Author Topic: "Rules of Engagement," article on modern debate-me culture from The New Republic  (Read 8405 times)

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Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Do you see any of it on this forum, as the OP suggested? If so, can you point to any example?

When the board went all, "Skinheads of the Galaxy," for a few months, I remember seeing it from those guys.  But I don't really care to go digging around their stuff for quotes.

In the meantime, Ben Shapiro's thrown it at AOC a few times.  He tweets about her a lot.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Do you see any of it on this forum, as the OP suggested? If so, can you point to any example?

When the board went all, "Skinheads of the Galaxy," for a few months, I remember seeing it from those guys.  But I don't really care to go digging around their stuff for quotes.

In the meantime, Ben Shapiro's thrown it at AOC a few times.  He tweets about her a lot.

I have no idea what "Skinheads of the Galaxy" refers to.
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Offline Rai

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Do you see any of it on this forum, as the OP suggested? If so, can you point to any example?

When the board went all, "Skinheads of the Galaxy," for a few months, I remember seeing it from those guys.  But I don't really care to go digging around their stuff for quotes.

In the meantime, Ben Shapiro's thrown it at AOC a few times.  He tweets about her a lot.

And let's not all the "Shapiro/Peterson/Harrs destroys feminist/muslim/socialist with REASON and LOGIC" "content" on the internet. The alt-light and the nazis have thoroughly appropriated the discourse

Offline heyalison

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And for the record, since it seems intentionally missing the point or demanding exact dictionary-definition is part of the skeptical toolbox of some, I didn't mean there was an exact situation of someone saying "Debate me!" in the cultural appropriation thread. There's a hell of a lot of the same bad faith arguments that the debate-me crowd uses, however, as well as the implicit demand that people of colour or their allies have to defend their experience of cultural appropriation on the terms of (I'm guessing here) mostly white men. Instead of endeavoring to understand, there's a doubling-down on the format. In this thread, even, there's the suggestion that one either can take part in that thread or not, dismissing critique of the very thread itself. That's pretty much debate-me culture without saying "Debate me!"

Anyway, I don't want to dwell on the one thread that I mentioned in a parenthetical. This is an important article, and I'm not shocked that the usual suspects are enraged.

Offline Nosmas

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And for the record, since it seems intentionally missing the point or demanding exact dictionary-definition is part of the skeptical toolbox of some, I didn't mean there was an exact situation of someone saying "Debate me!" in the cultural appropriation thread. There's a hell of a lot of the same bad faith arguments that the debate-me crowd uses, however, as well as the implicit demand that people of colour or their allies have to defend their experience of cultural appropriation on the terms of (I'm guessing here) mostly white men. Instead of endeavoring to understand, there's a doubling-down on the format. In this thread, even, there's the suggestion that one either can take part in that thread or not, dismissing critique of the very thread itself. That's pretty much debate-me culture without saying "Debate me!"

Anyway, I don't want to dwell on the one thread that I mentioned in a parenthetical. This is an important article, and I'm not shocked that the usual suspects are enraged.

Really, enraged? The amount of hyperbole and weirdly passive aggressive shots fired back and forth on this forum really distract from my ability to enjoy lurking the discussions these days. I initially enjoyed this place because more often than other forums, people seemed to be able to disagree about things without so much hyperbole, bad faith or taking things overly personal. I'm starting to perceive it as being worse than most other online communities when it comes to the discourse between people who disagree.
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Offline Jeremy's Sea

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And for the record, since it seems intentionally missing the point or demanding exact dictionary-definition is part of the skeptical toolbox of some, I didn't mean there was an exact situation of someone saying "Debate me!" in the cultural appropriation thread. There's a hell of a lot of the same bad faith arguments that the debate-me crowd uses, however, as well as the implicit demand that people of colour or their allies have to defend their experience of cultural appropriation on the terms of (I'm guessing here) mostly white men. Instead of endeavoring to understand, there's a doubling-down on the format. In this thread, even, there's the suggestion that one either can take part in that thread or not, dismissing critique of the very thread itself. That's pretty much debate-me culture without saying "Debate me!"

Anyway, I don't want to dwell on the one thread that I mentioned in a parenthetical. This is an important article, and I'm not shocked that the usual suspects are enraged.

