Poll

Is file piracy justified when you do it to get around region coding?

No, all piracy is theft
4 (13.8%)
No, but I do it anyway
2 (6.9%)
Yes, but only shows that are not available in my country
4 (13.8%)
Yes, it is NOT theft
11 (37.9%)
I don't know or have a different opinion
8 (27.6%)

Total Members Voted: 29

Author Topic: Is Piracy justified when you do it to get around region coding?  (Read 3787 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline PANTS!

  • One leg at a time.
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 11533
  • What seals? I auditioned for this job.
Re: Is Piracy justified when you do it to get around region coding?
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2019, 02:16:49 PM »
I don't understand how the region coding thing works.  I mean, if one region is paying more to get the content earlier, then someone in another region is cheating someone by bypassing it.  However, I find it hard to imagine that is how it works.  If I say I'm in a different region just so I can actually pay for content, it seems that it is the opposite of piracy.  It is bypassing a stupid system so that I could actually purchase the thing instead of stealing it.

I'm not saying Captain Video is wrong, just that I don't understand what he is saying.  Is my understanding that getting around region coding merely allows more consumers to actually purchase the products wrong?

Okay, let me try to look at it this way.  Maybe a subscription to Netflix in Australia costs less than a subscription in America specifically because shows are delayed.  But then, if I spoofed my region and had to subscribed at the higher American cost, I would still be paying for the better service.

Nope, I just don't see how getting around region coding could be seen as stealing or as harming the film/video industry. It sounds like it actually helps.

Is it ok to break the law because you don't agree with it?

This is confusing the cause with another effect.  It can be OK to break the law, and when it is, I often don't agree with the law.

Unequivocally yes, it can be morally just to break a law.
Now where I come from
We don't let society tell us how it's supposed to be
-Uptown, Prince 👉

The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds

Offline Calinthalus

  • Too Much Spare Time
  • ********
  • Posts: 6144
    • My Page
Re: Is Piracy justified when you do it to get around region coding?
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2019, 02:18:25 PM »

But in the VPN/Netflix scenario the show was viewed by a customer of Netflix.  The VPN doesn't block Netflix from knowing about the view, just knowing where the viewer actually was.  So the view was counted, so the people who worked on the show still get credited for the view.


It's illegal (probably), but not piracy.




Also
Is it ok to break the law because you don't agree with it?


Ever smoke dope or speed on the highway?

Yes and almost never if I can avoid it, its dangerous to others so stop.

I'm not taking a moral ground with the legal comments, I asked Billz a question and that was it. I'm not saying I am better than anyone, I'm just stunned that people still think this is ok, I used to be a pirate, I'm sorry I did it and I learned from my mistakes.
Fair enough, I just read that as using the legal comments as a moral judgement.  Probably my bad.
"I think computer viruses should count as life. Maybe it says something about human nature, that the only form of life we have created so far is purely destructive. Talk about creating life in our own image."
--Stephen Hawking

Online 2397

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2487
Re: Is Piracy justified when you do it to get around region coding?
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2019, 02:30:15 PM »
I think it's irrelevant and that it's the wrong question, as it usually is for this topic.

It should instead be; Is piracy a problem? And in turn, is it justified to spend resources on combating it? In particular law enforcement resources, government or government-approved surveillance, and all the potential violations of privacy and other abuses that it could lead to. Including the loss of competition. If privileged private entities get to lobby and dictate how IP is handled legally, that could prevent others from being able to establish themselves, especially with DRM and privately owned marketplaces dictating how you can buy content and where you can use it.

I suspect that in the vast majority of cases the answer is no. Unless someone's making money off of piracy and taking money that someone would be willing to spend on a non-pirated equivalent, how exactly is it that someone is losing money because of piracy? There's no hard relationship between downloads and sales. It's very different from the sale and theft of physical objects. Digitally, you either sell something or you don't. It doesn't go missing from the shelves, there's no damage to the product, no shrinkage at all.

Why aren't people buying what you're selling? Piracy? Piracy isn't stopping ever more money from being spent in the industries that could be associated with it. And money doesn't disappear, so if you are somehow losing money to piracy, where is that money going? Who is having more growth because of piracy, if you aren't having all the growth that you think you could have had without it?

I would much rather focus on how to use and maintain the internet as the global marketplace that it should be, than to help wealthy corporations track down people, mostly kids, to attempt to ruin their lives over one of the most benign acts I can think of. Copying and then decoding some bits.

Offline Calinthalus

  • Too Much Spare Time
  • ********
  • Posts: 6144
    • My Page
Re: Is Piracy justified when you do it to get around region coding?
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2019, 02:33:34 PM »
As to piracy in general.  I used to pirate a great deal.  I could pirate now and fill terabytes without risk.  VPN, TOR and proxies mean the risk to me is basically nothing.


