Author Topic: "Rules of Engagement," article on modern debate-me culture from The New Republic  (Read 7996 times)

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Offline Nosmas

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I had several paragraphs in response and just opted to delete them in the end. The point I'd like to make would require multiple examples which feels petty, a waste of energy and not likely to change anything.

I'll just try and stick to safer threads about movies, books and silly things for this forum.
Providing yesterday's solutions to today's problems, tomorrow!

Offline John Albert

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The alt-light and the nazis have thoroughly appropriated the discourse

This accusation is absurd. Nobody can "appropriate the discourse." If your view is not being represented in "the discourse," that's nobody's fault but yours. It's even more obtuse to assert that your own viewpoint is above question, and nobody should be debating it in the first place.

The basic gist of your objections seems to be that if you can't assert control over the language and scope of discussion to hinder all viewpoints besides your own, then reasoned discussion is generally a bad thing. That illiberal view is a lynchpin of totalitarianism.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 06:33:23 PM by John Albert »

Offline John Albert

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it seems intentionally missing the point or demanding exact dictionary-definition is part of the skeptical toolbox of some

If consulting a dictionary is removed from the "skeptical toolbox," then how are we supposed to clarify the terms of discussion when people start misusing words in crazy ways?


the implicit demand that people of colour or their allies have to defend their experience of cultural appropriation on the terms of (I'm guessing here) mostly white men.

Which demands are being made of people of color?

How do the self-appointed "allies" know that they're accurately representing the interests of the people they're trying to protect, when even people of color don't all agree about what constitutes cultural appropriation?

So teasing out the details and making sense of that concept is the purpose of that thread. Being that this is a skeptics forum, we're trying to discuss the concept in terms of evidence and reason. Evidence and reason are are not the exclusive purview of "white men"; they're tools that serve everyone regardless of demographic identity.


Instead of endeavoring to understand, there's a doubling-down on the format.

The discussion in the last few pages of the thread have been about trying to establish a cogent definition of "cultural appropriation." The problem is that the goalposts keep shifting all over the place.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 06:38:27 PM by John Albert »

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Personally, I just gave up on 'cultural appropriation' as a concept. 
If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

Offline John Albert

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Personally, I just gave up on 'cultural appropriation' as a concept.

In order to prevent spillover, I'm going to answer this over in the other thread.

Offline Rai

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The alt-light and the nazis have thoroughly appropriated the discourse

This accusation is absurd. Nobody can "appropriate the discourse." If your view is not being represented in "the discourse," that's nobody's fault but yours. It's even more obtuse to assert that your own viewpoint is above question, and nobody should be debating it in the first place.

The basic gist of your objections seems to be that if you can't assert control over the language and scope of discussion to hinder all viewpoints besides your own, then reasoned discussion is generally a bad thing. That illiberal view is a lynchpin of totalitarianism.

If I wated to be funny, I would quote the dictionary definition of totalitarianism and murder the discussion by doggedly sticking to my one and only correct definition with the confodence of a clueless white man.

Instead, I just appreciate how the tone police, once again, showed up in full force to protect nazis and smear people who maliciously spoke out against them.

Offline John Albert

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If I wated to be funny

You don't have to want to be funny.


I would quote the dictionary definition of totalitarianism

Have I misused the word "totalitarianism" by pointing out that one of its primary strategies is to assert complete control over the public discourse?


Instead, I just appreciate how the tone police, once again, showed up in full force to protect nazis and smear people who maliciously spoke out against them.

In this fantasy of yours, who are these "tone police" who protect Nazis and smear people?

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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We have lost way too much diversity of reasonable non racist opinion here over the past couple of years and its not like the other folks made a secret of why they were going.

Yep, the politics sub-forum here has certainly got a reputation:

Quote
Stay out of the politics forum, it's toxic. Basically a few alt-right troll types, and a few screeching ultra-libs drown out otherwise useful information. Better content on skepticism subreddits.
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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I didn't expect Quez to deny racism is a thing, for example.

Where did I do that?

If you make such a public, specific statement or accusation like that, you absolutely owe it to substantiate it, or retract and apologize.

Since you are apparently not going to substantiate your slander, I can play this game too.

I really didn't expect brilligtove to deny the suffering of First Nations in Canada and Canadian society, both historically and contemporary.
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Offline heyalison

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We have lost way too much diversity of reasonable non racist opinion here over the past couple of years and its not like the other folks made a secret of why they were going.

Yep, the politics sub-forum here has certainly got a reputation:

Quote
Stay out of the politics forum, it's toxic. Basically a few alt-right troll types, and a few screeching ultra-libs drown out otherwise useful information. Better content on skepticism subreddits.

