Author Topic: Notre Dame cathedral fire  (Read 1831 times)

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Offline John Albert

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Re: Notre Dame cathedral fire
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2019, 03:23:31 PM »

Medieval Europeans would make pilgrimages to these churches from all over Europe, to show reverence for the artifacts and relics on display. ND allegedly contained the actual crown of thorns used in Jesus' crucifixion. That artifact was rescued from the fire.

I wonder if they have radiocarbon dated the crown?

Seems like the Church has declined those kinds of tests after the PR disaster that resulted from carbon dating the Shroud of Turin.

Online 2397

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Re: Notre Dame cathedral fire
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2019, 03:56:28 PM »
My guess is that it was made in the 13th century.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-17/notre-dame-fire-history-of-the-crown-of-thorns/11024430

Quote
But the TL;DR of it is this: the Latin Emperor of Constantinople realised he was a bit of a Neville No Friends and used it to try and buy support.

In 1238, Baldwin II offered the crown to Louis IX, the King of France, to gain backing for his tottering empire.

It ended up in the hands of the Venetians for a while as security for a heavy loan but inevitably found its way back to Paris.

King Louis XI commissioned the Sainte-Chapelle to house it, where it stayed until the French Revolution when it was deposited in the Cathedral of Notre-Dame.

And that's where it had been ever since... until this week.

The Mayor of Paris, Anne Hidalgo, says it's now in a "safe place" along with the tunic of Saint Louis and several other major works.

Offline John Albert

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Re: Notre Dame cathedral fire
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2019, 04:59:14 PM »
As expected, pictures like this are being circulated as evidence of some kind of miracle:



(THE CROSS is still standing! Wooooooo!)

Offline wastrel

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Re: Notre Dame cathedral fire
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2019, 05:42:13 PM »
Melting Point of Gold: 1,064°C (1,948°F)
Average temperature of wood/structure fire: About 600°C (1,112°F)

God created physics, so this still counts as a miracle.

Offline xenu

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Re: Notre Dame cathedral fire
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2019, 05:43:02 PM »

Medieval Europeans would make pilgrimages to these churches from all over Europe, to show reverence for the artifacts and relics on display. ND allegedly contained the actual crown of thorns used in Jesus' crucifixion. That artifact was rescued from the fire.

I wonder if they have radiocarbon dated the crown?

Seems like the Church has declined those kinds of tests after the PR disaster that resulted from carbon dating the Shroud of Turin.

That's what I was wondering. I was curious if they had been approached.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Notre Dame cathedral fire
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2019, 11:06:38 PM »

Medieval Europeans would make pilgrimages to these churches from all over Europe, to show reverence for the artifacts and relics on display. ND allegedly contained the actual crown of thorns used in Jesus' crucifixion. That artifact was rescued from the fire.

I wonder if they have radiocarbon dated the crown?

Why use scientific dating methods, which have error bars, when you have faith-based dating?  It is 100% accurate, every single time.

Faith-based dating also available at christianmingle.com.
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Online Rai

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Re: Notre Dame cathedral fire
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2019, 12:14:33 AM »
Melting Point of Gold: 1,064°C (1,948°F)
Average temperature of wood/structure fire: About 600°C (1,112°F)

God created physics, so this still counts as a miracle.

Also there was never a significant fire inside the building (those are burnt beams the fell in through a hole in the ceiling), and that cross is actually quite far from that heap, at the back of the apse.

Offline superdave

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Re: Notre Dame cathedral fire
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2019, 09:27:20 AM »

Medieval Europeans would make pilgrimages to these churches from all over Europe, to show reverence for the artifacts and relics on display. ND allegedly contained the actual crown of thorns used in Jesus' crucifixion. That artifact was rescued from the fire.

I wonder if they have radiocarbon dated the crown?

Why use scientific dating methods, which have error bars, when you have faith-based dating?  It is 100% accurate, every single time.

Faith-based dating also available at christianmingle.com.

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Offline Ah.hell

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Re: Notre Dame cathedral fire
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2019, 10:07:47 AM »
Medieval Europeans would make pilgrimages to these churches from all over Europe, to show reverence for the artifacts and relics on display. ND allegedly contained the actual crown of thorns used in Jesus' crucifixion. That artifact was rescued from the fire.
I'm amused that pretty much every news story I've heard about the crown just take it for granted that its legit.  I have heard any kind "thought to be" or "claimed". 


As a side note, my reaction to this is, "Well that's too bad", I don't quite get why so many people are so emotionally invested in it.   Well, except for all the restaurants and shops in the area, it really sucks for them.   There plight impacts me more than the cathedral burning down actually. 

Offline seamas

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Re: Notre Dame cathedral fire
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2019, 10:57:24 AM »
I have to appreciate the idea that the Crusaders were such outstanding archeologists and the Jews and Romans of the days Jesus were so wonderful at determining what objects should be kept as souvenirs and kept them preserved without bothering to contact any of the five holy sees about their existence for a thousand years.

i visited Israel and Jerusalem last summer. One of the things that one is first alerted to is just about EVERYTHING one sees in the "Old City" is the product of the Muslims or the Crusaders. All the stuff from the days of the Romans or earlier are several meters below ground level.
In the Church of the Holy Sepulchure They have what is reported to be THE slab that Jesus (temporarily) dead body was laid upon. (Found by the Crusaders) I mean it COULD be, but if so, it'd be the same one just about all the dead bodies would have been laid upon. Still a beautiful big marble slab in an area that seems to be almost 100% limestone seems dubious.

Offline brilligtove

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Re: Notre Dame cathedral fire
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2019, 01:31:45 PM »
As a side note, my reaction to this is, "Well that's too bad", I don't quite get why so many people are so emotionally invested in it.   Well, except for all the restaurants and shops in the area, it really sucks for them.   There plight impacts me more than the cathedral burning down actually.

The Economist has an interesting take on this - and one that I think is rooted in reality. The article is behind a paywall, but you can listen to the whole thing on todays edition of The Economist Radio: Editor's Picks podcast.

The locations for the outpouring of support maps cleanly to where tourists to Paris come from. If you've been there and formed a personal connection to the place you're likely to be much more emotional.
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Offline xenu

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Re: Notre Dame cathedral fire
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2019, 04:30:58 PM »
I find it interesting that the Vatican hasn't done anything but offer prays for the rebuild and not a single Euro.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Notre Dame cathedral fire
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2019, 06:31:44 PM »
I find it interesting that the Vatican hasn't done anything but offer prays for the rebuild and not a single Euro.
They’ve got their own Cathedral to worry about. If they helped rebuild ND, then they’d have to help everyone and that’s not how it works.

They get money from their dioceses, they don’t give money to them. 


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Offline werecow

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Re: Notre Dame cathedral fire
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2019, 06:58:59 PM »
The good thing is that Medieval architects were always kinda winging it and seriously overbuilt every cathedral, making the walls extremely durable. Notre Dame is also meticulously documented and laser-scanned therefore we know whaf to rebuild and how.

A little OT, but I visited this church in my home town of Leiden once on open monuments day and they let us climb into the superstructure of the dome. The guide explained how this was the first church of it's kind built in these parts, and so they massively over-engineered the arches with very dense, heavy wood. It was so heavy that in fact the church started sinking (this all used to be swamp land once) and they had to strengthen the foundations to stop it from just slowly sinking away into the ground. It's still just a little bit crooked:


Offline xenu

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Re: Notre Dame cathedral fire
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2019, 10:04:51 AM »
I must say that I love the helmets of the Paris firefighters.

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