Author Topic: Episode #711  (Read 3674 times)

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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #711
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2019, 10:28:02 PM »
To be honest, I can't help but see this as a bit of a tempest in a teapot. The CIA has definitely done some terrible things in the past - but don't you want them to do things better in the future? How is this goal not served by giving them some assistance and telling them a few things about critical thinking? And podcasting?
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Episode #711
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2019, 10:44:47 PM »
To be honest, I can't help but see this as a bit of a tempest in a teapot. The CIA has definitely done some terrible things in the past - but don't you want them to do things better in the future? How is this goal not served by giving them some assistance and telling them a few things about critical thinking? And podcasting?

In German it’s a ‘storm in a water glass.’  And here’s one:

https://www.geo.de/geolino/redewendungen/4782-rtkl-redewendung-sturm-im-wasserglas

Knowing a little German is useful.  I’d always wondered about the meaning of ‘watershed,’ having the mental picture of a shed filled with water.  But it comes directly from the German ‘Wasserscheid,’ as a sounds vaguely like, ‘Scheid’ meaning a division or dividing line.
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Online 2397

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Re: Episode #711
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2019, 12:07:39 AM »
To be honest, I can't help but see this as a bit of a tempest in a teapot. The CIA has definitely done some terrible things in the past - but don't you want them to do things better in the future? How is this goal not served by giving them some assistance and telling them a few things about critical thinking? And podcasting?

Outreach is about improving your image. Improving the image of the enemies of humanity is not something that anyone should commit themselves to. Help them do a podcast, okay, but only if you don't brush aside war crimes and human rights violations.

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #711
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2019, 12:13:03 AM »
To be honest, I can't help but see this as a bit of a tempest in a teapot. The CIA has definitely done some terrible things in the past - but don't you want them to do things better in the future? How is this goal not served by giving them some assistance and telling them a few things about critical thinking? And podcasting?

Outreach is about improving your image. Improving the image of the enemies of humanity is not something that anyone should commit themselves to. Help them do a podcast, okay, but only if you don't brush aside war crimes and human rights violations.

Using hyperbole like "enemies of humanity" isn't helping your argument.
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Online 2397

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Re: Episode #711
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2019, 12:21:56 AM »
I'm curious what world it is that you think you live in?  Is it one where everyone is nice and plays by the rules?

Imagine your world, with no CIA (or at least a CIA which is nice and ethical) that has an FSB (formerly the KGB) or the Ministry of State Security (China) who have absolutely no compunction about playing dirty.

It is difficult, to be sure, but I am willing to bet if you had to be the US president your view on this might change.  Realpolitik is a thing, like it or not.

Don't get me wrong, the CIA has done some hideous things in the past, some of which I think are absolutely indefensible, but make no mistake that the rest of the world is not playing by your kid glove rules.

Are you saying that you can't imagine a world where the CIA and the US government didn't actively participate in a torture program, or are you saying that the world would've been worse off if they hadn't?

I don't see the point of fighting against terrorism if we're going to sink to their level. There's nothing to fight against if you admit through your actions that there's nothing that's unacceptable. There's no point to having laws if it's not a crime when the President does it, or for those who do something on behalf of the President. Foreigner and former ally crashes planes into office buildings, bad. Government worker or contractor crashes planes into office buildings, good?

Using hyperbole like "enemies of humanity" isn't helping your argument.

Who are our enemies if not those who systematically violate human rights?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 12:24:32 AM by 2397 »

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #711
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2019, 12:53:32 AM »
Who are our enemies if not those who systematically violate human rights?

I think we're all our own enemies, but that's neither here not there.

If you feel so strongly about it, what are you doing about it? Sending letters to your congresspeople? Protesting in D.C? Writing strongly-worded blog posts?
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Online 2397

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Re: Episode #711
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2019, 12:57:12 AM »
I'm doing more than the SGU are doing if they decide they want to help the CIA look better without being better.

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #711
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2019, 12:59:42 AM »
Writing strongly-worded blog posts it is, then.
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Offline Tassie Dave

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Re: Episode #711
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2019, 12:59:56 AM »
It would be nice if we lived in a world where the CIA, MI5/6, ASIO played by the rules and didn't do anything nefarious.

But that would require that we live in a world where all countries played nice and didn't try and hurt us.

It would be great if we could talk and negotiate every problem between countries. But sometimes the bully needs to be punched in the nose.

I'd be very surprised if the Rogues were talking to actual agents who have done the dirty work of assassinations and torture. They'd be dealing with the admin staff.

I have no problem with the Rogues have a working relationship with the CIA. Like any armed agency there are bad eggs who do bad things, including under Presidential orders.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 01:37:42 AM by Tassie Dave »

Online 2397

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Re: Episode #711
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2019, 01:16:53 AM »
Writing strongly-worded blog posts it is, then.

So ad hominems, that's where we're going?

I'm talking about whether it's right to help someone be more accepted by the public, when what they're doing is to harm people and societies. I'm asking why something that the rogues would be all up in arms about if it was pseduoscience that led to it, is so easy to set aside when it's the government that's responsible.

I guess ad hominems are appropriate, if the point is that we care more about the person than the message and the ideas being discussed, and the consequences of a given set of actions.

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #711
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2019, 02:05:58 AM »
Writing strongly-worded blog posts it is, then.

So ad hominems, that's where we're going?

I'm talking about whether it's right to help someone be more accepted by the public, when what they're doing is to harm people and societies. I'm asking why something that the rogues would be all up in arms about if it was pseduoscience that led to it, is so easy to set aside when it's the government that's responsible.

I guess ad hominems are appropriate, if the point is that we care more about the person than the message and the ideas being discussed, and the consequences of a given set of actions.

It's not an ad-hominem. It's mocking. I'm mocking you for being so hyperbolically anti-CIA and giving us no evidence that you're even trying to change things.

Also, what Tassie Dave said. Intelligence agencies may have some seriously questionable practices, but they are necessary. Let's make them better.
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Online 2397

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Re: Episode #711
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2019, 02:20:19 AM »
You're distracting from what I'm saying by changing the topic to what I'm personally doing about the problem, having no clue who I am or what I do, besides take part in discussions such as this one.

If the username for each one of the posts I've made was a different one, would that change anything about what those posts contain?

Also, what Tassie Dave said. Intelligence agencies may have some seriously questionable practices, but they are necessary. Let's make them better.

I agree. Which can't happen if we ignore the horrible things they do, especially if they've never been prosecuted and faced consequences for it.

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #711
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2019, 02:53:18 AM »
You're distracting from what I'm saying by changing the topic to what I'm personally doing about the problem, having no clue who I am or what I do, besides take part in discussions such as this one.

That's because you haven't told me what you do. When I ask, you deflect.

If the username for each one of the posts I've made was a different one, would that change anything about what those posts contain?

Nope.

Also, what Tassie Dave said. Intelligence agencies may have some seriously questionable practices, but they are necessary. Let's make them better.

I agree. Which can't happen if we ignore the horrible things they do, especially if they've never been prosecuted and faced consequences for it.

So, again, what are you doing to make that happen?
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Online 2397

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Re: Episode #711
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2019, 02:57:00 AM »
What would I have to say that I do for you to join me in my dislike of the direction that the SGU could be heading in?

Offline Harry Black

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Re: Episode #711
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2019, 06:38:30 AM »
One does not have to do anything at all regarding the subject to have valid objections or arguments.
Not everyone is in a position to do something about the crimes of the CIA but most people are in some way affected by them, to require some bar of action is ridiculous.