Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]

[Ron Obvious]

The tactics of the Winterfell defenders were absolutely moronic. Remember that -until the Red Witch showed up unexpectedly to fire the anraks(?) - they were going to send the Dothraki cavalry charging headlong at the undead hordes with weapons that couldn't even harm them.  I know very little about mediaeval battle tactics, but even I realised this episode was absurd. Giving up the defensive advantage of the castle to charge the enemy in the open is something Robert Baratheon might have done. Oh, and they didn't even have boiling pitch to pour onto the undead climbing the castle walls? Also, what poor use of your air power. Why didn't dragonfire harm the Night King?

Remember also that every Dothraki and unsullied life thrown away for nothing is going to add to the enemy's strengths.

You're facing an enemy who can raise the dead, and it doesn't occur to you that hiding in a crypt is not a good idea?

And that's just for starters.  The more I think about this episode, the more ridiculous I think it is.

[The Latinist]

One could pretty easily, even as a layman, devise a better battle plan. Primarily, they should have stayed inside the castle, banked the inside of the walls and gate, lined the entire wall with soldiers carrying obsidian-tipped spears, and filled the entire interior of the castle with archers firing obsidian-tipped arrows over the walls in volleys.

But even if you wanted to meet them on the field you could have devised a much better plan. Unsullied take the center, lining up far from the walls, and fall back in an organized way (as they do in the episode); Dothraki armed with obsidian-pointed spears and split in two groups on left and right perform a flanking maneuver (that is, after all, what cavalry are for). Surround the dead, keep them hemmed in as much as possible, and then bring in the dragons.

And for fuck’s sake get Dany some armor.

[Harry Black]

One could pretty easily, even as a layman, devise a better battle plan. Primarily, they should have stayed inside the castle, banked the inside of the walls and gate, lined the entire wall with soldiers carrying obsidian-tipped spears, and filled the entire interior of the castle with archers firing obsidian-tipped arrows over the walls in volleys.

But even if you wanted to meet them on the field you could have devised a much better plan. Unsullied take the center, lining up far from the walls, and fall back in an organized way (as they do in the episode); Dothraki armed with obsidian-pointed spears and split in two groups on left and right perform a flanking maneuver (that is, after all, what cavalry are for). Surround the dead, keep them hemmed in as much as possible, and then bring in the dragons.

And for fuck’s sake get Dany some armor.

Yep.
I fucking love that Greyworm wore his helmet!
Military professionalism gets me hot!!

The common answer to the battle plan is that the show needed spectacle, blahblahblah.
But...just write a brief contrivance as to why they had to go out and face them. The writers just arent trying, other than doing what the fans most want to see and what they least expect (as long as it doesnt conflict with what they want to see).

So much of what has been set up has been wasted too. Like man made dragon fire and making use of the dothraki (instead of just wasting them all on a meat grinder). The dothraki have not had any development as characters, we didnt get to see their adjustment to the cold weather or thoughts on the seven kingdoms or even their role in the battle even though they all rode knowingly to their death.
There wasnt one rider who wasnt 100% sold on their battle philosophy and had some doubts?
Instead, the designated white leader is the only one to come back and I get some plucky orphan scene last episode that didnt pay off in any way.

But yes. At least Dany had time to get her winter wardrobe made before flying north on a moments notice last season to save Jon (and then having a suitable change of clothes for the ocean crossing).

[Calinthalus]

It was idiotic.  However, I did like the tension of watching the lighted swords slowly blinking out in the distance as it all got quiet.  Also, the shot from the ridge where Dany/Jon were watching while they charged was a beaut.  Didn't make any goddamn sense at all, but it was pretty.




I'm a software engineer.  My wife is a nurse.  We were study buddies through our educations.  If we were particularly caring about how realistic TV shows were, we couldn't watch TV.  I expect that show creators in general don't know shit about shit so I'm not often disappointed.  I can only see so many "hacking" scenes or shitty needle use before I just give up.

[CarbShark]

One could pretty easily, even as a layman, devise a better battle plan. Primarily, they should have stayed inside the castle, banked the inside of the walls and gate, lined the entire wall with soldiers carrying obsidian-tipped spears, and filled the entire interior of the castle with archers firing obsidian-tipped arrows over the walls in volleys.

They didn't have enough space inside the walls of Winterfell for all of them.

They had a lot of dragon glass, but not that much.