Wow, Reddit thinks something. Thanks for sharing! You know posting things like this makes you look ridiculous, right? Hashtag Skeptic!

For the record, the only thing I'm offended by in that Reddit comment is that someone would portray my views as any flavour of "lib" or liberal. I'm a stinkin' pinko commie, and I wear that proudly.  :D

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Wow, Reddit thinks something. Thanks for sharing! You know posting things like this makes you look ridiculous, right? Hashtag Skeptic!

Reddit is not a single entity, it is a wide variety of forums with people with different views. You know, like here (even though some people are working hard to stamp out dissenting opinions).

For the record, the only thing I'm offended by in that Reddit comment is that someone would portray my views as any flavour of "lib" or liberal. I'm a stinkin' pinko commie, and I wear that proudly.  :D

So you are an adherent of an ideology then, with the biases and special pleading that goes along?

- Against Ideology

- Ideology is the Problem

Maybe you should reconsider?
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Offline heyalison

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Wow, Reddit thinks something. Thanks for sharing! You know posting things like this makes you look ridiculous, right? Hashtag Skeptic!

Reddit is not a single entity, it is a wide variety of forums with people with different views. You know, like here (even though some people are working hard to stamp out dissenting opinions).

For the record, the only thing I'm offended by in that Reddit comment is that someone would portray my views as any flavour of "lib" or liberal. I'm a stinkin' pinko commie, and I wear that proudly.  :D

So you are an adherent of an ideology then, with the biases and special pleading that goes along?

- Against Ideology

- Ideology is the Problem

Maybe you should reconsider?

This is another of those posts that make you look ridiculous.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Wow, Reddit thinks something. Thanks for sharing! You know posting things like this makes you look ridiculous, right? Hashtag Skeptic!

Reddit is not a single entity, it is a wide variety of forums with people with different views. You know, like here (even though some people are working hard to stamp out dissenting opinions).

For the record, the only thing I'm offended by in that Reddit comment is that someone would portray my views as any flavour of "lib" or liberal. I'm a stinkin' pinko commie, and I wear that proudly.  :D

So you are an adherent of an ideology then, with the biases and special pleading that goes along?

- Against Ideology

- Ideology is the Problem

Maybe you should reconsider?

This is another of those posts that make you look ridiculous.

As opposed to your deeply thought out, mind-changing posts, I suppose.

(Yes, Harry Black is impressed, but I think he is impressed by anything that's anti-me.)
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Offline heyalison

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Wow, Reddit thinks something. Thanks for sharing! You know posting things like this makes you look ridiculous, right? Hashtag Skeptic!

Reddit is not a single entity, it is a wide variety of forums with people with different views. You know, like here (even though some people are working hard to stamp out dissenting opinions).

For the record, the only thing I'm offended by in that Reddit comment is that someone would portray my views as any flavour of "lib" or liberal. I'm a stinkin' pinko commie, and I wear that proudly.  :D

So you are an adherent of an ideology then, with the biases and special pleading that goes along?

- Against Ideology

- Ideology is the Problem

Maybe you should reconsider?

This is another of those posts that make you look ridiculous.

As opposed to your deeply thought out, mind-changing posts, I suppose.

(Yes, Harry Black is impressed, but I think he is impressed by anything that's anti-me.)

Oh, lordy, kid, you have some deep persecution issues. Anyway, I'm going to slip you back onto ignore. Bad on me for engaging!

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Wow, Reddit thinks something. Thanks for sharing! You know posting things like this makes you look ridiculous, right? Hashtag Skeptic!

Reddit is not a single entity, it is a wide variety of forums with people with different views. You know, like here (even though some people are working hard to stamp out dissenting opinions).

For the record, the only thing I'm offended by in that Reddit comment is that someone would portray my views as any flavour of "lib" or liberal. I'm a stinkin' pinko commie, and I wear that proudly.  :D

So you are an adherent of an ideology then, with the biases and special pleading that goes along?

- Against Ideology

- Ideology is the Problem

Maybe you should reconsider?

This is another of those posts that make you look ridiculous.

As opposed to your deeply thought out, mind-changing posts, I suppose.

(Yes, Harry Black is impressed, but I think he is impressed by anything that's anti-me.)

Oh, lordy, kid, you have some deep persecution issues. Anyway, I'm going to slip you back onto ignore. Bad on me for engaging!

Thank you. I know it is a bad idea to try to engage with you because you clearly aren't interested in that, but sometimes I can't resist.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 09:26:34 AM by Quetzalcoatl »
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

 

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