Author Topic: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]  (Read 10050 times)

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #345 on: May 20, 2019, 08:00:17 PM »
I'm not sure all that's the case, but differences of opinion aside, this is a world where winters last years

You're not sure what's the case? That it was ash that was falling? I think that was made abundantly clear both in this episode and the last.


Watch the scene when Drogon shakes it off again.  It is clearly snowing and not just ash falling.


Or are you unsure that it was several weeks at least between the death of Dany and the following scene?  Look at Tyrion's beard; they clearly establish through it that he's been in that cell for weeks if not months. The same for Jon's beard, later.  Not to mention that Sansa has had time to travel from Winterfell to Kings Landing, a journey of several weeks, and the lords of Westeros have had time to assemble massive armies outside of the city.

That's true, I forgot about the beards.  Still, unless they are implying that winter (or years long winters at least) was a product of the Night King, it still seems a bit short.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #346 on: May 20, 2019, 08:22:28 PM »
I'm not sure all that's the case, but differences of opinion aside, this is a world where winters last years

You're not sure what's the case? That it was ash that was falling? I think that was made abundantly clear both in this episode and the last.


Watch the scene when Drogon shakes it off again.  It is clearly snowing and not just ash falling.


Or are you unsure that it was several weeks at least between the death of Dany and the following scene?  Look at Tyrion's beard; they clearly establish through it that he's been in that cell for weeks if not months. The same for Jon's beard, later.  Not to mention that Sansa has had time to travel from Winterfell to Kings Landing, a journey of several weeks, and the lords of Westeros have had time to assemble massive armies outside of the city.

That's true, I forgot about the beards.  Still, unless they are implying that winter (or years long winters at least) was a product of the Night King, it still seems a bit short.
They did imply that.


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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #347 on: May 20, 2019, 11:42:43 PM »
I'm not sure all that's the case, but differences of opinion aside, this is a world where winters last years

You're not sure what's the case? That it was ash that was falling? I think that was made abundantly clear both in this episode and the last.


Watch the scene when Drogon shakes it off again.  It is clearly snowing and not just ash falling.


Or are you unsure that it was several weeks at least between the death of Dany and the following scene?  Look at Tyrion's beard; they clearly establish through it that he's been in that cell for weeks if not months. The same for Jon's beard, later.  Not to mention that Sansa has had time to travel from Winterfell to Kings Landing, a journey of several weeks, and the lords of Westeros have had time to assemble massive armies outside of the city.

That's true, I forgot about the beards.  Still, unless they are implying that winter (or years long winters at least) was a product of the Night King, it still seems a bit short.
They did imply that.

It's all fine and good to think or know that, but do you mind telling me when and how?  I mean, it certainly could make sense if they chose to play it that way, I just didn't recall them alluding to it in any specific manner. Regardless, it really seemed like winter kept on coming until after Dany died, not after the Night King died.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #348 on: May 21, 2019, 02:14:56 AM »

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #349 on: May 21, 2019, 03:40:42 AM »
Watching a youtube panel on the episode last night that made me laugh-
Jon is now ICE. As in, he is working at the border :laugh:

Why didnt Jon just pretend Dany went off on drogon and never came back? Maybe she fell off!

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #350 on: May 21, 2019, 08:26:14 AM »


That's one of the problems. The writers gave up the idea that the characters and the world constraints drive the plot. The writers flipped to just writing a plot and then having characters behave and do stuff as needed. Like when the big wildling guy was pounding Jon on the back for his bravery climbing onto the back of a dragon. The writers forgot the previous season he did it himself.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #351 on: May 21, 2019, 09:14:41 AM »
Yeah, agreed. A good example is from the last episode where Dany addresses her army in a foreign tongue that Jon doesn't speak and the next scene he's talking to Tyrion about what she said.  Also, when Dany talked to Jon earlier in the season about how Sansa's changed because of all the things that were done to her, despite never an opportunity to remotely know any of it. The writers very clearly were just focused on having moments and scenes and kinda forgot about building the story naturally from the world and characters they'd built and grown.

I almost wonder, now that I mention it, if maybe them knowing the ending of the series and where the characters wind up, but not the journeys they will take actually made it harder on them than the writers of other wildly popular shows that wrapping up did. For instance, the Breaking Bad writers were free to realize their previous visions for where Walter White and co would end up were the wrong moves and make drastic changes to better fit their characters.  What it they'd felt obligated to make Jesse kill Hank or Skylar run with Walt and so on? Imagine how much harder it would be for those same writers to force the characters to do what they didn't want them to do.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #352 on: May 21, 2019, 09:24:18 AM »
I almost wonder, now that I mention it, if maybe them knowing the ending of the series and where the characters wind up, but not the journeys they will take actually made it harder on them than the writers of other wildly popular shows that wrapping up did.

