Author Topic: An atheist is advised to end a relationship with his religious partner.  (Read 2693 times)

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Offline John Albert

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Gateway issues caused this post to be re-submitted multiple times. Sorry.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 07:25:29 PM by John Albert »

Offline John Albert

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Japan is a particularly bad example of a whaling nation.  To my knowledge no other whalers sail to the opposite side of the world to the Antarctic to slaughter whales.

The Antarctic is not the opposite side of the world from Japan. It's only a few thousand miles, though they have to navigate around Australia. 


Iceland and Norway don’t make products I can blacklist, so I can’t make a decision to blacklist them today as I can with Japan.

So you're using the word "blacklist," to mean "boycott." Got it.


Whether I should visit Iceland or Norway as a tourist is a decision I’d have to make when the time comes.

So, you regard Japan as "barbaric" and off-limits because it has a whaling industry, but for some reason Iceland or Norway are still open to consideration? Why the double standard?


Whaling is barbaric, so Japan is a barbaric country.

Seems like a radical hypergeneralization to vilify an entire country as "barbaric" over a single hunting practice.

I believe that executing prisoners is barbaric, but I'd never use that word to malign every single country that practices capital punishment. Countries amount to more than the nadir of their worst laws.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 07:37:17 PM by John Albert »

Online bachfiend

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Japan is a particularly bad example of a whaling nation.  To my knowledge no other whalers sail to the opposite side of the world to the Antarctic to slaughter whales.

The Antarctic is not the opposite side of the world from Japan. It's only a few thousand miles, though they have to navigate around Australia. 


Iceland and Norway don’t make products I can blacklist, so I can’t make a decision to blacklist them today as I can with Japan.

So you're using the word "blacklist," to mean "boycott." Got it.


Whether I should visit Iceland or Norway as a tourist is a decision I’d have to make when the time comes.

So, you regard Japan as "barbaric" and off-limits because it has a whaling industry, but for some reason Iceland or Norway are still open to consideration? Why the double standard?


Whaling is barbaric, so Japan is a barbaric country.

Seems like a radical hypergeneralization to vilify an entire country as "barbaric" over a single hunting practice.

I believe that executing prisoners is barbaric, but I'd never use that word to malign every single country that practices capital punishment. Countries amount to more than the nadir of their worst laws.

Japan to the Antarctic is more than a few thousand miles.  I boycott visiting Japan (not that I have any interest in doing so) and Japanese products because I’ve blacklisted Japan.  Countries that execute prisoners are barbaric.  Many American states have capital punishment in their laws, largely supported by Republicans.  I’d regard America to be barbaric, particularly Republicans, but capital punishment isn’t such an important issue for me as whaling.  And as I noted, the thought of foreign travel is losing its appeal.  It’s often more trouble than it’s worth.  I won’t be visiting Norway.  I don’t know about Iceland.  I can’t boycott Norwegian or Icelandic products now because they don’t make any products I buy now.  If I ever decide in the future to visit Iceland or Norway, they might have ceased whaling by then.
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Offline John Albert

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Japan to the Antarctic is more than a few thousand miles.

It's 13,930 kilometers, or 8,656 miles.


capital punishment isn’t such an important issue for me as whaling

Wow. Killing whales is worse than killing humans... hot take there.


I won’t be visiting Norway.  I don’t know about Iceland.  I can’t boycott Norwegian or Icelandic products now because they don’t make any products I buy now.  If I ever decide in the future to visit Iceland or Norway, they might have ceased whaling by then.

I just find it... noteworthy I guess, that you've drawn such a hard line against Japan—even going so far as vilify the entire country as "barbaric"—but you've taken no such hard stance against Iceland or Norway. You even consider the possibility of visiting Iceland, despite the fact that they too engage in the "barbaric" practice of whaling.

