Author Topic: Episode #717  (Read 4597 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 2397

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3041
Re: Episode #717
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2019, 06:59:43 AM »
There's no 'Episode #718' thread yet so I'll put this here...

OMG

So what Logical Fallacy is it when Cara won't go back and actually LISTEN to what she said so that she can continue LYING about what she said?

It's here - https://www.theskepticsguide.org/podcast/sgu/717
at 01:19:31

Cara Says -
"Wow that is *SO* racist..." 
then the colonials go on about how people back in the civilised world must be behind the times.  :-*
Don't be scumbags, just suck it up and APOLOGIZE.


When I saw your first tumultuous comment about it, I thought I should go back and listen to it, and cite exactly what was said. But I didn't feel like doing it then.

The context is that Steve was apologizing for using "the Ukraine" instead of "Ukraine", having had it pointed out to him that one is a Soviet term, the other is a country.

Quote
Cara: "You know what it reminds me of, I have a really good friend, and I don't want to call him out, he's, he's British, and he was doing a science thing on his instagram...

Steve: Yeah.

Cara: and, he was at some big school event. And he was like 'Look, we all did the Mexican wave', and I reached out to him, you know like the wave that people do at stadiums, and I reached out to him, and I was like...

Evan: I think it's just called the wave.

Cara: 'wow, that is so racist'. And he was like 'oh my god, that's racist? That's what everyone in the UK calls it'.

Evan: Wow.

Steve: Really?

Cara: And I was like 'What‽' And I was like, it's probably actually not racist at all, like it's just one of those things, but to our ears it sounds really racist. And then he came to the US, and did some events in southern California, and he was like 'I was so freaked out that I was going to say the Mexican wave, knowing that there were so many you know actual Mexican kids...

Steve: Yeah.

Cara: in the audience'. Like, and I'm like 'No, yeah, in the US it's just the wave'.

Steve: It's the wave.

Evan: Right.

Steve: It's like, it's kind of like saying Montezuma's revenge. You know.

Cara: Yeah.

Steve: You know, there's things, there's things that, it is,

Evan: Indian summer.

Steve: there has, there has been a cultural change,

Cara: Mhm.

Steve: yeah, where, where like an Indian giver, there's like all these...

Cara: Yeah.

Steve: phrases in our colloquial speech that do have racist, you know, roots.

Cara: Of course.

Steve: It still crops up, is, there, I still say, like, to gyp somebody out of something. That's a total slur! Yeah, against Gypsies. But you don't, like you just don't realize it.

Cara and Evan: (overlapping with the previous)

The main thing I (re)learned from this is that it takes a lot of effort to pick up every single word from an unscripted chat. Though I could probably have made it easier on myself by using an editor to set up loops.

TL;DR: I'm pointing out that after Cara quoted herself saying "that is so racist", she then downplayed it (or quoted herself downplaying it). Saying that "it's probably actually not racist at all".

And then Steve talked about how you can use racist terms in colloquial speech without realizing their racist origin. Which didn't really follow from what Cara said, but from what Steve said before Cara brought up her tangent.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 10:17:45 AM by 2397 »

Offline The Latinist

  • Cyber Greasemonkey
  • Technical Administrator
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8141
Re: Episode #717
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2019, 08:01:08 AM »
OOMG
The large Australian bird [...] It's Emu - Eμ
Not Emooooo (are you five year olds?)

I understand that the name of the bird is pronounced ē′myo͞o in Australia, it is far more commonly (mis?)pronounced ē′mo͞o in the United States.  It is not exactly charitable to attribute the pronunciation to being ‘five year olds’.  And while, in this case, I will grant some primacy to the Australian pronunciation of an Australian species, the fact is that pronunciations vary geographically and it is not usually just to label one such pronunciation ‘correct.’ Furthermore, the word derives from the Portuguese word ema (rhea), which provides no etymological justification for either pronunciation.

Finally, as one who has studied Greek extensively, I would point out to you that the Greek letter μ (μυ) was almost certainly pronounced by the ancient Greeks mo͞o, not myo͞o, and both pronunciations are considered correct in English. When one get so angry in one’s pedantry as to resort to name-calling, one really should be surer of one’s facts.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline lucek

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 138
Re: Episode #717
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2019, 08:52:48 AM »
So bob made a slight booboo on episode 718. The dark ring isn't an image of the event horizon. It's the lowest stable orbit. Below that point matter just falls in making the acreation disk much more sparce and therefore dim. The effect of light bending around the event horizon is a seperate but interesting effect.
You have the power, but. . .
Power is just energy over time and. . .
Energy is just the ability to do work.

