Author Topic: An atheist is advised to end a relationship with his religious partner.  (Read 2735 times)

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Offline bachfiend

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I agree to some extent, but at the risk of whataboutism, I'm guessing that the list of countries you could possibly visit is quite short if the whaling issue alone can blacklist a country.

Not really.  There’s more countries than I could ever visit which don’t engage in whaling.  And I don’t travel for travel’s sake.

Right, but I meant issues other than whaling that governments allow for, fund, or fail to prevent, that you could equally apply responsibility to the entire country for.

Which I wouldn't necessarily argue against, but I struggle to think of a country that is clean in that sense. Iceland is usually my go to as a country that is less involved in the horrors of humanity, they're less concerned about the needs of the financial elite, and they're one of very few countries that are even considering stopping adults from mutilating male infants. But of course they do whaling.

For Australians, Japan is the most apparent whaling nation.  And also the most obstinate.  I find that it makes sense for me to blacklist Japan.  I agree that other countries engage in whaling, including Iceland.  There’s opposition to whaling within Iceland, which also has a whale watching sector.  Next year, I’m doing a cruise hopefully to see the Northern Lights, which departs from Reykjavík.  I was planning on doing a short Iceland tour beforehand (3 or 4 days), but I’m having second thoughts.  I might stopover in Europe instead, if I can find a Ring Cycle somewhere there.  I haven’t decided.
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Offline John Albert

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I’ve more or less blacklisted Japan because of their whaling, which I regard as a crime against humanity

How dare you criticize the national cultures of other countries?  ;)

For what it's worth, I agree about the whaling. I wouldn't call it a "crime against humanity" though. (A crime against cetaceanity, perhaps?) 

« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 03:13:06 PM by John Albert »

Offline bachfiend

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I’ve more or less blacklisted Japan because of their whaling, which I regard as a crime against humanity

How dare you criticize the national cultures of other countries?  ;)

For what it's worth, I agree about the whaling. I wouldn't call it a "crime against humanity" though. (A crime against cetaceanity, perhaps?)

I regard whaling as a crime against humanity, as I would call any action that threatens the survival of any iconic species such as whales, so that future generations of humans wouldn’t be able to see them, as crimes against future generations of humans.

Whaling isn’t culture.  It’s uncultured.
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Offline The Latinist

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I don’t think that it can reasonably be argued that a small harvest of certain species of whales threatens them with extinction. There may be (and I think are) other reasons to oppose whaling; but species like the minke whale and bowhead, among others, would not be threatened even by a quota of several thousand per year.

I also strongly disagree that whaling cannot be part of a people’s culture. There are indigenous tribes, for instance, whose way of life was for millennia centered around the whale hunt. It was an essential part of their diet, their toolmaking, and even their artistic expression. For this reason I do not oppose the continuation of well-managed whaling by indigenous peoples using traditional methods.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline John Albert

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I regard whaling as a crime against humanity, as I would call any action that threatens the survival of any iconic species such as whales, so that future generations of humans wouldn’t be able to see them, as crimes against future generations of humans.

Only "iconic" species? How do you arrive at that designation?


Whaling isn’t culture.  It’s uncultured.

Well that's a hot take. The practice of whaling has been central to the survival of some cultures, but to be fair the overall impact of those traditional practices is not comparable to the widespread destruction of whales on an industrial scale.

I may chide you for your hard line on whaling, I'm not a totally squishy cultural relativist either. There are some cultural practices (such as capital punishment, sanctioned vengeance, violence in the name of honor, oppression of women, ritual disfigurement of children, and deliberate indoctrination of children into false beliefs) which I also consider fundamentally immoral. Call me a self-righteous imperialist white devil if you like, but I'm morally incapable to budge on those opinions.

Which is another reason why I would never marry or willingly sire children with a partner who might want to raise our children in some religion before they're mature enough to willingly choose their conscience.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 08:27:32 PM by John Albert »

Offline bachfiend

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I regard whaling as a crime against humanity, as I would call any action that threatens the survival of any iconic species such as whales, so that future generations of humans wouldn’t be able to see them, as crimes against future generations of humans.