Why the double standard? Why do you not regard Iceland and Norway as equally "barbaric" as Japan?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 08:15:38 PM by John Albert »

Online bachfiend

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capital punishment isn’t such an important issue for me as whaling

Wow. Killing whales is worse than killing humans... hot take there.


I won’t be visiting Norway.  I don’t know about Iceland.  I can’t boycott Norwegian or Icelandic products now because they don’t make any products I buy now.  If I ever decide in the future to visit Iceland or Norway, they might have ceased whaling by then.

I just find it... "noteworthy" that you've drawn such a hard line against Japan—even going so far as vilify the entire country as "barbaric"—but you've taken no such hard stance against Iceland or Norway. You've even reserved the possibility of visiting Iceland despite the fact that they too engage in whaling.

Why the double standard? Why do you not regard Iceland and Norway as "barbaric" as Japan?

Yes, I do regard Iceland and Norway as barbaric.  But I can’t boycott their products now, as I can with Japan. 

Capital punishment is barbaric, but it’s not as much an issue for me as whaling.  There are many more humans on Earth than there are whales.  Capital punishment isn’t going to cause extinction of humans.  Whaling might cause the extinction of whales, besides being a cruel practice.  If humans were executed by being shot with arrows and forced to drag a cart around for 20 minutes, I’d equate capital punishment to whaling.

I’m bemused that you’re so upset to take offence at my deciding not to engage in the conspicuous consumption of travelling to Japan or buying Japanese products I can get elsewhere if I want them.
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Offline arthwollipot

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After spending a summer working for Greenpeace and witnessing firsthand how blatantly they lie to trick people into donating, I wouldn't give them a red cent.

I stopped supporting Greenpeace after they vandalised a plant research facility in my hometown.


Anime is a waste of time.

In your opinion.

I don’t have a cell phone.

You say that like it's something that you're proud of.

It’s a personal choice.

No-one's questioning your right to make personal choices. Some of us are questioning your motives and reasoning behind the choices you make.
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Offline stands2reason

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capital punishment isn’t such an important issue for me as whaling

Wow. Killing whales is worse than killing humans... hot take there.

Anime is a waste of time.

In your opinion.

Y'all posting in a troll thread.

Offline arthwollipot

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Y'all posting in a troll thread.

Bachfiend isn't a troll. He just has some... distinct opinions.
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Offline John Albert

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If humans were executed by being shot with arrows and forced to drag a cart around for 20 minutes, I’d equate capital punishment to whaling.

A human is executed by getting locked in a steel box for 20 years, psychologically tortured with hope through a drawn-out appeals process, forced to watch the queue of condemned inmates sent one after another to their own deaths, in full knowledge that the day approaches when he  himself will get strapped to a gurney and injected with poison.

The horrors which we routinely visit upon each other are often far worse than what we do to other animals.


I’m bemused that you’re so upset to take offence at my deciding not to engage in the conspicuous consumption of travelling to Japan or buying Japanese products I can get elsewhere if I want them.

I'm not upset and I'm not offended. I just find it a little weird, that's all.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 05:09:41 AM by John Albert »

Online bachfiend

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Quote from: bachfiend link=topic=51117.msg9623095#msg9623095
If humans were executed by being shot with arrows and forced to drag a cart around for 20 minutes, I’d equate capital punishment to whaling.

A human is executed by getting locked in a steel box for 20 years, psychologically tortured with hope through a drawn-out appeals process, forced to watch the queue of condemned inmates sent one after another to their own deaths, in full knowledge that the day approaches when he  himself will get strapped to a gurney and injected with poison.


I’m bemused that you’re so upset to take offence at my deciding not to engage in the conspicuous consumption of travelling to Japan or buying Japanese products I can get elsewhere if I want them.

I'm not upset and I'm not offended. I just find it a little weird, that's all.

I agree it’s more sensible (and cheaper) to sentence a person to life in prison rather than sentencing a person to capital punishment if you’re going to allow years’ long appeals processes.  Capital punishment is just retribution.

