Author Topic: editorial on common core at fox news.  (Read 807 times)

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Online superdave

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editorial on common core at fox news.
« on: April 01, 2019, 06:02:13 PM »
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/common-core-has-given-us-snowflakes-instead-of-students

This is so full of logical fallacies Steve could use it for the rest of the lifetime of the podcast.

But this is my favorite line.

Quote
Common Core has infiltrated both our public and private schools over the last several years and has left parents in the dust, scrambling for reinforcements to help them solve otherwise simple math problems.

For example, simple multiplication, addition and subtraction problems can no longer be learned from the back of flashcards. You must now show how you arrived at the answer. 

Good Heavens!!!  How DARE they teach students why multiplication works! 
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Offline seamas

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Re: editorial on common core at fox news.
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2019, 06:11:08 PM »
A lot of thew hand wringing / backlash I hear about Common Core seems to come from people who have very sketchy information (usually third hand) and are not parents (or if they are, they are grandparents).

I think the biggest gripe I would have about Common Core would be that the implementation was clumsy, and I have seen some sloppy work in the textbook. However, [anecdote] my kids seem to be learning math far better than their parents. [/anecdote]

I recall when my son was learning about rounding figures he was given a series of question as to what place you would do the rounding. In one scenario you were ordering hats for a classroom, but unfortunately the "correct" answer would have you rounding down--which would leave a couple students without hats.

In the other question it was a about how many times the plane could cross the country on X amount of fuel. For this one, the correct answer would be to round up, which would make the plane *not quite* make it to Los Angeles on that 10th trip.

Offline Sawyer

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Re: editorial on common core at fox news.
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2019, 09:07:09 PM »
However, [anecdote] my kids seem to be learning math far better than their parents. [/anecdote]

I have yet to see someone complaining about Common Core that doesn't manage to reveal this fact at some point. 

I can kind of understand the frustration, but I'm also amazed at how all the C+ math students I went to high school will openly admit that they are terrified of being outpaced by a 5th grader.  They either don't know how apparent their fragility is, or they do know but still hate Barrack Saddam Osama so much that they will object to any policy he was involved with, their own child's education outlook be damned.

EDIT:  Read the rest of the article.  Forget about logical fallacies, what is it with the never-ending parade of conservative columnists who simply cannot write?  I have no illusions about William F. Buckley or George Will ever having been shining beacons of truth and brilliance, but they could at least make it clear that writing was their full-time career.  Pick some of the most boorish rants from our politics section in the last year and I guarantee they are still more engaging reading than anything Ms. Appell is churning out.  She might make it into my Final Four of the Media Madness tournament (along with Megan McCardell, Jonah Goldberg, and the entire New York Post), although with enough time I would have no trouble seeding an entire 64 person bracket.

(sorry if this now belongs in Politics)
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 09:46:42 PM by Sawyer »

Online superdave

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Re: editorial on common core at fox news.
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2019, 09:18:19 PM »
i posted this on facebook and parents are saying it isn't fair for a kid to get points taken off for the"right" answer  but a) the question clearly stated the way to get full credit and the kid didn't do it.  b)  its 2019 there are dozens of ways to get a computer to multiply 5*3.  You have to be purposefully obtuse to deny that it's more important for a kid to understand why 5*3 is 15 instead of the fact that it is 15.  It's much easier to apply the concept the word problemswhen you understand it more thoroughly and its also easier to extrapolate the concept once you get to algebra.  if you don't understand that 5*3 is 5 threes or three fives, how can you grasp what 5x is?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 09:24:04 PM by superdave »
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Online Eternally Learning

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Re: editorial on common core at fox news.
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2019, 05:44:03 AM »
From my experience, I think a lot of parents are frustrated by it because these new methods for teach math (which are objectively better than rote memorization, I think) are so foreign to them that it's hard for them to help even their first graders with math homework.  I've never been a math whiz, but I honestly found myself stuck sometimes just simply not knowing what the teachers expected from my kids.  They've taught the kids all these methods to solve the problems that work, but require you to google what it is when it simply says "use X system to solve the problem."  I'm open-minded about new methods, I'm fine with having to figure stuff out myself, and I actually appreciate what they were trying to do, but damn some nights were a struggle; especially when I know the answer, know perfectly valid ways to find the answer, and I know my kid does too, but since we have to use this specific math tool that my kid can't describe or fully remember and I'm completely unfamiliar with it.

