Author Topic: Episode #717  (Read 4001 times)

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Offline Tassie Dave

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Re: Episode #717
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2019, 03:59:47 PM »
I understand the US calling it "The Wave". Americans were aware of "The Wave" before Mexico '86 World Cup, as it was started in US sport a few years earlier.
But for the rest of us, the first time we saw it was from Mexico.

It was funny watching the first few attempts of it in Australia shortly after. Eventually it took off.
It was hilarious to be at the MCG (for footy or cricket) with a huge crowd (80,000 to 100,000) they'd get the Mexican Wave going and when it got to the stuffy members stand it would stop dead, only to start from the next stand over. The members would get booed.

It's political correctness gone too far. I do think CSM is an outlier in her views on this term.

What exactly do you think her views are?

Her view that calling it "The Mexican Wave" is racist or, at best, sounds racist. Which it clearly isn't. Not all terms with ethnic or National adjectives are racist.
I agree we should stop using terms that promote false or derogatory stereotypes of groups of people.

I just find it strange that she called her British colleague out for using it, when she doesn't even know the history of the term and made him stressful that he might use it.

Yes and yes. She told her friend that it was racist.

Mexican is not a race. And if you're of Mexican heritage the US government considers you white.

Racism specifically refers to race. But what about those members of various groups who have been discriminated against in the same way. Say the Irish in the early 20th century US; or Oklahomans fleeing the dust bowl in the 1930s?

The discrimination and prejudice against them was similar to racism, but racist isn't the word to describe that behavior.

I'm just not sure what the term should be.

Xenophobic

While I don't think the term "The Mexican Wave" is either racist or xenophobic, Trump and certain redneck groups do use Mexican in a racist way. Using it for anyone from south of the US border, whether they're from Mexico, or Central and South America. Or even Americans who have a Latin American heritage or even a Native American Heritage.

Offline Ah.hell

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Re: Episode #717
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2019, 04:28:30 PM »
Mexican is not a race. And if you're of Mexican heritage the US government considers you white.
Its a little more complex than that.  The US government considers Latino to be an ethnicity, the only one they tend to track as White of Latino descent or non-white of Latino Descent.  Any rate, in issues like these I like to mention that my grand father's naturalization papers indicate his race as Irish with British nationality and my grandmother's indicate race as white and nationality as Irish.  The difference being a few years and Irish independence.   

Actually it might be Hispanic that they track. 

Also, I have been corrected it is racist to call it the Mexican wave as the Mexicans have appropriated it from the Canadians.

Still pretty silly for Carla to think its racist, apparently just because "Mexican" was used as an adjective? 

Its funny, for all the flac that RW got for her politics, I find Carla's moderately more annoying.  I still prefer the element of diversity she brings to the show though. The north cligue of easterners need a foil.     The clique of north easterners need a foil.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 09:15:07 AM by Ah.hell »

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #717
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2019, 05:15:48 PM »
Mexican is not a race. And if you're of Mexican heritage the US government considers you white.
Its a little more complex than that.  The US government considers Latino to be an ethnicity, the only one they tend to track as White of Latino descent or non-white of Latino Descent.  Any rate, in issues like these I like to mention that my grand father's naturalization papers indicate his race as Irish with British nationality and my grandmother's indicate race as white and nationality as Irish.  The difference being a few years and Irish independence.   

Actually it might be Hispanic that they track. 

Sort of. The racial category is "white." The other racial category is "white, non-hispanic."

But the race is the same.

Quote
Also, I have been corrected it is racist to call it the Mexican wave as the Meicans have appropriated it from the Canadians.

Still not racist. Maybe incorrect, but not racist. Just as it's not racist to call a taco "Mexican Food"

I believe the Wave began at the University of Washington. Not Canada and not Mexico. Although Canadians and Mexicans often take credit for it.

Quote

Still pretty silly for Carla to think its racist, apparently just because "Mexican" was used as an adjective? 

I can't fault her for being sensitive. Just why call it the "Mexican Wave?" it's no different from any other wave done in stadiums. There's no Canadian wave or American wave or Brazilian wave.
Quote
Its funny, for all the flac that RW got for her politics, I find Carla's moderately more annoying.  I still prefer the element of diversity she brings to the show though. The north cligue of easterners need a foil.

RW and Clara both brought/bring a lot of value to the podcast. I'm not sure it would be worth listening to without them. I definitely enjoy the shows where Cara isn't there a lot less.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #717
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2019, 05:23:40 PM »

Wave (audience) - Wikipedia


Quote
Krazy George Henderson perfected the wave at National Hockey League games, followed later by the earliest available video documentation of a wave, which he led on October 15, 1981, at a Major League Baseball game in Oakland, California.[2][3][4][5][6][7] This wave was broadcast on TV, and George has used a videotape of the event to bolster his claim as the inventor of the wave.[2][3] On October 31, 1981, a wave was created at a UW football game against Stanford at Husky Stadium in Seattle, and the cheer continued to appear during the rest of that year's football season.[5] Although the people who created the first wave in Seattle have acknowledged Krazy George's wave at a baseball stadium, they claimed to have popularized the phenomenon.

