Author Topic: Snowplow parents  (Read 1865 times)

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Offline amysrevenge

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Re: Snowplow parents
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2019, 03:16:58 PM »
I have a really hard time with folks taking this to the extreme the other way from Snowplow though.  It all sounds like an updated flavour of "I walked to school and home again, uphill both ways", or that Monty Python Yorkshiremen sketch.


As was mentioned above, a moderate position is best, erring slightly on the side of "mollycoddling" to be preferred over erring on the side of neglect.
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Offline superdave

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Re: Snowplow parents
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2019, 03:22:12 PM »
I have a really hard time with folks taking this to the extreme the other way from Snowplow though.  It all sounds like an updated flavour of "I walked to school and home again, uphill both ways", or that Monty Python Yorkshiremen sketch.


As was mentioned above, a moderate position is best, erring slightly on the side of "mollycoddling" to be preferred over erring on the side of neglect.

that sounds great, but keep in mind the article in the OP is about parents of ADULTS.  It is no longer neglect once the children are over 18.
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Offline amysrevenge

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Re: Snowplow parents
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2019, 03:23:52 PM »
I have a really hard time with folks taking this to the extreme the other way from Snowplow though.  It all sounds like an updated flavour of "I walked to school and home again, uphill both ways", or that Monty Python Yorkshiremen sketch.


As was mentioned above, a moderate position is best, erring slightly on the side of "mollycoddling" to be preferred over erring on the side of neglect.

that sounds great, but keep in mind the article in the OP is about parents of ADULTS.  It is no longer neglect once the children are over 18.

Yeah that's a fair rebuttal to me.  Haha consider me rebutted.  I'm stuck in the middle of elementary school so I keep bringing it back in my mind to where I am now, even when I read about college kids.
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Offline AQB24712

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Re: Snowplow parents
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2019, 02:52:18 PM »
Parents active and participating in their children’s success is a net positive for the kids and for society.

Indeed.  However, I think we're talking about parents interfering in their children's success, or progress toward it.

Last year, a student was not one of 15 selected to live in arts leadership housing, which I administer.  The student never said a word to me, but her mother called the college president's office and worked her way down to me, telling everyone she spoke to NOT to tell her daughter that she'd called.  This mother asked me if her daughter should transfer colleges because of this housing decision.

Captain Video, Parkland paddled kids?!  But only perfect angels go to Parkland schools!  They're better than everyone else in the Valley by ever possible measure.  ::)
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Offline Captain Video

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Re: Snowplow parents
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2019, 12:03:18 AM »
Captain Video, Parkland paddled kids?!  But only perfect angels go to Parkland schools!  They're better than everyone else in the Valley by ever possible measure.  ::)

Of course they are perfect, unfortunately in the 70s and 80s the ones who were not quite perfect were also abused. I did get your joke, that school was practically "Donnie Darko" back then, I can only imagine what its like now.

 Almost every male teacher at Fogelsville Elementary grades 4-6 had a paddle on the wall with signatures of all who had become victims. Many with holes drilled in them. The asshole principal called it the "board of education". Springhouse Jr High was no different,  I never got into Parkland so I cant speak from experience but I had older friends who got hit there too.  It only happened to me 2 times, one in each school. It was not as traumatic for me as the other things I put up with, It was scary and embarrassing as it was done in front of the other students. it just pisses me off that they got away with it for so long. I'll reiterate that the poorer kids got it worse. I only recall 2 girls getting the paddle in elementary and it was done in private, It was rare. One was the only black girl in the school and the other was fat, both poor and fairly outspoken which would get them in trouble.

I'm glad things have gotten better and kids don't have to put up with this like I did.

https://schoolswats.wordpress.com/2018/05/13/1530/

Quote
While corporal punishment is banned at schools in 128 countries, 19 USA states and over 4,000 schools still allow school administrators to assault students with wooden paddles, and the practice is so much more widespread than one may think. Each year tens of thousands American students are given the choice of getting struck with a paddle in lieu of another type of punishment such as detention or in-school-suspension, but there are plenty of schools that do not give students an alternative option to a paddling.

Quote
Several public high schools even punish students by spreading their paddlings out over several days. Eldorado High School  in Eldorado, Texas states in their 2018-2019 handbook that once students are tardy to school for a sixth time they can choose to be spanked for five straight days (two swats per day: 10 total) as an alternative to five days of in-school suspension. Similarly, Jim Ned High School in Tuscola, Texas gives students the option of being beaten with a paddle for three consecutive days as part of their 2018-2019 campus discipline plan.

the article links the handbook and many other sources

I don't think the parents are interfering in their children's success, I believe they are improving the children's lives. 