Offline Phobosanddeimos

  • Off to a Start
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Episode #717
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2019, 10:00:21 AM »


When I saw your first tumultuous [Meeeeeeoooowwww] comment about it, I thought I should go back and listen to it, and cite exactly what was said. But I didn't feel like doing it then.

The context is that Steve was apologizing for using "the Ukraine" instead of "Ukraine", having had it pointed out to him that one is a Soviet term, the other is a country.


"the Ukraine" instead of "Ukraine" was pointed out by George Hrab.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hrab
"Hrab was born in Belleville, New Jersey and grew up speaking Ukrainian and surrounded by Ukrainian culture"

AFAIK he's never even lived in Ukraine.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18233844
***"There is no definite article in the Ukrainian or Russian languages"*** ["the"]
But -
"After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukrainians probably decided that the article denigrated their country [by identifying it as a part of Russia] and abolished 'the' while speaking English, so now it is simply Ukraine.
"There are many other country names that are habitually referred to with "the", such as Congo, Gambia, Yemen, Lebanon, Sudan, Netherlands, Philippines and Bahamas."

So if some peNdant tries to do some PC posing by whining at you for saying "the Ukraine" or "the Netherlands" come back at them by saying that they are being 'racist' by not tolerating your languages use of a 'definite article'.   :-*



And then Steve talked about how you can use racist terms in colloquial speech without realizing their racist origin.
she then downplayed it (or quoted herself downplaying it). Saying that "it's probably actually not racist at all".


Thankyou.
My "tumultuous" comment was to point out out that there is ***NO*** "racist origin".

Personally I can't stand the PC Thought Police throwing out their false 'racist' accusations over every tiny little uninformed NON-thing.
Is that what quackademics do all day?

.
It is not exactly charitable to attribute the pronunciation to being ‘five year olds’.

Finally, as one who has studied Greek extensively, I would point out to you that the Greek letter μ (μυ) was almost certainly pronounced by the ancient Greeks mo͞o, not myo͞o, and both pronunciations are considered correct in English. When one get so angry in one’s pedantry as to resort to name-calling, one really should be surer of one’s facts.

Thats because here children (‘five year olds’) are taught about Vowels and how to pronounce them "A..E..I..O..U.."
It's "U" not "OOO"

This is not an ancient Greek podcast, it's a *Science* Podcast.
Where μ is used extensively -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(letter)#Use_as_symbol

Does Steve Novella think that Cerns Large Cattle Collider generates MoooooOns?

>"one really should be surer of one’s facts."
Yes one should, shouldn't one :/

Offline 2397

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3041
Re: Episode #717
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2019, 10:10:17 AM »
To be fair, I didn't need to use that word. At first I used it more generically, and then I realized it was your comment that I was referring to.

Online daniel1948

  • Happy Man in a Boat
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 9387
  • I'd rather be paddling
Re: Episode #717
« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2019, 10:45:44 AM »
Does Steve Novella think that Cerns Large Cattle Collider generates MoooooOns?

Probably not, but I'll bet @werecow has something to say on the matter.  ;D
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 10:49:27 AM by daniel1948 »
Daniel
----------------
"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline stands2reason

  • Empiricist, Positivist, Militant Agnostic
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 10807
Re: Episode #717
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2019, 11:18:40 AM »

Offline The Latinist

  • Cyber Greasemonkey
  • Technical Administrator
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8141
Re: Episode #717
« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2019, 12:50:22 PM »
Thats because here children (‘five year olds’) are taught about Vowels and how to pronounce them "A..E..I..O..U.."
It's "U" not "OOO"

This is one of the stupidest comments I've read in quite some time. The name of letter is really quite irrelevant to its pronunciation in context.  Or do you perhaps insist that the word 'one' rhymes with 'own' on the same principle?

Quote
Does Steve Novella think that Cerns Large Cattle Collider generates MoooooOns?

>"one really should be surer of one’s facts."
Yes one should, shouldn't one :/

This is not a matter of lack of education, but of regional variation in pronunciation. Your accent pronounces a long U following a consonant 'YOO'; Steve and I, who live in a different geographic area, have an accent that pronounces the vowel "OO."  We pronounce "tune" TOON and "June" JOON, not TYOON and JYOON.