Quote
The 1986 FIFA World Cup in Mexico was broadcast to a global audience, and the wave was popularized worldwide after featuring during the tournament.[16][17][18] The finals in Mexico was the first time that most people living outside North America had seen the phenomenon. As a result, English speakers outside of North America call the phenomenon a "Mexican wave".[18][17] In Germany, Italy, and other countries the wave is called "la ola" (or simply ola) from the Spanish word for "wave",[19] while in Portuguese-speaking countries, such as Brazil, it is alternatively translated to a onda, more commonly
  • ondão (augmentative) or simply onda, but a ola is also used.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #717
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2019, 08:45:29 PM »
Presumably a cheaper movie would also have cheaper dubbers.

I don't think I've willingly watched anything that's dubbed since children's cartoons, but I preferred to switch to English if I could. Donald Duck was more intelligible in English.

I had a Mexican friend (when I lived there) who was studying linguistics at the university. One of the subjects she studied was movie translation. Whether the object is to dub or to do subtitles, the translators don't get a script of the movie to work from. They just get the movie itself. The result is sometimes very peculiar translations when a word sounds to the translator's ear like something else. I saw a movie in Mexico, in English with subtitles. There was a reference to "coming down the mountain in a white-out" but the subtitle said, in Spanish, that they were coming down the mountain "en La Casa Blanca" (in the White House). The subtitled version made no sense whatsoever. The translator heard "white-out" and didn't know what that meant, and so heard instead "white house."
Daniel
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"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline Phobosanddeimos

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Re: Episode #717
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2019, 09:41:33 PM »

Still pretty silly for Carla to think its racist, apparently just because "Mexican" was used as an adjective? 

Its funny, for all the flac that RW got for her politics, I find Carla's moderately more annoying.  I still prefer the element of diversity she brings to the show though. The north cligue of easterners need a foil.

I miss the snark… If Becks had spouted uninformed PC garbage like that you'd just shrug and think 'Meh.. she's drunk'.  :)

And no verbal diarrhoea, and could get to a point in under five minutes... thankfully podcasts have fast forward.

… pretty despicable for Cara on Twit to deny what she said...  Is she going to APOLOGISE to her 'Brrrrriddish' (ex)friend?  Furrrrrrr Shuuurrrrrr. rrrrrrrrrrr


Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #717
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2019, 10:07:43 PM »
Presumably a cheaper movie would also have cheaper dubbers.

I don't think I've willingly watched anything that's dubbed since children's cartoons, but I preferred to switch to English if I could. Donald Duck was more intelligible in English.

I had a Mexican friend (when I lived there) who was studying linguistics at the university. One of the subjects she studied was movie translation. Whether the object is to dub or to do subtitles, the translators don't get a script of the movie to work from. They just get the movie itself. The result is sometimes very peculiar translations when a word sounds to the translator's ear like something else. I saw a movie in Mexico, in English with subtitles. There was a reference to "coming down the mountain in a white-out" but the subtitle said, in Spanish, that they were coming down the mountain "en La Casa Blanca" (in the White House). The subtitled version made no sense whatsoever. The translator heard "white-out" and didn't know what that meant, and so heard instead "white house."
That’s similar to the story of why Jerry Lewis was considered a comic genius in France. The translated wrote the dubbing scripts was a very funny fellow.

He would basically write his own script and line and it was very popular in France   


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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline gebobs

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Re: Episode #717
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2019, 08:32:21 AM »
An other note on the PC front along the lines of "the Ukraine" vs. "Ukraine". According to some Ukrainian listeners of Stuff You Missed In History Class, they prefer the spelling "Kyiv" to "Kiev" (which is presumably the russofication).

Offline gebobs

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Re: Episode #717
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2019, 08:35:46 AM »

I miss the snark… If Becks had spouted uninformed PC garbage like that you'd just shrug and think 'Meh.. she's drunk'.  :)

I miss Rebecca. Why not bring her back as a guest rogue or even for an interview? Have they fallen out?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 09:37:38 AM by gebobs »

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #717
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2019, 09:31:39 AM »
Presumably a cheaper movie would also have cheaper dubbers.

I don't think I've willingly watched anything that's dubbed since children's cartoons, but I preferred to switch to English if I could. Donald Duck was more intelligible in English.

I had a Mexican friend (when I lived there) who was studying linguistics at the university. One of the subjects she studied was movie translation. Whether the object is to dub or to do subtitles, the translators don't get a script of the movie to work from. They just get the movie itself. The result is sometimes very peculiar translations when a word sounds to the translator's ear like something else. I saw a movie in Mexico, in English with subtitles. There was a reference to "coming down the mountain in a white-out" but the subtitle said, in Spanish, that they were coming down the mountain "en La Casa Blanca" (in the White House). The subtitled version made no sense whatsoever. The translator heard "white-out" and didn't know what that meant, and so heard instead "white house."
That’s similar to the story of why Jerry Lewis was considered a comic genius in France. The translated wrote the dubbing scripts was a very funny fellow.