Nobody has yet to show an example of how interfering has gone wrong.

I don't have any proof either but I think school abuse relates to all the snow plowing, It would make a great study to find out how many of those parents were abused or mistreated in some way. It could also be that they were poor as kids and now as working "upper" middle class they want to make it easier on their kids.  The rich have always bought their way into collage so nothing new here with them.

Most kids of my age became adults at 18 (I did it at 16) WW2 era the kids became adults at 15, IMO today's kids are not really adults till they turn 25 and I'm ok with that.



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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Snowplow parents
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2019, 12:09:28 AM »
When I was at school, the cane was very definitely used. I never got it because I was a square.
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Offline Captain Video

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Re: Snowplow parents
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2019, 12:15:23 AM »
When I was at school, the cane was very definitely used. I never got it because I was a square.

A cane would be worse. 

Does corporal punishment still continue in your country?
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Snowplow parents
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2019, 01:05:53 AM »
When I was at school, the cane was very definitely used. I never got it because I was a square.

A cane would be worse. 

Does corporal punishment still continue in your country?

No, it was abolished shortly after I left school. Late 80s.
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Offline The Latinist

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Re: Snowplow parents
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2019, 01:06:29 AM »
Again, Captain Video, we're not talking about parents intervening in the physical abuse of their children. At all. It's something you're understandably fixated on because of your own experiences and the fact that your parents did not protect you from them, but it's just not what we're talking about. We're talking about parents who become irate if their children receive deserved poor grades and who bully and badger teachers and schools to change them. We're talking about parents who threaten to sue if their children are cut from a team or benched in due to misconduct.  We're talking about parents who become irate if their children are denied recess as a consequence of physical violence on the playground. We're talking about parents who bribe and cheat to get their children into a college for which they are not qualified. We're talking about parents who write their children's college essays or hire others to do it for them. We're talking about parents of adult college students who are still engaging in these behaviors, not allowing their children to develop skills of self-advocacy and, yes, to learn by failure.

This is not about corporal punishment or mental abuse. It's about parents attempting to insulate their children from hard work and from the reasonable consequences of their actions. And, yes, all of these things and many others happen.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 01:09:37 AM by The Latinist »
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Offline Captain Video

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Re: Snowplow parents
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2019, 01:51:58 AM »
Again, Captain Video, we're not talking about parents intervening in the physical abuse of their children. At all. It's something you're understandably fixated on because of your own experiences and the fact that your parents did not protect you from them, but it's just not what we're talking about. We're talking about parents who become irate if their children receive deserved poor grades and who bully and badger teachers and schools to change them. We're talking about parents who threaten to sue if their children are cut from a team or benched in due to misconduct.  We're talking about parents who become irate if their children are denied recess as a consequence of physical violence on the playground. We're talking about parents who bribe and cheat to get their children into a college for which they are not qualified. We're talking about parents who write their children's college essays or hire others to do it for them.

This is not about corporal punishment or mental abuse. It's about parents attempting to insulate their children from hard work and from the reasonable consequences of their actions. And, yes, all of these things happen.

"I" am talking about it and others have discussed it so I don't know who "We" is. "You" keep discounting it in regards to this discussion and I keep telling you I believe its related and that the distrust led to the issues you mention above in many of those cases.  You can disagree with me but please don't tell me I am off topic. 

Please show proof that children who are insulated by their parents suffer some kind of consequences. I will look for proof that abuse causes parents to be over protective. 

I can certainly see something like this happening...

Some parent got screwed on a grade by a few points when he was a kid and fails to get into collage, decides that he will not let his ADHD kid get screwed by the same bullshit and places a bribe, kid grows up to be a engineer with poor spelling. Teacher complains that the kid cant spell and what is this world coming too, Kid has a prosperous life.

I'm sure you can provide a similar story to make your point about how a kid is abused by parents intervening too much, I'm sure it does happen

Rich kids parents bribe his way through school. Kid gets his first job but does not actually know how to do the work nor does he have a work ethic, kid gets fired and cant keep a job (Dad hands kid a baseball team, kid becomes president. lol ) 

What do you think is the driving force behind the majority of parents cheating if its not abuse? 
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Offline Ah.hell

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Re: Snowplow parents
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2019, 09:21:28 AM »
What do you think is the driving force behind the majority of parents cheating if its not abuse? 