But even if you wanted to meet them on the field you could have devised a much better plan. Unsullied take the center, lining up far from the walls, and fall back in an organized way (as they do in the episode); Dothraki armed with obsidian-pointed spears and split in two groups on left and right perform a flanking maneuver (that is, after all, what cavalry are for). Surround the dead, keep them hemmed in as much as possible, and then bring in the dragons.

Is this Monday morning quarterbacking? We saw how the battle unfolded, now we can say "you should have done x instead of  y"

And for fuck’s sake get Dany some armor.

You realize she has to fly, right and armor is heavy.  She never intended to fight on the ground.

[Harry Black]

It was idiotic.  However, I did like the tension of watching the lighted swords slowly blinking out in the distance as it all got quiet.  Also, the shot from the ridge where Dany/Jon were watching while they charged was a beaut.  Didn't make any goddamn sense at all, but it was pretty.




I'm a software engineer.  My wife is a nurse.  We were study buddies through our educations.  If we were particularly caring about how realistic TV shows were, we couldn't watch TV.  I expect that show creators in general don't know shit about shit so I'm not often disappointed.  I can only see so many "hacking" scenes or shitty needle use before I just give up.

Its not really about them not knowing shit though.
We accept that realistic sword techniques and battle formations dont translate as well to screen in the same way we accept that real life hacking isnt as exciting looking as fast typing and multiple flashing screens.
This is more about the context of what is happening and a laziness in applying the glue that connects the characters goals with the show runners vision. They have no shortage of people they could ask about how such a battle might be approached and why such a force might be required to venture out. This could be explained with a scene or two replacing the existing preparation scenes if they cared to.
When I watch MacGyver, I dont care that you cant pick locks with a SAK bottle opener because that show has built its brand on silly contrivances.
GoT has built its brand on being the show with dragons but where decisions and actions have realistic consequences. A boy is left paralysed with no magic cure, the noble hero gets outflanked and killed by bad guys, the seemingly invincible warrior gets an infected minor wound and dies.
The show has abandoned such concepts now and is basically just an american style soap opera with rich people giving evil speeches to each other and one upping the shocking betrayals they can pull off. Now that the night king is gone, most of my friends are telling me that this 'intrigue' is all they ever cared about. Which....fine. soap operas are popular for a reason and I still read comics and Jack Reacher.
But I just dont think its innocent lack of knowledge. I think its knowing what their core audience really cares about and being more interested in that than crafting a story.
Which I get too, but Im definitely going to complain about it so that maybe more things that appeal to me might get made.

[The Latinist]

One could pretty easily, even as a layman, devise a better battle plan. Primarily, they should have stayed inside the castle, banked the inside of the walls and gate, lined the entire wall with soldiers carrying obsidian-tipped spears, and filled the entire interior of the castle with archers firing obsidian-tipped arrows over the walls in volleys.

They didn't have enough space inside the walls of Winterfell for all of them.

I do not think this was established.

They had a lot of dragon glass, but not that much.

As far as we can tell, the effects of dragon glass are not physical, but magical. An arrow or spear, to be be effective, would therefore require but a tiny shard embedded at the tip.  You might be able to make a thousand such tips from one Hound axehead and a hundred from one Sansa dagger. Do you think there was any hope that the Hound would personally kill anything approaching a thousand wights? That Sansa would kill a hundred?

But even if you wanted to meet them on the field you could have devised a much better plan. Unsullied take the center, lining up far from the walls, and fall back in an organized way (as they do in the episode); Dothraki armed with obsidian-pointed spears and split in two groups on left and right perform a flanking maneuver (that is, after all, what cavalry are for). Surround the dead, keep them hemmed in as much as possible, and then bring in the dragons.

Is this Monday morning quarterbacking? We saw how the battle unfolded, now we can say "you should have done x instead of  y"

No, it is not. One need not see the results of the battle to know that their preparations were all wrong. It was obvious before the battle started and actually even from the trailer; they never had any chance of working. The tactics I described are just basic military strategy of the type that Jamie and Jorah, if no-one else, should have known.

And for fuck’s sake get Dany some armor.

You realize she has to fly, right and armor is heavy.  She never intended to fight on the ground.

Are you suggesting that Drogon is not capable of carrying another 40-odd pounds? That's demonstrably false given that he has been show effortlessly to carry five adult men in armor in addition to Dany. Nor does she need armor only for fighting on the ground; she needs protection from arrows -- aimed or stray -- and especially spears.  Remember that the Night King has already shown himself to have supernatural strength and accuracy in spear-throwing.

