking aweseome.

It is but I am always amazed that we look back on ancient historical people way differently than current populations. Could you imagine if there was a group of people like the Vikings today running around. We would revile them.

The Vikings weren't very different from their contemporary Anglo-Saxons or Franks.

Agreed. I am trying to think about when that shift in mentality begins where we start viewing conquest negatively. I would say that it starts around the French Revolution. Most don't look at what Napoleon did positively.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 02:34:35 PM by Shibboleth »
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.