I think that's exactly the problem: they knew the destination, but they no longer had the source material to guide them in how to get there.  And while they are really good at adapting and making hard choices about which parts of source material to emphasize and which to change, they weren't as successful in connecting the dots in a barebones plot sketch. 
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #353 on: May 21, 2019, 10:40:50 AM »
I just posted this on r/GameofThrones, expanding my thoughts on the matter.  I'm interested to see everyone's reactions here:

Quote
I still stand by my feelings of the season as nothing changes the end result, but a thought just came to me that makes me wonder if maybe I have been more harsh on Dan and David than was merited. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the scenario they found themselves in for the last 3ish seasons is pretty novel (if not unprecedented), where they started an adaptation with plenty of source material, ran out, but still knew the broad strokes and ending points of the rest of the story, but not the details of the journeys that lead to them. Many have commented on this fact for quite some time and I've seen it referenced when attempting to explain the downturn in quality of writing by suggesting that most or none of what we came to love about the show ever was ever from D&D, but came from GRRM. What I've never seen mentioned though, is how truly difficult that position would be for any writer.

Imagine, if you will, that for some reason (doesn't matter what, just go with it) the writers of Breaking Bad felt 100% obligated from early on, to have Jesse kill Hank, or to have Skylar or Walt Jr fully side with Walt and become fully engaged criminals too, or to have Jesse freely join the Nazis, or any number of things they clearly never envisioned for the characters. How would that have changed the quality of the writing in the last few seasons, knowing they essentially had lost the creative freedom that most writers cherish? I mean, when you listen to how they wrote Breaking Bad, you realize that while they did have some consistent plans for the end, even from the beginning, it was ultimately this huge collaboration with a constant back and forth between the writers where they sometimes made huge course corrections upon realizing they'd overlooked a trait, fact, or interesting perspective. For instance, it's well known that in talking with fan, Kevin Cordasco, about what he wanted from the show, Gilligan and the other writers realized that Gretchen and Elliott could play an important role in the finale. Imagine if they felt unable to make that change and had to concoct some other reason to make Walt go back that felt less genuine or earned.

I can easily see why this show would slowly stop sparking creativity and driving innovative writing for those in the writers' room, knowing that in the most important ways, your hands were tied. Moreover, I am starting to see how writing this show could easily transform from a pleasure into a chore that is required of you. I firmly believe that passion for one's craft is essential for creating the best art. For the actors, they are used to performing what is given to them, even if they disagree with it, and have been invested in portraying these characters for years. For the directors it's much the same and they've been given truly mind-boggling budgets to employ the best in their fields to create some truly amazing scenes and moments. Same for the composer, and the digital artists, and the costumers, and those in every other job that has continued to output truly marvelous work from the first episode to the last. The writers and show-runners seem uniquely prone to this malady.

I'm not saying that everyone should suddenly be content with the things we disliked; I'm saying that for my part, I think I'm going to be kinder to the human beings who are responsible because maybe they were up against more than I'd given them credit.

TL;DR Writing is a profession that requires passion and a certain degree of creative freedom to make the best works. When D&D surpassed the books, they lost the ability to just be creative in adapting the books and then had to write a show where they had little ability to be creative in what they did with the characters and where they thought the story should go. Maybe that's like a great painter being told they can only fill in the outlines of other artists and maybe that sucks more than I'd ever considered.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #354 on: May 21, 2019, 10:58:37 AM »
characters behave and do stuff as needed. Like when the big wildling guy was pounding Jon on the back for his bravery climbing onto the back of a dragon. The writers forgot the previous season he did it himself.
That’s not how I took that. He was singing Jon’s praises for riding a dragon and at the same time singing his own praise for doing the same thing. That’s a bit of drunken braggadocio.


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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #355 on: May 21, 2019, 11:14:47 AM »
I just posted this on r/GameofThrones, expanding my thoughts on the matter.  I'm interested to see everyone's reactions here:

Quote
I still stand by my feelings of the season as nothing changes the end result, but a thought just came to me that makes me wonder if maybe I have been more harsh on Dan and David than was merited. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the scenario they found themselves in for the last 3ish seasons is pretty novel (if not unprecedented), where they started an adaptation with plenty of source material, ran out, but still knew the broad strokes and ending points of the rest of the story, but not the details of the journeys that lead to them. Many have commented on this fact for quite some time and I've seen it referenced when attempting to explain the downturn in quality of writing by suggesting that most or none of what we came to love about the show ever was ever from D&D, but came from GRRM. What I've never seen mentioned though, is how truly difficult that position would be for any writer.