You must be upset and offended to post numerous comments in response to my noting that I’m never going to visit Japan or buy Japanese products I can get elsewhere because of their whaling (and I don’t intend to visit Japan anyway).
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Offline John Albert

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I agree it’s more sensible (and cheaper) to sentence a person to life in prison rather than sentencing a person to capital punishment if you’re going to allow years’ long appeals processes.  Capital punishment is just retribution.

I never said anything about lifetime prison sentences being more sensible or cheaper, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that an exhaustive due process was part of the problem.

What I said was that capital punishment is a barbaric practice, and an argument can be made that the prolonged psychological and physical torture that we as a society inflict on death row inmates is far worse than the slaughter of a marine mammal.


You must be upset and offended to post numerous comments...

I am not the slightest bit upset or offended by your opinion about Japan, despite your obvious efforts to project those negative emotions onto me. My motivation for posting "numerous comments" is purely a courtesy to you, because you've continued the conversation.

The only feeling I have is curiosity at your inconsistency on the subject.

You severely excoriated Japan for killing whales, calling it "a barbaric country" and declaring it "blackballed," but you totally disregarded Norway and Iceland in that rant. When I followed up with questions about Norway and Iceland, you said those countries don't produce anything you want to buy anyway. Then you speculated that Norway and Iceland might discontinue their whaling practices someday, and said you don't care much for Norway but visiting Iceland was not out of the question. I find that double standard quite puzzling.

(Iceland, by the way, has been every bit as politically dicey about their whaling practices as the Japanese have, reneging on ban agreements and continuing their practice under the pretense of "scientific research." Norway, on the other hand, has always been quite matter-of-fact about their objections to the ban.)

Anyway, this digression is super off-topic. If you want to continue, let's take it to the new thread about Whaling.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 04:38:21 PM by John Albert »

Online bachfiend

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I agree it’s more sensible (and cheaper) to sentence a person to life in prison rather than sentencing a person to capital punishment if you’re going to allow years’ long appeals processes.  Capital punishment is just retribution.

I never said anything about lifetime prison sentences being more sensible or cheaper, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that an exhaustive due process was part of the problem.

What I said was that capital punishment is a barbaric practice, and an argument can be made that the prolonged psychological and physical torture that we as a society inflict on death row inmates is far worse than the slaughter of a marine mammal.


You must be upset and offended to post numerous comments...

I am not the slightest bit upset or offended, despite your obvious efforts to project those negative emotions onto me. My motivation for posting "numerous comments" is a courtesy to you, because you've continued the conversation.

The only "feeling" I have is curiosity at your inconsistency on the subject.

You severely excoriated Japan for killing whales, calling it "a barbaric country" and declaring it "blackballed," but you totally disregarded Norway and Iceland in that rant. When I followed up with questions about Norway and Iceland, you said those countries don't produce anything you want to buy anyway. Then you speculated that Norway and Iceland might discontinue their whaling practices someday, and admitted that visiting Iceland was not out of the question. I find that double standard quite puzzling.

(Iceland, by the way, has been every bit as politically dicey about their whaling practices as the Japanese have, reneging on ban agreements and continuing their practice under the pretense of "marine biology research." Norway, on the other hand, has always been quite matter-of-fact about their objections to the ban.)

It’s human to be inconsistent.  But Japan is a relatively barbaric country compared to many other countries.  It engages in commercial whaling and calls it research.  It hasn’t apologised for its war crimes.  It produces products I could buy if I wanted to, but I can buy them elsewhere, so I do.  I won’t visit Japan because I don’t want to.  Even if they stopped whaling, I still don’t want to. 

But anyway.  Would you approve of capital punishment if it was immediate?  That there wasn’t a prolonged appeal process?  The person being executed would be spared the pronged mental torture.