Really, enraged? The amount of hyperbole and weirdly passive aggressive shots fired back and forth on this forum really distract from my ability to enjoy lurking the discussions these days. I initially enjoyed this place because more often than other forums, people seemed to be able to disagree about things without so much hyperbole, bad faith or taking things overly personal. I'm starting to perceive it as being worse than most other online communities when it comes to the discourse between people who disagree.
I'm in the exact same position as you and for some of the same reasons, but it's weird you picked this post and not literally anything on the first page by posters who turn every thread into some weird personal grievance. If they're not "enraged" they're certainly unable to take their own advice about not participating.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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And for the record, since it seems intentionally missing the point or demanding exact dictionary-definition is part of the skeptical toolbox of some, I didn't mean there was an exact situation of someone saying "Debate me!" in the cultural appropriation thread. There's a hell of a lot of the same bad faith arguments that the debate-me crowd uses, however, as well as the implicit demand that people of colour or their allies have to defend their experience of cultural appropriation on the terms of (I'm guessing here) mostly white men. Instead of endeavoring to understand, there's a doubling-down on the format. In this thread, even, there's the suggestion that one either can take part in that thread or not, dismissing critique of the very thread itself. That's pretty much debate-me culture without saying "Debate me!"

Anyway, I don't want to dwell on the one thread that I mentioned in a parenthetical. This is an important article, and I'm not shocked that the usual suspects are enraged.

Really, enraged? The amount of hyperbole and weirdly passive aggressive shots fired back and forth on this forum really distract from my ability to enjoy lurking the discussions these days. I initially enjoyed this place because more often than other forums, people seemed to be able to disagree about things without so much hyperbole, bad faith or taking things overly personal. I'm starting to perceive it as being worse than most other online communities when it comes to the discourse between people who disagree.
I'm in the exact same position as you and for some of the same reasons, but it's weird you picked this post and not literally anything on the first page by posters who turn every thread into some weird personal grievance. If they're not "enraged" they're certainly unable to take their own advice about not participating.

Can you give some examples of this?
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Offline Nosmas

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And for the record, since it seems intentionally missing the point or demanding exact dictionary-definition is part of the skeptical toolbox of some, I didn't mean there was an exact situation of someone saying "Debate me!" in the cultural appropriation thread. There's a hell of a lot of the same bad faith arguments that the debate-me crowd uses, however, as well as the implicit demand that people of colour or their allies have to defend their experience of cultural appropriation on the terms of (I'm guessing here) mostly white men. Instead of endeavoring to understand, there's a doubling-down on the format. In this thread, even, there's the suggestion that one either can take part in that thread or not, dismissing critique of the very thread itself. That's pretty much debate-me culture without saying "Debate me!"

Anyway, I don't want to dwell on the one thread that I mentioned in a parenthetical. This is an important article, and I'm not shocked that the usual suspects are enraged.

Really, enraged? The amount of hyperbole and weirdly passive aggressive shots fired back and forth on this forum really distract from my ability to enjoy lurking the discussions these days. I initially enjoyed this place because more often than other forums, people seemed to be able to disagree about things without so much hyperbole, bad faith or taking things overly personal. I'm starting to perceive it as being worse than most other online communities when it comes to the discourse between people who disagree.
I'm in the exact same position as you and for some of the same reasons, but it's weird you picked this post and not literally anything on the first page by posters who turn every thread into some weird personal grievance. If they're not "enraged" they're certainly unable to take their own advice about not participating.

Do you mean the first page of this thread or the parent message board in general?

To be honest that post because it was the most recent upon my reading this thread, it seemed to me the worst case of hyperbole and misrepresenting how I perceived the conversation so far and because the original post itself almost feels like bait. It doesn't name people specifically but addresses people in this forum of going all "debate me" and then a specific thread. We know who she's talking about, we know they'll read this thread and it's not a shock they'll be commenting regarding that because it's obviously a shot taken which didn't need to be. It's practically spillover when you could just address specific concerns about a thread within it. But up until this point I have seen no rage, like at all, and to refer to the responses in that way just seems like OP was primed to receive an enraged reply.

Now this is all just how it looks to me. And it's admittedly after reading several other threads (not by OP) that give me the same feeling. So maybe I'm primed to perceive it more in that way. I don't know anyone's real intentions, just that I've been getting a lot of bad vibes.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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We know who she's talking about

No we don't.