However, I don't like it and for the most part never do it.  I have used VPN to view foreign media that's just not available in my country.  I could probably view it on YouTube just the same, but least using the VPN there is some accounting to the provider (BBC or whomever) that someone watched the show.  If I watch a Mock The Week from YouTube, nobody makes any money at all.


That all being said, I honestly don't think Spotify would exist today if piracy hadn't forced the hands of music labels.  They were dead set against any online distribution models (iTunes etc) and that just increased piracy.  The more content owners crack down on piracy, the worse it becomes.  Making their products available in a timely, convenient fashion at a reasonable price drives piracy way down.  GoT is highly pirated because HBO is expensive when compared to their competition.  My HBO add-on to Hulu costs more than my Hulu.  They also had the history of not having a streaming option if you didn't have a cable/sat package.  It's coming along.  You can watch any CW show on their app with commercials; most shows that have Hulu deals are available within a day or two.  Networks are catching up to the times.


I don't even Spotify.  I ripped CDs and stuff eons ago and currently just buy albums from the artists I like.  Not near the volume of attachment I used to have.  Not sure who got the money from my Bitches Brew album.
"I think computer viruses should count as life. Maybe it says something about human nature, that the only form of life we have created so far is purely destructive. Talk about creating life in our own image."
--Stephen Hawking

Online CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 10674
Re: Is Piracy justified when you do it to get around region coding?
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2019, 03:19:11 PM »
If I take your car then I have your car and you don't. That is theft.

If I watch your movie without your permission and without paying the royalty or fee you have set, you still have your movie and are still able to watch it, sell it, enjoy it, etc. That is not theft. It's piracy, it's parasitic it's immoral, but not theft.

If I copy your movie without your permission and make it available for others to use, for a fee, or for free, and they get the movie from me rather than from you, then that is theft (as I am taking income from you).

It's kind of like a patent.  If you patent a fancy cup holder for bicycles, and I read your patent application and make one for myself, I'm not stealing from you.

However, if I make one and sell it then I am stealing from you.

The same applies to software.

(click to show/hide)
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline Belgarath

  • Forum Sugar Daddy
  • Technical Administrator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 11794
Re: Is Piracy justified when you do it to get around region coding?
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2019, 03:22:38 PM »
So please define piracy and I'll explain whether or not I agree that region encoding is piracy.

If I use Netflix over a VPN, that view looks just like it's coming within the country (say great britain) to CBS.  Netflix pays CBS based on me viewing the thing in say Great Britain.

In my case, I can travel to Great Britain for basically free and so I could, for example, travel over there every week, watch Star Trek Discovery and come right back.  I don't equate this as stealing it without paying.  So what's the difference in my case from traveling to London, logging into Netflix and watching the show, then traveling home and using a VPN to achieve the same thing?

I generally agree with you, Captain Video, if I'm going to consume the content, I should remunerate the creators, I'm 100% on board with that.  If I'm viewing it in Great Britain, I am remunerating CBS just as if I was sitting there watching it in a hotel.  I would never, for example, go and download a Torrent of Star Trek: Discovery.  That truly is piracy.

#non-belief denialist

Offline Belgarath

  • Forum Sugar Daddy
  • Technical Administrator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 11794
Re: Is Piracy justified when you do it to get around region coding?
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2019, 03:26:27 PM »
I don't understand how the region coding thing works.  I mean, if one region is paying more to get the content earlier, then someone in another region is cheating someone by bypassing it.  However, I find it hard to imagine that is how it works.  If I say I'm in a different region just so I can actually pay for content, it seems that it is the opposite of piracy.  It is bypassing a stupid system so that I could actually purchase the thing instead of stealing it.

I'm not saying Captain Video is wrong, just that I don't understand what he is saying.  Is my understanding that getting around region coding merely allows more consumers to actually purchase the products wrong?

Okay, let me try to look at it this way.  Maybe a subscription to Netflix in Australia costs less than a subscription in America specifically because shows are delayed.  But then, if I spoofed my region and had to subscribed at the higher American cost, I would still be paying for the better service.

Nope, I just don't see how getting around region coding could be seen as stealing or as harming the film/video industry. It sounds like it actually helps.

Is it ok to break the law because you don't agree with it?

Quote the US law that one would be breaking if one uses a VPN in Great Britain to view content from netflix.
#non-belief denialist

Online 2397

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2487
Re: Is Piracy justified when you do it to get around region coding?
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2019, 04:22:05 PM »
GoT is highly pirated because HBO is expensive when compared to their competition.

It's also one of the most watched shows through legal channels. It would be surprising if one of the most pirated shows was something that was otherwise unknown.