I personally think that capital punishment is wrong, regardless.  But I don’t regard it in the same league as whaling.  It’s a personal opinion.  I’ll visit America and buy American products, but I won’t visit Japan or buy Japanese products.
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Offline John Albert

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Japan is a relatively barbaric country compared to many other countries.  It engages in commercial whaling and calls it research.  It hasn’t apologised for its war crimes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

The US has a long list of war crimes for which it has not only failed to apologize, but even has some for which our leaders have steadfastly refused to apologize.

Does that, plus allowing the death penalty, meet the threshold of designating the US a "barbaric country"?


Would you approve of capital punishment if it was immediate? That there wasn’t a prolonged appeal process?  The person being executed would be spared the pronged mental torture.

No. I believe it's barbaric to execute prisoners as punishment, regardless of methodology.

As I already said in my last post, the due process of appeals is not the problem.

The mental torture of imminent death always has been a component of capital punishment, but killing prisoners would still be barbaric even if the condemned were somehow kept unaware that they had it coming.


I personally think that capital punishment is wrong, regardless.  But I don’t regard it in the same league as whaling.  It’s a personal opinion.  I’ll visit America and buy American products, but I won’t visit Japan or buy Japanese products.

The idea that killing whales is worse than torturing and killing humans still seems rather outrageous to me.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 07:44:52 AM by John Albert »

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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bachfiend, would you consider visiting the Faroe Islands (not an independent country, but it has a lot of autonomy), that also engages in whaling? What about Denmark, that does not itself engage in whaling, but whose aforementioned autonomous territory does?

I consider whaling bad, but I would not blacklist Japan over it. I don't think Japan can be reduced to whaling.

As for the US, it certainly has its dirty laundry, but I don't blacklist that country either. I have visited it in the past, I will very likely visit it at some point in the future again.
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Online bachfiend

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bachfiend, would you consider visiting the Faroe Islands (not an independent country, but it has a lot of autonomy), that also engages in whaling? What about Denmark, that does not itself engage in whaling, but whose aforementioned autonomous territory does?

I consider whaling bad, but I would not blacklist Japan over it. I don't think Japan can be reduced to whaling.

As for the US, it certainly has its dirty laundry, but I don't blacklist that country either. I have visited it in the past, I will very likely visit it at some point in the future again.

Why is my personal decision not to visit Japan, or buy Japanese products (if I can get them elsewhere), because of their cynical decision to engage in commercial whaling under the guise of research facilitated at the highest level by the Japanese government, receiving so much criticism?

I’m not saying that no one should visit Japan or buy Japanese products or visit Japan.  It’s a personal decision.  I can refuse now not to buy Japanese products to make my displeasure explicit.  I can’t make my displeasure explicit at Iceland, Norway or Faroe Islands whaling now because they don’t make products I want to buy.

This year I had the opportunity of doing an organised music tour from Amsterdam to Bergen.  I eventually dropped it, partly because of the itinerary and partly because of Norway’s whaling, visiting Germany instead (including 11 nights in the Ruhr city of Duisburg, which I thought was going to be a disaster, but actually turned out to be the highlight of my trip). 

Next year, I’m doing a cruise in the Arctic departing Reykjavík, hoping to see the Northern Lights. I’m still trying to decide whether I’ll add a short Iceland tour beforehand.  I probably won’t.  The only place I want to see in Iceland is the join between the American and the European plates.

I’d never heard of the Faroe Islands, so visiting them is never likely to be on my very short bucket list of places to visit (which is becoming shorter as I age, and I’m finding long distance travel becoming increasingly more bother than it’s worth).

America has a lot of dirty laundry, but it doesn’t engage in whaling, which personally is very important.  I’d consider visiting America, if I can find a reason for doing so.  Travel for travel’s sake has no appeal for me.  I was thinking of visiting Chicago next year for their Ring Cycle.  I won’t, deciding for the ‘local’ one in Brisbane, which is much closer and more comfortable to reach.
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