Author Topic: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]  (Read 9982 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Rai

  • PIZZASAURUS
  • Global Moderator
  • Too Much Spare Time
  • *****
  • Posts: 7097
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #360 on: May 21, 2019, 02:24:20 PM »
Also consider how Benioff is responsible for X-Men Origins: Wolverine. He is not an A-grade writer.

Offline werecow

  • Cryptobovinologist
  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5011
  • mooh
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #361 on: May 21, 2019, 02:38:25 PM »
My thoughts on what I've read here and elsewhere: I actually really enjoyed this season, although I do wish they'd done the full 10 episodes, or even two seasons, and spent a lot more time on the Three Eyed Raven and the Night King in particular (and maybe had made the plot armor in the 3rd episode a little thinner - though it was still spectacular to say the least). I admit I have a soft spot for spectacle, but even taking that into account, I still think the ratings on, say, IMDB, especially for the last 3 episodes are absurdly low (the last one is rated 4.4/10 at the time of writing, which is a rating I normally associate with poorly made B horror movies). I loved the conversation between Jon and Tyrion in the last episode.

I also don't think Daenerys' mean streak came out of nowhere, as I've seen a lot of people complaining about, although they should've probably built it up over one or two more episodes. I mean, she's literally "the mother of dragons". How much more ominous a title can you have? She's been built up as having a very dark side to her from the moment she gleefully watched her brother's head being melted off. It was just easier to accept it because the people she had killed had it coming, and her advisors managed to hold her back every time she was about to jump off the deep end. I like these two (lengthy) posts on Quora on the subject:

(click to show/hide)

Also I'll buy the scorpions not being too effective the second time around, which is another thing I've read people complaining about. People learn from their mistakes. The first time, she's cocky, she isn't aware of the danger, and the iron fleet gets off a few lucky shots when they surprise her forces and she's flying pretty much straight and unaware of them, and at a medium altitude on a heavily overcast day. It's over before they have time to react. Then she comes straight at them in a fit of rage so that Euron manning his scorpion only has to make a minor adjustment, and she makes the decision to retreat for fear of losing Drogon. The second time, she's more prepared, and surprises them and comes straight at them from behind and above, from out of thin cloud cover with the (still bright) sun in her back, and changes her altitude and angle continually to avoid the scorpions.

I don't think Bran is such a bad choice either, although I admit I did raise my eyebrow there for a second. Jon is clearly no longer a viable candidate now that he's killed Daenerys. And honestly, who'd want another Targaryen on the throne after what they'd just witnessed? The Unsullied and Dothraki certainly wouldn't have accepted that, so it would likely have plunged them into another war. Sansa is tied up in the North and seems keen on staying out of the Seven Kingdoms, so she can't be it. And who were the other clowns in that tent again (I like how they emphasized this with the uncle who's name no one remembers putting himself forward)? Bran has the collective knowledge and wisdom of dozens of generations and (as far as we know) is not power hungry or evil or self-serving. His "little accident" is what started this whole mess and yet he's one of very few characters that hasn't been out for revenge the whole time. And actually, thinking about it now, it makes a lot more sense now that the Night King would've come for him specifically, too, if he'd been destined for that sort of thing from the start - which is heavily implied in his comment "why do you think I came all this way?". Although if that's what they were trying to say they could've been a bit more explicit.
Mooohn!

Offline werecow

  • Cryptobovinologist
  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5011
  • mooh
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #362 on: May 21, 2019, 03:20:46 PM »
Yeah, agreed. A good example is from the last episode where Dany addresses her army in a foreign tongue that Jon doesn't speak and the next scene he's talking to Tyrion about what she said. 

Not a good example IMO... I'm re-watching that scene right now. Here's the dialogue:

Quote
Jon: I can't justify what happened. I won't try. But the war is over now.

Tyrion: Is it? When you heard her talking to her soldiers, did she sound like someone who's done fighting? She liberated the people of Slaver's Bay. She liberated the people of King's Landing. And she'll go on liberating until the people of the world are free... and she rules them all.