It's not hard for me to see many parents coming up against something like that and then just blaming Obama or whatever, and leaving it at that.

Online Ah.hell

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Re: editorial on common core at fox news.
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2019, 09:27:16 AM »
I think there are a couple of lines of criticism of Common Core as noted by others.
A.  They teach math in a way that is suppose* to be supported by science but is different from the way it was taught in the past and is therefor counter intuitive for parents.  Brings to mind the New Math of the 60s and 70s.
B.  There's an ideological opposition to centralizing education, I'm sympathetic to but if there is evidence that it works better then we should go with it. Anyrate, there seems to an outrage circle in the background acting like its a terrible idea.  It doesn't actually seem to be that important to anyone but when there's a slow news day it surfaces. 
C.  I think B can be a bit amplified by another factor.  US public schools are not that great and are full of questionable fads and like many professions, it takes the death of old practitioners for science based approaches to get adopted widely.  This has engendered a bit of skepticism in the institutions.

*My understanding(which isn't much) is that the method recommended by common core is more intuitive and better matches the way we actually do math in our brains and that there have been studies that show kids can pick up the basics quicker than the old memorize your multiplication tables.  When my kids are approaching that phase in there life, I'll likely learn more. 



EDIT:  Read the rest of the article.  Forget about logical fallacies, what is it with the never-ending parade of conservative columnists who simply cannot write?
My guess is that its that the market for opinion has grown so much that pretty much anyone that can string a sentence together can get a job.  I suspect there is a similar thing on the left. Some of the stuff form Huff Po is pretty unreadable.  Then there's shows like the Young Turks that come accross as politics by a high school AV club. 
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 09:36:54 AM by Ah.hell »

Online superdave

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Re: editorial on common core at fox news.
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2019, 09:59:24 AM »
First I don't even really know what she is trying to get at.  There are no real arguments against common core in that article.  It's a lot of political ravings that barely have anything to do with education.

but to clarify something about common core.   Technically, "common core"  just refers to the list of standards that students are supposed to master.  However, there is some kernel of truth to the argument that common core does require some common pedagogical skills since some of the standards are very specific to strategies.  The standard in the example was

"Use multiplication and division within 100 to solve word problems in situations involving equal groups, arrays, and measurement quantities, e.g., by using drawings and equations with a symbol for the unknown number to represent the problem."   http://www.corestandards.org/Math/Content/3/OA/A/3/

So to correctly answer the question and meet this standard you were required to answer it in a specific way.  I don't have any issue with this at all provided the instructions are clear that this is the sort of solution the teacher is looking for. 

The other problem quoted in the article looks like a teacher penalized a student for getting an exact answer instead of estimating, but this is totally proper if the goal of the assignment is to show students the usefulness of estimating. 
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Offline Desert Fox

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Re: editorial on common core at fox news.
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2019, 04:45:27 PM »
I believe in Incredibles  II, Mr Incredible had problems with helping his son with math.
He grumbled but in the end he looked it up. 
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: editorial on common core at fox news.
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2019, 11:27:11 PM »
I had to show my work from as soon as I knew what work was. That was in the 1970s.
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Re: editorial on common core at fox news.
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2019, 12:49:46 AM »
I had to show my work from as soon as I knew what work was. That was in the 1970s.

It's not about showing work, my school was the same way.  It's about forcing the children to show certain methods of working the problem out which are drastically different from what we were taught and are as a result, quite unintuitive. 

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: editorial on common core at fox news.
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2019, 01:25:31 AM »
I had to show my work from as soon as I knew what work was. That was in the 1970s.