Only "iconic" species? How do you arrive at that designation?


Whaling isn’t culture.  It’s uncultured.

Well that's a hot take. The practice of whaling has been central to the survival of some cultures, but to be fair the overall impact of those traditional practices is not comparable to the widespread destruction of whales on an industrial scale.

I may chide you for your hard line on whaling, I'm not a totally squishy cultural relativist either. There are some cultural practices (such as capital punishment, sanctioned vengeance, violence in the name of honor, oppression of women, ritual disfigurement of children, and deliberate indoctrination of children into false beliefs) which I also consider fundamentally immoral. Call me a self-righteous imperialist white devil if you like, but I'm morally incapable to budge on those opinions.

Which is another reason why I would never marry or willingly sire children with a partner who might want to raise our children in some religion before they're mature enough to willingly choose their conscience.

I don’t care about your opinion.  Anti-whaling has been central to my environmental concerns for over 40 years.  It’s the main reason why I became a vegetarian.

The Japanese engage in unnecessary commercial whaling, which is insignificant economically or nutritionally.  Blacklisting the country is the only action personally I can take.
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Offline John Albert

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You may not care about my opinion, but I respect your commitment to what you feel is right.

Not sure what you mean by "blacklist," but it seems kind of reductive to punish an entire country for the actions of one bad industry.

Offline bachfiend

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You may not care about my opinion, but I respect your commitment to what you feel is right.

Not sure what you mean by "blacklist," but it seems kind of reductive to punish an entire country for the actions of one bad industry.

It means I’m not going to visit Japan.  Nor am I going to buy products made in Japan.  The Japanese government is responsible for the actions of the whaling industry.  Individual Japanese and Japanese corporations are responsible for the actions of the Japanese government.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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I may chide you for your hard line on whaling, I'm not a totally squishy cultural relativist either. There are some cultural practices (such as capital punishment, sanctioned vengeance, violence in the name of honor, oppression of women, ritual disfigurement of children, and deliberate indoctrination of children into false beliefs) which I also consider fundamentally immoral. Call me a self-righteous imperialist white devil if you like, but I'm morally incapable to budge on those opinions.

No need to be ashamed. If we are on the path to accepting cruel or inhumane practices because "it's their culture", then we are on a very worrying path indeed. My impression otherwise is that society, at least here, has gone the other direction during the past few decades or so, not accepting cruel or inhumane practices with reference to culture. We are not completely there yet, but it's getting way better.

Quite often you can see individuals with backgrounds from these cultures being at the frontline in fighting such practices.

And to clarify, while I disapprove of whaling, I don't consider it to be nearly as bad as the things you mentioned.

Which is another reason why I would never marry or willingly sire children with a partner who might want to raise our children in some religion before they're mature enough to willingly choose their conscience.

I would consider a mutual agreement that the child gets to choose religion (or no religion) when being old enough to do so to probably be necessary.
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Offline bachfiend

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I may chide you for your hard line on whaling, I'm not a totally squishy cultural relativist either. There are some cultural practices (such as capital punishment, sanctioned vengeance, violence in the name of honor, oppression of women, ritual disfigurement of children, and deliberate indoctrination of children into false beliefs) which I also consider fundamentally immoral. Call me a self-righteous imperialist white devil if you like, but I'm morally incapable to budge on those opinions.

No need to be ashamed. If we are on the path to accepting cruel or inhumane practices because "it's their culture", then we are on a very worrying path indeed. My impression otherwise is that society, at least here, has gone the other direction during the past few decades or so, not accepting cruel or inhumane practices with reference to culture. We are not completely there yet, but it's getting way better.

Quite often you can see individuals with backgrounds from these cultures being at the frontline in fighting such practices.

And to clarify, while I disapprove of whaling, I don't consider it to be nearly as bad as the things you mentioned.