That's the only time they mention her speech in that scene. If you watch the scene where she's giving the speech, it's very obvious even when you're not reading the subs that she's not talking about peace and love, and you can see Jon reacting specifically when she uses the words Winterfell and Dorne in that context.

It's also not unreasonable to assume that Jon has picked up a small bit of the language in the months he's spent fighting side by side with these forces.
Mooohn!

Offline Harry Black

  • International Man of Mystery
  • Global Moderator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 16439
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #363 on: May 21, 2019, 06:08:54 PM »
I agree. It was totally obvious Dany was going to do warcrimes on an unimaginable scale for the setting.

Lucky we got rid of that psycho Ned Stark who taught his children that its their duty to decapitate fleeing terrified conscripts.
Bit late though, his daughter baked a family into a pie and served them to the patriarch but Im sure she will be fine on her adventures.
Literally nothing she did up until the bells was unreasonable for a god person within the world we were given.

We were shown that Dany had a temper and was ruthless in pursuit of justice.
We saw a child rejoice in the death of her pimp and abuser.

It was believable that she would balk at giving up power and that she may be too reckless and deaf to the suffering of innocents in the pursuit of her goals.
We were at least a season away from her singlehandedly committing mass murder of innocent peasants. It would have been an incredible turn had it been done right.

But the writers were in too much of a rush to fail upward to Star Wars.
Its not like I can really talk though, Im the guy who explains every issue in the Nolan trilogy with "Because he is Batman".

Offline werecow

  • Cryptobovinologist
  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5011
  • mooh
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #364 on: May 21, 2019, 06:47:19 PM »
I didn't say she's been the most evil character on the show, I'm saying she's always been a lot more gray than a lot of people acknowledge. A lot of the "good" guys in the series have done some very evil shit and would not make good rulers. She's one of them.

But I do agree that the show would've benefited from having more episodes to get her to that point.
Mooohn!

Offline The Latinist

  • Cyber Greasemonkey
  • Technical Administrator
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8035
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #365 on: May 21, 2019, 07:18:46 PM »
Werecow, I think that you are reading book lore into the show. What we were shown on screen was a character who, while ambitious and damaged and a bit too obsessed with fire, was always fundamentally sympathetic toward and a champion of the downtrodden.  The character we were shown would have burned down the Red Keep, might have murdered Jon and anyone who knew his secret, might even systematically eliminate the lords of Westeros if they opposed her; but they never showed us a woman who would indiscriminately burn hundreds of thousands of ordinary citizens...men, women, and children. If that’s the woman they intended to portray, they failed at it.

I wonder to what extent the divide between those who are satisfied with Danaerys’ development and those who are not reflects the divide between those who have read the books and those who have not.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline werecow

  • Cryptobovinologist
  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5011
  • mooh
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #366 on: May 21, 2019, 07:24:04 PM »
Werecow, I think that you are reading book lore into the show. What we were shown on screen was a character who, while ambitious and damaged and a bit too obsessed with fire, was always fundamentally sympathetic toward and a champion of the downtrodden.  The character we were shown would have burned down the Red Keep, might have murdered Jon and anyone who knew his secret, might even systematically eliminate the lords of Westeros if they opposed her; but they never showed us a woman who would indiscriminately burn hundreds of thousands of ordinary citizens...men, women, and children. If that’s the woman they intended to portray, they failed at it.

I wonder to what extent the divide between those who are satisfied with Danaerys’ development and those who are not reflects the divide between those who have read the books and those who have not.

I'm not sure how I'd be doing that since I've never read the books and don't know much about how they differ from the series.
Mooohn!

Online CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 11954
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #367 on: May 21, 2019, 07:59:10 PM »
Werecow, I think that you are reading book lore into the show. What we were shown on screen was a character who, while ambitious and damaged and a bit too obsessed with fire, was always fundamentally sympathetic toward and a champion of the downtrodden.  The character we were shown would have burned down the Red Keep, might have murdered Jon and anyone who knew his secret, might even systematically eliminate the lords of Westeros if they opposed her; but they never showed us a woman who would indiscriminately burn hundreds of thousands of ordinary citizens...men, women, and children. If that’s the woman they intended to portray, they failed at it.