Imagine, if you will, that for some reason (doesn't matter what, just go with it) the writers of Breaking Bad felt 100% obligated from early on, to have Jesse kill Hank, or to have Skylar or Walt Jr fully side with Walt and become fully engaged criminals too, or to have Jesse freely join the Nazis, or any number of things they clearly never envisioned for the characters. How would that have changed the quality of the writing in the last few seasons, knowing they essentially had lost the creative freedom that most writers cherish? I mean, when you listen to how they wrote Breaking Bad, you realize that while they did have some consistent plans for the end, even from the beginning, it was ultimately this huge collaboration with a constant back and forth between the writers where they sometimes made huge course corrections upon realizing they'd overlooked a trait, fact, or interesting perspective. For instance, it's well known that in talking with fan, Kevin Cordasco, about what he wanted from the show, Gilligan and the other writers realized that Gretchen and Elliott could play an important role in the finale. Imagine if they felt unable to make that change and had to concoct some other reason to make Walt go back that felt less genuine or earned.

I can easily see why this show would slowly stop sparking creativity and driving innovative writing for those in the writers' room, knowing that in the most important ways, your hands were tied. Moreover, I am starting to see how writing this show could easily transform from a pleasure into a chore that is required of you. I firmly believe that passion for one's craft is essential for creating the best art. For the actors, they are used to performing what is given to them, even if they disagree with it, and have been invested in portraying these characters for years. For the directors it's much the same and they've been given truly mind-boggling budgets to employ the best in their fields to create some truly amazing scenes and moments. Same for the composer, and the digital artists, and the costumers, and those in every other job that has continued to output truly marvelous work from the first episode to the last. The writers and show-runners seem uniquely prone to this malady.

I'm not saying that everyone should suddenly be content with the things we disliked; I'm saying that for my part, I think I'm going to be kinder to the human beings who are responsible because maybe they were up against more than I'd given them credit.

TL;DR Writing is a profession that requires passion and a certain degree of creative freedom to make the best works. When D&D surpassed the books, they lost the ability to just be creative in adapting the books and then had to write a show where they had little ability to be creative in what they did with the characters and where they thought the story should go. Maybe that's like a great painter being told they can only fill in the outlines of other artists and maybe that sucks more than I'd ever considered.

I have to disagree.

Yes, it is hard to get from the point where GRRM left off and where he intends to go. That is probably why he has been sitting on the last two books for so long.

However, knowing how a story ends does not nullify creative freedom. You can give the outlines of a painting to Rembrandt or to my four year-old nephew and they'll make vastly different creative choices. The issue is that the creative choices D&D made were rubbish, because they are just not good enough writers/showrunners. They made fundamental mistakes: they completely abandoned worldbuilding or the rules of the world they were working in. They forgot about character development. They ignored meaningful storytelling in favour of bombastic setpieces and a surprising amount of filler (how is it a reasonable choice to spend more time with Tyrion rearranging chairs than with the death of Daenerys Targaryen?). They did not get bored, they stopped caring about creating a coherent narrative in order to cash in and get out to do more lucrative projects.

There were signs of their lack of ability in the early season as well, but the source material carried them on its back. Once it was gone, they were exposed to be completely useless. Especially since a lot of the tangles of the plot were cut or mutilated (I am still salty about what these hacks did to Dorne), which should have cut down the complicating factors.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #356 on: May 21, 2019, 11:56:47 AM »
Running out of book increases creative freedom. 
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #357 on: May 21, 2019, 01:36:16 PM »
I think that's half-true in this case. When you're locked into an ending, but only have 10 or 12 episodes to get there from halfway around world(metaphorically speaking for some characters, literally speaking for others), it forces you to resolve arcs that needed more time, so(to borrow a trope from a different D&D) you get pushed into making a Rocks Fall, Everybody Dies scenario(somewhat literally in the case of the Lannister twins).

However, this doesn't apply here because it was the showrunners' decision to limit the time and episode count. They had as much time as they needed(well, 2-3 more seasons than they took anyway), but didn't take it.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #358 on: May 21, 2019, 02:00:27 PM »
Sorry, I'm not trying to say that no writers could have done it or that there was no room for creative expression.  I'm saying that when compared to the kind of writers rooms I've heard the most positive stories about, I can see how this would be less appealing and less fulfilling to be forced to make decisions that perhaps you don't want to.  My hypothesis is less that they are A grade writers faced with an impossible task, and more that I'm starting to understand a little more why they seemed to not put their hearts into it like they seemed to in earlier seasons and perhaps why they seemed to just want it to be over rather than taking the opportunities available to do a better job.  It doesn't excuse the laziness and it doesn't change my perceptions of the quality of the writing; rather, it makes me a little less angry at them for how it turned out.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #359 on: May 21, 2019, 02:08:01 PM »
Also consider how much writing and script changes take place while shooting for thousands of reasons.


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