Which is another reason why I would never marry or willingly sire children with a partner who might want to raise our children in some religion before they're mature enough to willingly choose their conscience.

I would consider a mutual agreement that the child gets to choose religion (or no religion) when being old enough to do so to probably be necessary.

Disapproving of a social practice achieves absolutely nothing.  My blacklisting Japan because of its whaling achieves not much more if anything, but at least it gives me the satisfaction of doing something even if very little.  I also donate to Greenpeace, for their anti-whaling campaign (I disapprove of their other campaigns, such as their anti-GMO one).

I regard whaling as being very important.  It’s been central to my environmental concerns for over 40 years, even before global warming became an issue for me.
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Offline John Albert

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My blacklisting Japan

I still don't understand what your use of the word "blacklisting" is supposed to mean in this context. It sure sounds ominous, but I'm scratching my head.

Does it mean you're avoiding Japan as a tourist destination? Boycotting all consumer goods that originate from Japan? Refusing to eat sushi or watch anime?

What about the other countries that also harbor whaling industries, like Iceland, Norway and China? Have you "blacklisted" them, too?

Where did you get your cell phone and computer from?


I also donate to Greenpeace, for their anti-whaling campaign (I disapprove of their other campaigns, such as their anti-GMO one).

After spending a summer working for Greenpeace and witnessing firsthand how blatantly they lie to trick people into donating, I wouldn't give them a red cent.


It’s been central to my environmental concerns for over 40 years, even before global warming became an issue for me.

The fact that you've been doing something for a long time is not a reasonable excuse to avoid questioning it. 
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 05:54:40 PM by John Albert »

Offline bachfiend

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My blacklisting Japan

I still don't understand what your use of the word "blacklisting" is supposed to mean in this context. It sure sounds ominous, but I'm scratching my head.

Does it mean you're avoiding Japan as a tourist destination? Boycotting all consumer goods that originate from Japan? Refusing to eat sushi or watch anime?

What about the other countries that also harbor whaling industries, like Iceland, Norway and China? Have you "blacklisted" them, too?

Where did you get your cell phone and computer from?


I also donate to Greenpeace, for their anti-whaling campaign (I disapprove of their other campaigns, such as their anti-GMO one).

After spending a summer working for Greenpeace and witnessing firsthand how blatantly they lie to trick people into donating, I wouldn't give them a red cent.


It’s been central to my environmental concerns for over 40 years, even before global warming became an issue for me.

The fact that you've been doing something for a long time is not a reasonable excuse to avoid questioning it.

China doesn’t engage in whaling. 

I’m vegetarian.  I don’t eat sushi anyway.  Sushi made in Australia isn’t coming from Japan anyway.

Anime is a waste of time. 

I don’t have a cell phone. 

Japan is a particularly bad example of a whaling nation.  To my knowledge no other whalers sail to the opposite side of the world to the Antarctic to slaughter whales. 

Iceland and Norway don’t make products I can blacklist, so I can’t make a decision to blacklist them today as I can with Japan.  Whether I should visit Iceland or Norway as a tourist is a decision I’d have to make when the time comes.

I’ve also been questioning my opinion about whaling for 40+ years.  It hasn’t changed.  It’s a barbaric practice.  Nothing will change my opinion about that.  Whaling is barbaric, so Japan is a barbaric country.

I don’t want to visit Japan anyway.  There’s nothing there I want to see that I can’t see on the Internet.  Foreign travel is just conspicuous consumption, often more trouble than it’s worth.   I can buy the products I want (not necessarily the ones I need - there’s very few things I actually need) from other sources.

It’s a personal choice.
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Offline John Albert

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Gateway issues caused this post to be re-submitted multiple times. Sorry.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 07:26:22 PM by John Albert »

Offline John Albert

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Gateway issues caused this post to be re-submitted multiple times. Sorry.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 07:25:14 PM by John Albert »

Offline John Albert

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Gateway issues caused this post to be re-submitted multiple times. Sorry.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 07:25:19 PM by John Albert »

 

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