Nor does such armor have to be very heavy, really; a light coat of mail over a leather jerkin and a helmet would provide her significantly better protection without significantly burdening her.

[Harry Black]

Im willing to accept that she might be wearing a chain mail shirt and gambeson under this seasons snow queen chique.

And of course whats the point in all of those gorgeous hairstyles if they have to hide them with helmets or hats?

I think a big part of the frustration from some folks is that it has become apparent that there is little point in trying to predict what might logically happen next, because there is no logic any more. Predictions are now more or less based off of wjat would have the most narrative satisfaction or be the most left field but vaguely possible decision for them to make.

Also- If dragon glass is so magical that a poke in the eye can kill a giant, shouldnt that undead dragon have been a piece of piss to kill as the biggest target on the battlefield once it landed?

[The Latinist]

Also- If dragon glass is so magical that a poke in the eye can kill a giant, shouldnt that undead dragon have been a piece of piss to kill as the biggest target on the battlefield once it landed?

It's a good question. I'm willing to grant that a dragon's armor makes it hard to stick with arrows or an ordinary spear throw (though Visarion was susceptible enough to the Night King's ice spear). To be honest, I thought Arya's spear was meant for Visarion.

[Harry Black]

Also- If dragon glass is so magical that a poke in the eye can kill a giant, shouldnt that undead dragon have been a piece of piss to kill as the biggest target on the battlefield once it landed?

It's a good question. I'm willing to grant that a dragon's armor makes it hard to stick with arrows or an ordinary spear throw (though Visarion was susceptible enough to the Night King's ice spear). To be honest, I thought Arya's spear was meant for Visarion.

Im cool with that! I dont need much of a handwave!
Would have been cool to see someone do the "chink in the armour" trope with an arrow!

And yeah. What a waste of screen time that spear was.

[CarbShark]

And yeah. What a waste of screen time that spear was.

That was no spear. That was a staff with pointy ends.


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[Rai]

This episode was such bullshit, from beginning to end.

Sansa's character development through rape and abuse, Jaime dropping all his previous story arc and character development, the fridging of the only woman of colour for motivation, a bullshit teleporting fleet that knows the enemy's plans and is armed with magic, automatic self-guided ballistas, an unreasonable admiration for Jon just to seed pointless conflict and the ever more obvious Mad Queen arc that will make sure that the right clueless dude gets the throne...


Like how can you surprise and defeat a fleet that is supported by flying dragons that breathe fire? How?

The show just lost me completely. It is built on artificial contrivances, refuses to keep the rules of the world and isn't even surprising or fun to watch.

[CarbShark]

This episode was such bullshit, from beginning to end.

Sansa's character development through rape and abuse, Jaime dropping all his previous story arc and character development, the fridging of the only woman of colour for motivation, a bullshit teleporting fleet that knows the enemy's plans and is armed with magic, automatic self-guided ballistas, an unreasonable admiration for Jon just to seed pointless conflict and the ever more obvious Mad Queen arc that will make sure that the right clueless dude gets the throne...


Like how can you surprise and defeat a fleet that is supported by flying dragons that breathe fire? How?

The show just lost me completely. It is built on artificial contrivances, refuses to keep the rules of the world and isn't even surprising or fun to watch.

So why do you watch?


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[Soldier of FORTRAN]

I've been pretty happy so far watching clips and reading the pithy recaps.


edit: As an aside, the difference in quality between the early and later seasons is so sharp that I want to get back into writing just to take a serious whack at the gardener approach.

[Rai]

This episode was such bullshit, from beginning to end.

Sansa's character development through rape and abuse, Jaime dropping all his previous story arc and character development, the fridging of the only woman of colour for motivation, a bullshit teleporting fleet that knows the enemy's plans and is armed with magic, automatic self-guided ballistas, an unreasonable admiration for Jon just to seed pointless conflict and the ever more obvious Mad Queen arc that will make sure that the right clueless dude gets the throne...


Like how can you surprise and defeat a fleet that is supported by flying dragons that breathe fire? How?

The show just lost me completely. It is built on artificial contrivances, refuses to keep the rules of the world and isn't even surprising or fun to watch.

So why do you watch?


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I want to see it through.