I wonder to what extent the divide between those who are satisfied with Danaerys’ development and those who are not reflects the divide between those who have read the books and those who have not.

I'm not sure how I'd be doing that since I've never read the books and don't know much about how they differ from the series.

I haven't read the books either, but I was perfectly fine with the ending. Infact, it was a feeling of dread that came true, something this show has been more than capable of creating (while not many other shows come close)*.

Even if you didn't see that in her, Varys and Tyrion could and they made it clear what they thought she was capable of, and then to prove the point, she incinerated Varys.

*It's similar to the feeling of dread I've had ever since election night, 2016.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 9841
  • Cache rules everything around me.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #368 on: May 21, 2019, 09:06:35 PM »


If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

Online CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 11954
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #369 on: May 21, 2019, 09:10:44 PM »
I can’t unsee that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 9841
  • Cache rules everything around me.
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #370 on: May 21, 2019, 09:26:28 PM »
Great post on Reddit: (Spoilers Main) 99% of the show's problems are due to the omission of Young Griff/(f)Aegon

(Spoilered for references to books)

(click to show/hide)

I'm not a book-reader but this looks compelling.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 09:28:34 PM by Soldier of FORTRAN »
If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

Offline The Latinist

  • Cyber Greasemonkey
  • Technical Administrator
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8035
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #371 on: May 21, 2019, 10:49:38 PM »
Werecow, I think that you are reading book lore into the show. What we were shown on screen was a character who, while ambitious and damaged and a bit too obsessed with fire, was always fundamentally sympathetic toward and a champion of the downtrodden.  The character we were shown would have burned down the Red Keep, might have murdered Jon and anyone who knew his secret, might even systematically eliminate the lords of Westeros if they opposed her; but they never showed us a woman who would indiscriminately burn hundreds of thousands of ordinary citizens...men, women, and children. If that’s the woman they intended to portray, they failed at it.

I wonder to what extent the divide between those who are satisfied with Danaerys’ development and those who are not reflects the divide between those who have read the books and those who have not.

I'm not sure how I'd be doing that since I've never read the books and don't know much about how they differ from the series.

I apologize; the people whose lengthy posts you quoted (and which I mistook for your own) are reading book lore into the show.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline Harry Black

  • International Man of Mystery
  • Global Moderator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 16439
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #372 on: May 22, 2019, 04:14:19 AM »
I didn't say she's been the most evil character on the show, I'm saying she's always been a lot more gray than a lot of people acknowledge. A lot of the "good" guys in the series have done some very evil shit and would not make good rulers. She's one of them.

But I do agree that the show would've benefited from having more episodes to get her to that point.
I know You werent saying that. All Im saying is that none of her behaviour was especially indicative of anything special at all unless you ignore the context of how people behave in that world and what they consider just.
With that in mind, the massacre came from nowhere. They had started to show us her wild eyed fury at maybe not being the one to sit on the throne or not being able to trust Jon. That was the start of something interesting. I could buy war crimes maybe. But not those specific war crimes.

Offline werecow

  • Cryptobovinologist
  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5011
  • mooh
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #373 on: May 22, 2019, 06:10:27 PM »
Great post on Reddit: (Spoilers Main) 99% of the show's problems are due to the omission of Young Griff/(f)Aegon

(Spoilered for references to books)

(click to show/hide)

I'm not a book-reader but this looks compelling.

After I read the books, I'll probably be ennerdraged by this. Which is basically the reason I postponed reading them. }|<o)

Werecow, I think that you are reading book lore into the show. What we were shown on screen was a character who, while ambitious and damaged and a bit too obsessed with fire, was always fundamentally sympathetic toward and a champion of the downtrodden.  The character we were shown would have burned down the Red Keep, might have murdered Jon and anyone who knew his secret, might even systematically eliminate the lords of Westeros if they opposed her; but they never showed us a woman who would indiscriminately burn hundreds of thousands of ordinary citizens...men, women, and children. If that’s the woman they intended to portray, they failed at it.

I wonder to what extent the divide between those who are satisfied with Danaerys’ development and those who are not reflects the divide between those who have read the books and those who have not.