She took the cultural appropriation thread as an example, in that case it is, I assume, me and John Albert. But according to the OP, that was just one example. Other than that, we don't know. There have been vague accusations thrown around in this thread about people wanting to boost their egos, alt-rightists, people who turn every thread into some weird personal grievance, but all requests for actual examples, and/or information about who these people on this forum are have so far been met with silence.
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Offline Nosmas

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We know who she's talking about

No we don't.

She took the cultural appropriation thread as an example, in that case it is, I assume, me and John Albert. But according to the OP, that was just one example. Other than that, we don't know. There have been vague accusations thrown around in this thread about people wanting to boost their egos, alt-rightists, people who turn every thread into some weird personal grievance, but all requests for actual examples, and/or information about who these people on this forum are have so far been met with silence.

I only meant that CA thread, and I'm assuming the same.
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Offline heyalison

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Jesus christ, outrage, then. It speaks volumes that people are more willing to attack women for a poor choice of words than men who stan for racist talking points (which the majority of the contributions on that thread are).

If you want to dismiss me as passive-aggressive or as having personal issues with specific posters and not the ongoing creep of alt-right and outright fascist talking points into skepticism in general, well, that's some typical sexist myopia. The reason I posted this article is because this is a serious issue, and if you look out into the culture beyond this forum people are discussing it. But if you criticize these behaviors (and apparently especially if you're not a white guy) here then you get dogpiled. And you want to talk about passive-aggressive? Half of the arguments you get from these guys is pearl-clutching "Oh, but you're not a real skeptic then!" whining. And, of course, bad-faith misrepresentations of the actual topics over and over.

The inability to engage the issues in this article and others I've posted, and to instead make it into an issue about me personally, is typical of the ways in which the right dismisses criticism. It's lazy "both sides"-ism, it's sexism, and it is there to talk over discussion of actual issues--as has happened again here.

Offline Harry Black

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Well frankly, if you arent going to go through the trouble of going back through multiple threads and finding specific quotes that people can then quibble over into infinity then Im not going to do any introspection.
/s

Edited portion in next post.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 08:37:11 AM by Harry Black »

Offline Harry Black

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I would like to add , if I havent already before, that I really appreciate heyalison making the effort to still be here and give these perspectives. It is really hard (for me anyway) emotionally to engage in these drawn out point for point disagreements that are clearly going nowhere, so the time and effort in the face of flat out denial and derision is something I very much respect.
We have lost way too much diversity of reasonable non racist opinion here over the past couple of years and its not like the other folks made a secret of why they were going.

Online brilligtove

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Jesus christ, outrage, then. It speaks volumes that people are more willing to attack women for a poor choice of words than men who stan for racist talking points (which the majority of the contributions on that thread are).

If you want to dismiss me as passive-aggressive or as having personal issues with specific posters and not the ongoing creep of alt-right and outright fascist talking points into skepticism in general, well, that's some typical sexist myopia. The reason I posted this article is because this is a serious issue, and if you look out into the culture beyond this forum people are discussing it. But if you criticize these behaviors (and apparently especially if you're not a white guy) here then you get dogpiled. And you want to talk about passive-aggressive? Half of the arguments you get from these guys is pearl-clutching "Oh, but you're not a real skeptic then!" whining. And, of course, bad-faith misrepresentations of the actual topics over and over.

The inability to engage the issues in this article and others I've posted, and to instead make it into an issue about me personally, is typical of the ways in which the right dismisses criticism. It's lazy "both sides"-ism, it's sexism, and it is there to talk over discussion of actual issues--as has happened again here.

Thanks for posting the article. I don't grok all of it, but I will read it again. I have become increasingly frustrated with the discourse here too. I didn't expect Quez to deny racism is a thing, for example.

The energy and interest to continue trying to make this place inclusive and welcoming isn't worth it to me anymore.

I'll check back in May or June, maybe.

Bye.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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I didn't expect Quez to deny racism is a thing, for example.

Where did I do that?

If you make such a public, specific statement or accusation like that, you absolutely owe it to substantiate it, or retract and apologize.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 09:36:58 AM by Quetzalcoatl »
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