Offline Tassie Dave

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2205
Re: Is Piracy justified when you do it to get around region coding?
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2019, 04:44:35 PM »
Piracy for the sake of getting media for free is illegal and wrong. Let me get that straight up front before my but ....

From the other thread that started this conversation:
I have said it before, and I will say it again, I do pirate TV shows BUT only for shows that I am paying for (I have pay TV, Netflix, Stan, etc) and only if the Australian TV channels delay the release here in Australia for more than a week (We can get shows months behind the US and UK). This is becoming less common. Most shows I like, I can watch, legally, a few hours after their US/UK release.

Like everything YMMV, but region blocking needs to disappear and the best way to hasten it is to bypass it.

Give me what I want, when I want it, in a format I want and let me pay for it. Charge me the extra you all like to slug Aussies with because we are so far away. I'll pay it.
Just don't fuck us Aussies over with delays, limited options just because you can.

Just about anything we do with media content other than playing it is against the laws that the industry have set.

Recording a TV program onto a VHS, DVD, DVR and keeping it on there after viewing it once is against the rules.
Stripping DRM off DVDs so you can load them onto a hard drive is against the rules. I've done this with all my DVDs so I can view them on my computer and/or iPad.
I used to make copies of my 3.5" floppy disks games and use the copy to protect the original disk (Also against the rules)

I did all this for convenience and to ensure I had a copy that would last for years.


Online brilligtove

  • Too Much Spare Time
  • ********
  • Posts: 7037
  • Ignorance can be cured. Stupidity, you deal with.
Re: Is Piracy justified when you do it to get around region coding?
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2019, 08:06:10 PM »
Find a way to let me buy your content. If you can't do that I won't buy your content.  I might still watch it though.
evidence trumps experience | performance over perfection | responsibility – authority = scapegoat | emotions motivate; data doesn't

Online CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 10674
Re: Is Piracy justified when you do it to get around region coding?
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2019, 08:15:20 PM »
I don't understand how the region coding thing works.  I mean, if one region is paying more to get the content earlier, then someone in another region is cheating someone by bypassing it.  However, I find it hard to imagine that is how it works.  If I say I'm in a different region just so I can actually pay for content, it seems that it is the opposite of piracy.  It is bypassing a stupid system so that I could actually purchase the thing instead of stealing it.

I'm not saying Captain Video is wrong, just that I don't understand what he is saying.  Is my understanding that getting around region coding merely allows more consumers to actually purchase the products wrong?

Okay, let me try to look at it this way.  Maybe a subscription to Netflix in Australia costs less than a subscription in America specifically because shows are delayed.  But then, if I spoofed my region and had to subscribed at the higher American cost, I would still be paying for the better service.

Nope, I just don't see how getting around region coding could be seen as stealing or as harming the film/video industry. It sounds like it actually helps.

Is it ok to break the law because you don't agree with it?

Quote the US law that one would be breaking if one uses a VPN in Great Britain to view content from netflix.

It's in here somewhere.
https://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/legal_e.htm#GATT94
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline Belgarath

  • Forum Sugar Daddy
  • Technical Administrator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 11794
Re: Is Piracy justified when you do it to get around region coding?
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2019, 08:31:01 PM »
Doubt it.  Not going to read thousands of pages to try to find it either.

#non-belief denialist

Online CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 10674
Re: Is Piracy justified when you do it to get around region coding?
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2019, 09:49:46 PM »

Quote the US law that one would be breaking if one uses a VPN in Great Britain to view content from netflix.
https://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf

Here you go this is a summary so it’s only 10 pages. You’re basically using technology to circumvent copyright protection.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 10674
Re: Is Piracy justified when you do it to get around region coding?
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2019, 10:57:38 PM »
Quote the US law that one would be breaking if one uses a VPN in Great Britain to view content from netflix.


Chapter 12 - Circular 92 | U.S. Copyright Office

Quote
1201. Circumvention of copyright protection systems2
(a) Violations Regarding Circumvention of Technological Measures.—(1)(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline Tassie Dave

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2205
Re: Is Piracy justified when you do it to get around region coding?
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2019, 10:59:00 PM »

Quote the US law that one would be breaking if one uses a VPN in Great Britain to view content from netflix.
https://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf

Here you go this is a summary so it’s only 10 pages. You’re basically using technology to circumvent copyright protection.

Using a VPN isn't illegal for the reasons that are being stated. They are only breaking the Terms Of Service of their provider (Netflix)

The courts usually fall on the side of the consumer when we use technology to access content we have legally paid for. Strip DRM etc so we can actually move our content and view/play/access it.

Sony tried to tell Playstation owners in the 90s that they couldn't chip their Playstations to play out of region discs. Of course it was illegal to play pirate discs in the chipped machine, but the actual modification wasn't illegal. As proven in court.

 

personate-rain
personate-rain