It's not about showing work, my school was the same way.  It's about forcing the children to show certain methods of working the problem out which are drastically different from what we were taught and are as a result, quite unintuitive.

Fair enough. But the worst criticism I have heard is that "my child learned a different method so I can't help them with their homework".

For a start, don't do their homework for them. That's not what it's for. Second, get them to teach you. One of the best ways to learn something is to try to teach it to someone else. Third, I've had a look at one or two of the methods taught in the Common Core curriculum, and they make sense. "Different" does not mean "worse". Fourth, I learned a different method of subtraction from the methods my parents used, and there was no outcry over that. Fifth, surely it makes sense to have consistency across the country, yeah? Even here in Australia it's common for a person to grow up in one state, go to university in another, and settle down to work in a third. And we've only got eight states (and territories). You don't want to have different standards of education and therefore knowledge in all the different places you might live and work. That would be stupid.
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Re: editorial on common core at fox news.
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2019, 01:51:39 AM »
I had to show my work from as soon as I knew what work was. That was in the 1970s.

It's not about showing work, my school was the same way.  It's about forcing the children to show certain methods of working the problem out which are drastically different from what we were taught and are as a result, quite unintuitive.

Fair enough. But the worst criticism I have heard is that "my child learned a different method so I can't help them with their homework".

For a start, don't do their homework for them. That's not what it's for. Second, get them to teach you. One of the best ways to learn something is to try to teach it to someone else. Third, I've had a look at one or two of the methods taught in the Common Core curriculum, and they make sense. "Different" does not mean "worse". Fourth, I learned a different method of subtraction from the methods my parents used, and there was no outcry over that. Fifth, surely it makes sense to have consistency across the country, yeah? Even here in Australia it's common for a person to grow up in one state, go to university in another, and settle down to work in a third. And we've only got eight states (and territories). You don't want to have different standards of education and therefore knowledge in all the different places you might live and work. That would be stupid.

I'm not disagreeing with you.  I'm just offering a different perspective that might explain some people's very negative reaction that doesn't rely just on politics (though clearly, that's hardly an insignificant factor).  I suspect that maybe they overlooked parental involvement a bit when rolling out their program.

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: editorial on common core at fox news.
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2019, 01:59:42 AM »
I had to show my work from as soon as I knew what work was. That was in the 1970s.

It's not about showing work, my school was the same way.  It's about forcing the children to show certain methods of working the problem out which are drastically different from what we were taught and are as a result, quite unintuitive.

Fair enough. But the worst criticism I have heard is that "my child learned a different method so I can't help them with their homework".

For a start, don't do their homework for them. That's not what it's for. Second, get them to teach you. One of the best ways to learn something is to try to teach it to someone else. Third, I've had a look at one or two of the methods taught in the Common Core curriculum, and they make sense. "Different" does not mean "worse". Fourth, I learned a different method of subtraction from the methods my parents used, and there was no outcry over that. Fifth, surely it makes sense to have consistency across the country, yeah? Even here in Australia it's common for a person to grow up in one state, go to university in another, and settle down to work in a third. And we've only got eight states (and territories). You don't want to have different standards of education and therefore knowledge in all the different places you might live and work. That would be stupid.

I'm not disagreeing with you.  I'm just offering a different perspective that might explain some people's very negative reaction that doesn't rely just on politics (though clearly, that's hardly an insignificant factor).  I suspect that maybe they overlooked parental involvement a bit when rolling out their program.

Was New Math in the 60s any different?

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Online superdave

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Re: editorial on common core at fox news.
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2019, 09:24:59 AM »
https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf

an essay on teaching math.  I don't agree with it completely.  But the problem is that we have parents who totally over value the ability to do math by rote (a skill totally obsolete now that we all walk around with computers in our pockets) instead of valuing actual understanding of how numbers, shapes, equations are related and describe the universe.
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Re: editorial on common core at fox news.
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2019, 10:20:17 AM »
I'm 100% on board with that.  Rote math gives you a limited skill set but teaching an understanding of how math works gives you the ability to adapt and a window to learning new math.