Author Topic: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"  (Read 7344 times)

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Offline Billzbub

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #75 on: February 13, 2019, 02:48:54 PM »
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I think the difference is that in American media and social media, America is painted as a country were some of the population wants schools to only teach in English and for immigrants to learn our freaking language.  How accurate is this portrayal?  I think it is actually pretty accurate.  I know my dad feels that way, and so do a lot of conservative racists.  I get the impression that there's a lot more of this kind of thinking in America than there is in Canada.

The term "melting pot" originally meant that America was made up of a lot of different cultures, so I'm surprised to hear it in this thread as a description of the idea that we want immigrants to come but to abandon their original culture.  I wish they had used a different word.
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Offline DevoutCatalyst

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #76 on: February 13, 2019, 02:48:59 PM »
To be fair, the history of Norway is fucking aweseome.

It is but I am always amazed that we look back on ancient historical people way differently than current populations. Could you imagine if there was a group of people like the Vikings today running around. We would revile them.
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Offline Morvis13

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #77 on: February 13, 2019, 03:07:21 PM »
To be fair, the history of Norway is fucking aweseome.

It is but I am always amazed that we look back on ancient historical people way differently than current populations. Could you imagine if there was a group of people like the Vikings today running around. We would revile them.
Pirates still exist. They do reprehensible things. Some skeptics celebrate them. Arrrrrrrr.

Almost a Haiku. Good work.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #78 on: February 13, 2019, 04:18:02 PM »
Quote from: brilligtove
the French do not have egalitarian ideals as far as I can tell

Isn’t their national slogan “liberté égalité fraternité”?

Pirates still exist. They do reprehensible things. Some skeptics celebrate them. Arrrrrrrr.

I belong to the anti-pirate schism of Pastafarianism. We believe that the Founder erred when he assumed that pirates are good people just because a decrease in their number is the cause of global warming. The correct interpretation is that there is a balance: when one thing gets better, another gets worse. Pirates are vile scoundrels. The reduction in their numbers is a good thing. But the balance between good and evil is maintained by global warming.
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #79 on: February 13, 2019, 05:13:34 PM »
Quote from: brilligtove
the French do not have egalitarian ideals as far as I can tell

Isn’t their national slogan “liberté égalité fraternité”?

Pirates still exist. They do reprehensible things. Some skeptics celebrate them. Arrrrrrrr.

I belong to the anti-pirate schism of Pastafarianism. We believe that the Founder erred when he assumed that pirates are good people just because a decrease in their number is the cause of global warming. The correct interpretation is that there is a balance: when one thing gets better, another gets worse. Pirates are vile scoundrels. The reduction in their numbers is a good thing. But the balance between good and evil is maintained by global warming.

IIRC that was about killing the nobles, not caring about subhuman darkies.
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #80 on: February 13, 2019, 05:28:19 PM »
Ok, just to help me understand, let's contemplate two cases, one real, and one fictional:

1. Ali Rizvi is a Pakistan-born Canadian former Muslim, now atheist. He has even written a book called The Atheist Muslim about his experiences. Now by becoming an atheist, he is, I presume, not raising his children to be Muslims. He is also moving closer to the secular(ish) norm of Canada.

2. Now the fictional case. Let's imagine that a bright girl was born in India. She was born into a reasonably well-off family, got herself an education, and makes herself a career. For various reasons she is unhappy about life in India, and relocates to Canada. At one point she meets a handsome Canadian man of English and Welsh descent having been Canadian for several generations, falls in love, marries him, and they have a family together. Being that she is half-Indian, her children are likely to learn about their Indian background and some cultural customs. They probably even learn a little of her language. But being raised in a home in which only one partner speaks a non-English language, English is obviously going to be the main language spoken at home, and also the dominant language in society. Her kids will know English much better than they will know the mother-tongue of their mother.

In both cases, these two individuals, by their choices in life, by some ways of measuring, decreases the diversity in Canadian society. If Rizvi had remained a Muslim, and married another Muslim, rather than becoming an atheist, he and his children would have diverted more from the mainstream rather than if he does not raises his children into any particular religion. Likewise, if our fictional Indian had married another Indian, it is much more likely that Indian culture and traditions and language had been transmitted to the next generation of her descendents.

As I see it, there are basically two possible responses to this. One is a liberal approach of live and let live. Whatever religion, if any, one chooses to have, and who, if anyone, one chooses to marry, are both personal choices, not to be interfered with. the second approach is to in some way try to prevent such inter-mixing either by force of discouraging it by nudging measures. Now Canada being a liberal democracy, I have no doubt that the Canadian authorities would not interfer with personal choices like that, and I personally find the very idea of doing so very repelling. But then the question becomes, what is the practical difference between Canadian society and the American melting pot in this regard? Unless you take forceable measures to keep groups separate, in an open society they will intermingle, inter-marry, and influence each other, influencing society at large, and becoming influenced by society at large. Which sounds like the American melting pot to my ears.