Indeed, I would be very surprised if Steve pronounces the word 'muon' the same way you do; he most likely pronounces it something like MEW-on or MOO-on; definitely not MYOO-on.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline skepticahjumma

  • Off to a Start
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: Episode #717
« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2019, 02:48:34 PM »
I want to quibble with one thing the guest said during the racism/language discussion. He said if he refers to someone as “my son’s Filipino friend,” he not being racist; he’s just using a descriptor. I agree.

And yet, IMO the use of the descriptor in itself highlights the argument that white is the “norm” and everything else is “other.” Does the guest also say “my son’s white friend?” Not criticizing...just making an observation. Like how we’re finally moving away from saying “woman engineer” instead of just “engineer.” I think “Filipino friend” is kind of similar.

Offline Phobosanddeimos

  • Off to a Start
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Episode #717
« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2019, 02:57:01 PM »
To be fair, I didn't need to use that word. At first I used it more generically, and then I realized it was your comment that I was referring to.

That's cool :)


This is one of the stupidest comments I've read in quite some time. The name of letter is really quite irrelevant to its pronunciation in context.  Or do you perhaps insist that the word 'one' rhymes with 'own' on the same principle?

To point out the insanely obvious... that is because I am *writing* it, not *speaking* it (FFS!)

This is not a matter of lack of education, but of regional variation in pronunciation.

No... it's a matter of the *context*... Go and actually listen to what was said -
http://media.libsyn.com/media/skepticsguide/skepticast2019-04-13.mp3
at 00:06:45

Cara starts making fun of people who can SPEAK ENGLISH "It makes me a little twitchy"
Steve says "It's like an ice pick in my frikkin heart"

If you want to 'spurk urrrrmurrrkurrrn' then suit yourself...
But don't make fun of people who are able to speak THEIR OWN LANGUAGE.
Go on, waddle around OZ saying "EeeeeMooooo" (those 'smiles' you see are gritted teeth).

That and the bullying false 'racist' accusations from PC Thought Police clearly wilfully ignorant of anything that happens outside of their 50 states just got a bit annoying and insulting.





Offline Phobosanddeimos

  • Off to a Start
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Episode #717
« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2019, 03:01:30 PM »
Does Steve Novella think that Cerns Large Cattle Collider generates MoooooOns?

Probably not, but I'll bet @werecow has something to say on the matter.  ;D

And remember Rebecca's Kitten Collider? … generated MeeewOns  :)

Offline Tassie Dave

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2473
  • Go Tiges
Re: Episode #717
« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2019, 03:51:53 PM »
At least they got Melbourne right  ;)

Then butchered our 2 iconic birds' names.  ??? It's not Coo-Kah-Burra. It's Cook (as in make food) -ah-Burra

ee-moo is just wrong  ???



Online daniel1948

  • Happy Man in a Boat
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 9387
  • I'd rather be paddling
Re: Episode #717
« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2019, 04:31:23 PM »
Languages are full of regional variations. We U.S. Americans find some British pronunciations quite amusing, and most of us cannot understand a word of the English spoken in Yorkshire or Glasgow. There are no "right" or "wrong" pronunciations. I love the old joke that "ghoti" should be pronounced "fish." Enough; women; attention. If you learn Spanish in Madrid or Mexico you probably will not understand a word of the Spanish spoken in Seville or Cuba.

Phonetically-written languages, like English, are descriptive of the pronunciation at the time and place where the spelling was established. It's just silly to say that because a word was first written down in South Carolina, that everyone in New Hampshire is pronouncing it "wrong."
Daniel
----------------
"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline lonely moa

  • A rather tough old bird.
  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5035
Re: Episode #717
« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2019, 04:36:43 PM »
At least they got Melbourne right  ;)

Then butchered our 2 iconic birds' names.  ??? It's not Coo-Kah-Burra. It's Cook (as in make food) -ah-Burra

ee-moo is just wrong  ???

I can't wait till the Rogues start trying to pronounce Kiwi town names other than Christchurch or Auckland.
"Pull the goalie", Malcolm Gladwell.

Offline Alex Simmons

  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1065
Re: Episode #717
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2019, 04:40:55 PM »
This is not an ancient Greek podcast, it's a *Science* Podcast.

I don't consider SGU a science podcast. It's a podcast about skepticism that sometimes has lay person discussions about science topics. But rarely do we hear from a science subject matter experts, aside from topics where Steve or Cara are SMEs.

I really wish they would bring in SMEs when discussing science topics. I've little interest in listening to a non-expert rogue gush on about some "news".

 

personate-rain