Normal parental motivation to see there kids succeed? 

Offline superdave

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Re: Snowplow parents
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2019, 09:28:39 AM »
I do think a lack of hard data is a valid concern but I don't need data to know that if a 25 year old new employee has a parent harass their boss, the employer will not come away from that experience with a positive view of their employee.  I also don't need data to know that it isn't fair for someone to get grades or accreditation they don't deserve because of the influence of someone else. 

As to the outcomes of these students,  I can think of a few ways to measure this.  One might be mental health outcomes, and we do know that depression and other issues are on the rise in that population.  I also would think that the on time graduation rate at top tier universities, or thier drop out rate, might be increasing.

Lastly, regardless of how well a rich kid who got into harvard fares after graduation, that kid took up a spot that could have gone to someone more deserving. 

I'll see if i can dig up any hard data though https://www.amazon.com/How-Children-Succeed-Curiosity-Character-ebook/dp/B0070ZLZ1G  disucsses this issue with some data.  Apparently it's middle class kids who are most successful.]


https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/why-we-worry/201705/helicopter-snowplow-and-bubble-wrap-parenting  here's a link about how this sort of parenting creates kids that suffer anxiety at a higher rate than others and show other developmental delays.  There is a bibliography that cites the studies mentioned. 

It is possible that as adults these children do eventually learn the normal coping strategies for dealing with hardships but certainly they learn them later and probably less easily and effectively if they do learn them at all.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 09:42:06 AM by superdave »
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Snowplow parents
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2019, 11:23:52 AM »

What do you think is the driving force behind the majority of parents cheating if its not abuse?

Peer pressure and the privilege of the elite class.

Imagine how embarrassing it would be to Felicity if Gwenneth’s kids got into Harvard but her own kids couldn’t Even get into USC.


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Offline Captain Video

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Re: Snowplow parents
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2019, 01:15:05 PM »

What do you think is the driving force behind the majority of parents cheating if its not abuse?

Peer pressure and the privilege of the elite class.

Imagine how embarrassing it would be to Felicity if Gwenneth’s kids got into Harvard but her own kids couldn’t Even get into USC.


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who is more to blame for that, The parents or the school? I say its the school. Im sure this does happen but not by a majority, the overall concern is about the kids having a decent opportunity.

I do think a lack of hard data is a valid concern but I don't need data to know that if a 25 year old new employee has a parent harass their boss, the employer will not come away from that experience with a positive view of their employee.  I also don't need data to know that it isn't fair for someone to get grades or accreditation they don't deserve because of the influence of someone else. 

As to the outcomes of these students,  I can think of a few ways to measure this.  One might be mental health outcomes, and we do know that depression and other issues are on the rise in that population.  I also would think that the on time graduation rate at top tier universities, or thier drop out rate, might be increasing.

Lastly, regardless of how well a rich kid who got into harvard fares after graduation, that kid took up a spot that could have gone to someone more deserving. 

I'll see if i can dig up any hard data though https://www.amazon.com/How-Children-Succeed-Curiosity-Character-ebook/dp/B0070ZLZ1G  disucsses this issue with some data.  Apparently it's middle class kids who are most successful.]


https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/why-we-worry/201705/helicopter-snowplow-and-bubble-wrap-parenting  here's a link about how this sort of parenting creates kids that suffer anxiety at a higher rate than others and show other developmental delays.  There is a bibliography that cites the studies mentioned. 

It is possible that as adults these children do eventually learn the normal coping strategies for dealing with hardships but certainly they learn them later and probably less easily and effectively if they do learn them at all.

Who could possibly "deserve" to go to Harvard more than someone else? Why doesn't everyone have the same opportunity in learning?

An unfair uneven system was created and people will do whatever it takes to work around it.

Teachers and school officials are not employers, how you deal with them does not reflect how one would deal with ones boss later in life. Parents don't make pressuring phone calls to bosses, they make them to schools so that the kids have the opportunity to get hired by those bosses.  They want to make sure some over zealous teacher or admin does not ruin the kids life.
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: Snowplow parents
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2019, 01:16:55 PM »
I can't quote a source at the mo, but I've heard anecdotes of parents doing exactly that with their kid's bosses.
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