As for the American melting pot not being inclusive, at least compared to here it seems very inclusive. Here we speak about first-generation immigrants, second-generation immigrants, and even third-generation immigrants. In the US they have first-generation Americans, and so on.

Someone here wrote about Americans "appropriating" cultures, but I'm not bothered since I don't accept "cultural appropriation" as a valid concept. Cultures have always changed and evolved as they are being influenced by others. The American mainstream culture for example got hamburgers from the Germans, and pizzas from the Italians, and now these items are part of the global urban culture.

To suggest that racial or cultural purity and segregation increases our diveristy is an almost comical misrepresentation of what we call our culture. A complete double-speak inversion. Our culture is based on sharing each other's cultures, not on isolating them. Honestly, I'm a bit shocked.

Immigrants bring their history and culture with them. How they shares those accents, fashions, languages, foods, stories, perspectives, moral centres and more - those are added to our culture. Theymay reinforce the dominant culture in some ways, compliment it, or oppose it in others. The same will be true for their children. Sure, the kids are more Canadian in some sense than their parents. In part that is because what it means to be Canadian has shifted to accomodate who they are, not just forced them to adopt a specific set of correct values.

I have to run, but I'll come back to the rest later tonight.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #81 on: February 13, 2019, 05:34:55 PM »
To suggest that racial or cultural purity and segregation increases our diveristy is an almost comical misrepresentation of what we call our culture. A complete double-speak inversion. Our culture is based on sharing each other's cultures, not on isolating them. Honestly, I'm a bit shocked.

I did not intend to suggest that. Just that some of the posts in this thread could be interpreted in that way. I wanted some clarification. I don't think Canada actually practices such a thing. I'm sorry if that was unclearly stated.

Immigrants bring their history and culture with them. How they shares those accents, fashions, languages, foods, stories, perspectives, moral centres and more - those are added to our culture. Theymay reinforce the dominant culture in some ways, compliment it, or oppose it in others. The same will be true for their children. Sure, the kids are more Canadian in some sense than their parents. In part that is because what it means to be Canadian has shifted to accomodate who they are, not just forced them to adopt a specific set of correct values.

To my foreign ears, sounds a lot like that pot south the border.

I have to run, but I'll come back to the rest later tonight.

Looking forward to read it tomorrow. :)
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Offline haudace

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #82 on: February 13, 2019, 06:47:47 PM »
As a Canadian layman, I would say that we are not completely sold on the idea of laissez faire economics or unrestrained capitalism. We are not terrified of good socialist policies. If something works, it will be quickly adopted. Your Democrats would be seen as progressive conservatives in Canada. Our conservatives do not even question universal healthcare for instance. Those are the most obvious fundamental differences that I see in both our system of governance and society. We are very liberal social democracy.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 07:04:14 PM by haudace »

Offline brilligtove

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #83 on: February 13, 2019, 06:54:25 PM »
...I have no doubt that the Canadian authorities would not interfer with personal choices like that, and I personally find the very idea of doing so very repelling. But then the question becomes, what is the practical difference between Canadian society and the American melting pot in this regard? Unless you take forceable measures to keep groups separate, in an open society they will intermingle, inter-marry, and influence each other, influencing society at large, and becoming influenced by society at large. Which sounds like the American melting pot to my ears.

"Unless you take forceable measures to keep groups separate..."


If I sound hostile here it's because HOLY SHIT. I don't expect you to have an encyclopedic knowledge of US history, but I can't understand how you could make that statement without an agenda akin to holocaust denialism. Did you forget about...

  • Slavery?
  • Black men transitioned from slavery to forced lavour in the prison system?
  • Lynching, assassination, violent unrest over the colour of your skin? Race riots over school integration?
  • Millions of Americans today still suffering from deeply institutionalized racism?
  • Disaster response in Puerto Rico? New Orleans before it?


When my dark skinned Trinidadian father started dating my 5+ generation white mother in a small Ontario farm town in 1965 he was considered exotic, hot, and a catch. Sure, one of her brother's wives was racist and thought that mom was being defiled, but even she had no problem working with black and brown people. Around the same time dad went on a road trip to New Orleans. When a white woman hugged him in public<ref>Another teacher from Milton who travelled there with her friends and met up with dad and his friends.</ref> traffic fucking stopped and he had so flee for his life. They still had goddamn colored drinking fountains and bathrooms then!

FFS, until a few years ago it was illegal to marry across races there!

How are you ignoring this stuff in your argument?
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Offline haudace

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #84 on: February 13, 2019, 07:18:45 PM »
Brillig, I also believe the US has an issue with the way they treat their poor or most vulnerable. I used to hear a lot about American dream, not so sure this thing even exists anymore. Income inequality continues to grow https://inequality.org/facts/income-inequality/. We have our own problems of income inequality but we actively fight against it. People like Bernie or Ocasio are not controversial personalities over here. In fact they would make very boring politicians in Canada. Preaching to the choir, I know.