He would basically write his own script and line and it was very popular in France   

I can totally believe this!

Back when Dick Gregory was doing stand-up, he once said, as near as I remember his words: "Maybe Khrushchev doesn't really hate us. Maybe it's just his translators." And in fact, his famous line "We will bury you" is a mistranslation from a Russian expression meaning "We will outlive you." Whether it's movies or politics or books or instructions for assembling furniture, translation is a very inexact business.
Daniel
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-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline Ah.hell

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Re: Episode #717
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2019, 09:42:26 AM »
Mexican is not a race. And if you're of Mexican heritage the US government considers you white.
Its a little more complex than that.  The US government considers Latino to be an ethnicity, the only one they tend to track as White of Latino descent or non-white of Latino Descent.  Any rate, in issues like these I like to mention that my grand father's naturalization papers indicate his race as Irish with British nationality and my grandmother's indicate race as white and nationality as Irish.  The difference being a few years and Irish independence.   

Actually it might be Hispanic that they track. 

Sort of. The racial category is "white." The other racial category is "white, non-hispanic."

But the race is the same.

(click to show/hide)

RW and Clara both brought/bring a lot of value to the podcast. I'm not sure it would be worth listening to without them. I definitely enjoy the shows where Cara isn't there a lot less.
Huh, I could swear there were two categories for hispanic, its been awhile since I filled out one of those forms though. 

I totally agree with you on Cara/RW.   I just thought it was mildly amusing that I notice Cara's politics more than I noticed RWs but I haven't heard mention of the same kind of distaste being expressed for her politics that I recall for RWs.  It could still be there, just not on this forum, which is where I heard it before. 

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #717
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2019, 01:03:57 PM »
RW and Clara both brought/bring a lot of value to the podcast. I'm not sure it would be worth listening to without them. I definitely enjoy the shows where Cara isn't there a lot less.

I'd probably still listen, for the hard science, but I absolutely agree that Rebecca made the show much better than it was without her, and Cara does the same. If it were possible to bring Rebecca back to replace either Evan or Jay, I think the show would be even better than it is by a big margin. Because what the two women brought/bring to it are very different things. Rebecca brought a point of view that is otherwise sadly lacking, and Cara brings the knowledge and experience of an actual scientist as well as being a trained, professional science communicator.
Daniel
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"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #717
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2019, 01:09:30 PM »
I miss Rebecca. Why not bring her back as a guest rogue or even for an interview? Have they fallen out?

I know absolutely nothing about this, but I think that Rebecca got a lot of hate over her views and her advocacy of making conferences safe places for women. Maybe she just decided enough was enough. Again, this is pure speculation. I'd love for her to be back on the show. At least as a guest, since whatever led to her leaving the show would probably prevent her from re-joining it full time.
Daniel
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"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline Phobosanddeimos

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Re: Episode #717
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2019, 07:37:03 PM »
I totally agree with you on Cara/RW.   I just thought it was mildly amusing that I notice Cara's politics more than I noticed RWs but I haven't heard mention of the same kind of distaste being expressed for her politics that I recall for RWs.  It could still be there, just not on this forum, which is where I heard it before.

There's no 'Episode #718' thread yet so I'll put this here...

OMG

So what Logical Fallacy is it when Cara won't go back and actually LISTEN to what she said so that she can continue LYING about what she said?

It's here - https://www.theskepticsguide.org/podcast/sgu/717
at 01:19:31

Cara Says -
"Wow that is *SO* racist..." 
then the colonials go on about how people back in the civilised world must be behind the times.  :-*
Don't be scumbags, just suck it up and APOLOGIZE.

OOMG
The large Australian bird (not Rebel Wilson (that should piss off the PC nazis))
It's Emu - Eμ
Not Emooooo (are you five year olds?)

Maybe learn how to pronuncificate vooooowels? Writ yursulf ur meeeeemo urboot doin a prrimmmmer curse an spurkin prapurly?  :love:

Offline Bill K

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Re: Episode #717
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2019, 06:10:25 AM »
 I think that one ought to consider why they're using certain adjectives, like Mexican. If its usage is to assist in identifying a friend of mine to another friend, that can be understandable. However, for example, if the usage of ethnic adjectives serves no purpose (i.e. "A black man robbed Turkey Hill last night, have you heard?"), again I think the speaker needs to think on why exactly they feel the need to identify such qualities. If there is no point while relaying information to point out race, or ethnicity, or sexual orientation, etc. I don't see why it is necessary. I know context is important. However, very selectively using context in such cases just may be rooted in subtle or even subconscious prejudice. I hope that made sense. I don't believe the term "Mexican wave" is racist at all. The context in which it might be being used can be racist, though.

 As for Cara, I'll have to relisten to what she said initially and what she is saying in the latest episode. I know she's defending herself now, but I can't remember quite what she said to begin with.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 06:17:54 AM by Bill K »
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