I'm not sure how I'd be doing that since I've never read the books and don't know much about how they differ from the series.

I apologize; the people whose lengthy posts you quoted (and which I mistook for your own) are reading book lore into the show.

Maybe, and obviously I'm projecting my own view of the character onto the show, but even before I read those posts or saw that episode, I always had a feeling that Daenerys was just a little too gleeful as she watched her adversaries burn to be the winner of this show, and she always struck me as more of a conqueror and a zealot than a ruler. Revenge is always kind of a dark, but GoT has some especially dark revenge scenes, and Dany had maybe the most of those of any character on the show - and whereas Sansa has starved hounds and Arya has needle and other people's faces, she has an airborne industrial sized flamethrower when she goes apeshit. Sure, I felt no sympathy for her early adversaries and I was cheering her on, but then I have a bit of a dark streak at times too, so she was actually kind of relatable in that way (I've seen people here apologetically saying they would never wish harm on a fellow human being in the context of, oh, say, real-life politics - I'll happily wish lethal harm on some of them, and I hope it'll come soon, and that it'll hurt, hopefully a lot - but then, I'm not aiming to be the ruler of a continent). From a narrative point-of-view, it's hard to explain exactly, but I always had this sense that things just seemed to go her way a little too easily a lot of the time (comparatively speaking, in the context of this particular show that makes a point of fucking with our expectations). Maybe Certainly I've just seen way too many movies, but she always struck me as a good "plot-twist villain". She solved all her big problems with almost literal hellfire, she controls literal monsters, she's often worried about her own sanity... but her targets were just not people we had any emotional attachment to until she came to Westeros. Most of the time her advisors pulled her back from the brink of losing it, continually reassuring her that she was nothing like her father. A little too on the nose, right there. And then, she wanted to burn the Red Keep before on the show, too. Sure, it could've easily gone another way, but I don't think it's that unbelievable that she would go that route once those soothing voices and cheering crowds were gone and she felt completely abandoned and betrayed.

I didn't say she's been the most evil character on the show, I'm saying she's always been a lot more gray than a lot of people acknowledge. A lot of the "good" guys in the series have done some very evil shit and would not make good rulers. She's one of them.

But I do agree that the show would've benefited from having more episodes to get her to that point.
I know You werent saying that. All Im saying is that none of her behaviour was especially indicative of anything special at all unless you ignore the context of how people behave in that world and what they consider just.
With that in mind, the massacre came from nowhere. They had started to show us her wild eyed fury at maybe not being the one to sit on the throne or not being able to trust Jon. That was the start of something interesting. I could buy war crimes maybe. But not those specific war crimes.

I still disagree that it came out of nowhere (e.g.: if she's so hell-bent on liberating people, why is she so adamant that everyone must bend the knee to her), but I will agree that they could have done a better job at making her descent into madness more believable. In particular, they could have paid more attention to her perspective and made the point of "nobody here likes me, so I have only one option left" earlier.

I was actually kind of dreading this season because it seemed to me that there was no way to tie all of this together in six episodes. I would certainly have liked a slower development, but it was not so poorly done that it actually turned me off at any point, and I was actually kind of impressed at how much story telling they managed to pack into that short run.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 06:15:03 PM by werecow »
Mooohn!

Offline The Latinist

  • Cyber Greasemonkey
  • Technical Administrator
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8035
Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
« Reply #374 on: May 23, 2019, 07:27:15 AM »
werecow: I’m not sure that I disagree with anything that you’ve said. There was nothing implausible in Dany turning to madness; indeed, it was long foreshadowed and I expected it. And you seem to agree with me that they did not adequately develop her descent into madness on the show due to time constraints.  I think where we differ is that you are willing to overlook that lack of development and fill in the blanks, so-to-speak, for the writers, as long as the turn was foreshadowed. I, on the other hand, consider the failure to make her actual descent into madness believable a nearly fatal flaw.  I think that it was the single most important thing they had to do this season, and they just didn’t do it.  Again, it is not the fact that she turned that is the problem; I expected that. It’s that they didn’t adequately sell the turn.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

 

personate-rain
personate-rain