Offline arthwollipot

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #85 on: February 13, 2019, 09:18:01 PM »
To be fair, the history of Norway is fucking aweseome.

It is but I am always amazed that we look back on ancient historical people way differently than current populations. Could you imagine if there was a group of people like the Vikings today running around. We would revile them.

The Vikings weren't very different from their contemporary Anglo-Saxons or Franks.

Right, but the history of Norway has a lot going on other than Vikings, which by most definitions were really only around for about 250 years.
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Offline DevoutCatalyst

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #86 on: February 14, 2019, 09:49:49 AM »
"All of the people in solitary confinement in one way or another are suffering and sometimes that suffering turns into damage, and sometimes the damage proves irreversible, even fatal. "

"On any given day there are about 340 inmates being held in solitary across Canada. It's called administrative or disciplinary segregation. "


Quotations above are from the latest Quirks and Quarks podcast,

https://podcast-a.akamaihd.net/mp3/podcasts/quirksaio-AQrpmdqw-20190208.mp3

That show prompted me to watch a 2014 CBC documentary on YouTube titled Inside Canada's Prisons. I think this is one area where Canada falls short of being #1. Some of your prisons are rough, violent places. At the conclusion of the documentary it is pointed out that people travel from other parts of the world to study Canada's prisons. You could do far worse than land in one of Canada's facilities. It also appears that some of your politicians are hell bent on appearing tough on crime. Kinda reminds me of home.

I'm led to believe places like Germany and Norway are onto something others have yet to grasp. But admittedly I know little about corrections.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #87 on: February 14, 2019, 12:32:21 PM »
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #88 on: February 14, 2019, 01:07:33 PM »
...I have no doubt that the Canadian authorities would not interfer with personal choices like that, and I personally find the very idea of doing so very repelling. But then the question becomes, what is the practical difference between Canadian society and the American melting pot in this regard? Unless you take forceable measures to keep groups separate, in an open society they will intermingle, inter-marry, and influence each other, influencing society at large, and becoming influenced by society at large. Which sounds like the American melting pot to my ears.

"Unless you take forceable measures to keep groups separate..."


If I sound hostile here it's because HOLY SHIT. I don't expect you to have an encyclopedic knowledge of US history, but I can't understand how you could make that statement without an agenda akin to holocaust denialism. Did you forget about...

  • Slavery?
  • Black men transitioned from slavery to forced lavour in the prison system?
  • Lynching, assassination, violent unrest over the colour of your skin? Race riots over school integration?
  • Millions of Americans today still suffering from deeply institutionalized racism?
  • Disaster response in Puerto Rico? New Orleans before it?


When my dark skinned Trinidadian father started dating my 5+ generation white mother in a small Ontario farm town in 1965 he was considered exotic, hot, and a catch. Sure, one of her brother's wives was racist and thought that mom was being defiled, but even she had no problem working with black and brown people. Around the same time dad went on a road trip to New Orleans. When a white woman hugged him in public<ref>Another teacher from Milton who travelled there with her friends and met up with dad and his friends.</ref> traffic fucking stopped and he had so flee for his life. They still had goddamn colored drinking fountains and bathrooms then!

FFS, until a few years ago it was illegal to marry across races there!

How are you ignoring this stuff in your argument?

I was told in this thread that Canada and the US have totally different approaches to integration and immigrants. I wrote that in practice they seemed pretty similar, and that Canada doesn't appear very different from the American melting pot. Apart from amysrevenge who seemed to doubt that they are very different in practice, there have been no responses showing those significant differences, apart from various suggestions along the themes that Canadians are open-minded and embrace diversity, and Americans are narrow-minded, turn everyone into Americans, and that immigrants in the US are expected to completely cut ties with their roots. Which are not arguments at all.

Because of that, I took some examples, asking to be shown the radical difference, and you react by being offended.

So I ask again: What is the radical difference? If Canada does not take measures (and I assume it does not) to prevent mixing between groups, or between "races", which seems to be the local obsession around here, then those groups will over time mix with each other, they won't remain unaffected. Which sounds like the American melting pot, to my ears.
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Offline John Albert

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Re: "Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life"
« Reply #89 on: February 14, 2019, 01:10:15 PM »
Around the same time dad went on a road trip to New Orleans. When a white woman hugged him in public<ref>Another teacher from Milton who travelled there with her friends and met up with dad and his friends.</ref> traffic fucking stopped and he had so flee for his life. They still had goddamn colored drinking fountains and bathrooms then!

An appalling story to be sure, but I don't think mid-1960's Louisiana was a good representative sample of the entirety of US culture during the Civil Rights era.

That said, I certainly don't mean to diminish the influence of racism in the US. Race relations seemed to have steadily improved over the course of the 1980s, '90s, and early aughts, but for some reason it's deteriorated very quickly since about 2007 or so.

 

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