Author Topic: Anticipatory Thermo-Genesis  (Read 629 times)

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Offline maydont

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Anticipatory Thermo-Genesis
« on: May 02, 2019, 12:47:18 PM »
24 months ago I took up the obscure sport of ice swimming.  That's swimming in water less than 5degC (41degF) for distances of normally 1km and up to a mile.  It's a fascinating sport for a science fanatic and skeptic as in the 10 years it's been around we've learned a lot about how the body reacts to cold water. Every event we collect more data and learn more about cold and one's body. Yet hanging around with the doctors who look after us, I have realised there is still so much they don't know.

My question for the forum is on the concept that we can raise our body temperature in a Pavlovian response prior to entering the cold water. It's called Anticipatory Thermo-Genesis.  It was coined by a controversial doctor (Prof Tim Noakes). I don't want to poison the well here (I'm no fan of Prof Noakes), but was wondering if anyone had any informed opinions on the topic?  Is there anything here (a bit like the yogi's who allegedly can bring on a sweat). The doctors I have spoken to do not know.

Offline The Latinist

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Re: Anticipatory Thermo-Genesis
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2019, 02:23:29 PM »
Can't really know unless we see studies.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Anticipatory Thermo-Genesis
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2019, 03:21:56 PM »
24 months ago I took up the obscure sport of ice swimming.  That's swimming in water less than 5degC (41degF) for distances of normally 1km and up to a mile.  It's a fascinating sport for a science fanatic and skeptic as in the 10 years it's been around we've learned a lot about how the body reacts to cold water. Every event we collect more data and learn more about cold and one's body. Yet hanging around with the doctors who look after us, I have realised there is still so much they don't know.

My question for the forum is on the concept that we can raise our body temperature in a Pavlovian response prior to entering the cold water. It's called Anticipatory Thermo-Genesis.  It was coined by a controversial doctor (Prof Tim Noakes). I don't want to poison the well here (I'm no fan of Prof Noakes), but was wondering if anyone had any informed opinions on the topic?  Is there anything here (a bit like the yogi's who allegedly can bring on a sweat). The doctors I have spoken to do not know.

Tim Noakes is a pretty serious researcher. He's someone who completely changed is review on a broad range of metabolic and nutrition issues based on research and science. I wouldn't dismiss (or accept) anything, simply based on his say so.

This seems plausible, and like it could be a fairly easy hypothesis to test. Not sure how you could double blind it, though.

I have a friend who does similar swims regularly (SF Bay) and I'll run it by him.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: Anticipatory Thermo-Genesis
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2019, 04:56:05 PM »
My question for the forum is on the concept that we can raise our body temperature in a Pavlovian response prior to entering the cold water.

Wouldn't surprise me.  Anticipation affects physiology all the time.  Heart rate, hormones, etc. in response to meetings, dates, etc.  Body temperature is very much regulated.  Regulation of such things is very much affected by mind.  So why not? 

(a bit like the yogi's who allegedly can bring on a sweat)

Googled this and found something similar. Apparently Tibetan monks have a practice whereby (1) forceful breathing increases temp (by simple activity) and (2) the meditative component discernibly prolongs the elevated temperature. 

Edit, disclaimer: I only read the abstract.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 05:11:56 PM by Soldier of FORTRAN »
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Offline lonely moa

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Re: Anticipatory Thermo-Genesis
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2019, 09:07:06 PM »
Then there is Wim Hof.  He maintained his body temperature for 72 minutes in an ice bath, remaining still.

Just another of his rather interesting world records.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Anticipatory Thermo-Genesis
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2019, 10:48:59 AM »
I myself have spent as much as five minutes in ocean water in the middle of winter with no other protection than regular lightweight lycra swim shorts. (Actually cycling shorts, which I use as swim shorts since I don't like the loose-fitting swim shorts.)
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Offline lonely moa

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Re: Anticipatory Thermo-Genesis
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2019, 02:06:07 PM »
I myself have spent as much as five minutes in ocean water in the middle of winter with no other protection than regular lightweight lycra swim shorts. (Actually cycling shorts, which I use as swim shorts since I don't like the loose-fitting swim shorts.)

Swimming with wet chamois... yuck.
"Pull the goalie", Malcolm Gladwell.

Offline maydont

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Re: Anticipatory Thermo-Genesis
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2019, 02:20:49 PM »
24 months ago I took up the obscure sport of ice swimming.  That's swimming in water less than 5degC (41degF) for distances of normally 1km and up to a mile.  It's a fascinating sport for a science fanatic and skeptic as in the 10 years it's been around we've learned a lot about how the body reacts to cold water. Every event we collect more data and learn more about cold and one's body. Yet hanging around with the doctors who look after us, I have realised there is still so much they don't know.

My question for the forum is on the concept that we can raise our body temperature in a Pavlovian response prior to entering the cold water. It's called Anticipatory Thermo-Genesis.  It was coined by a controversial doctor (Prof Tim Noakes). I don't want to poison the well here (I'm no fan of Prof Noakes), but was wondering if anyone had any informed opinions on the topic?  Is there anything here (a bit like the yogi's who allegedly can bring on a sweat). The doctors I have spoken to do not know.

Tim Noakes is a pretty serious researcher. He's someone who completely changed is review on a broad range of metabolic and nutrition issues based on research and science.

In his latter years his use of science is highly questionable (Tweeting - potentially dangerous - statements promoting high fat diets before scientific proof is published).  He's developed a Galilean/messianic complex.   He has even jumped on the vaccine/autism bandwagon. 

Quote
This seems plausible, and like it could be a fairly easy hypothesis to test. Not sure how you could double blind it, though.

I have a friend who does similar swims regularly (SF Bay) and I'll run it by him.

I've chatted extensively to Emergency doctors that accompany us on the swims and they take tympanic temperature measures which are not great. Only rectal thermometers or pill-type thermometers give a true core-reading. (I haven't put my hand up for the former; and the latter is quite pricey).     

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Anticipatory Thermo-Genesis
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2019, 03:04:27 PM »


Tim Noakes is a pretty serious researcher. He's someone who completely changed is review on a broad range of metabolic and nutrition issues based on research and science.

Quote
In his latter years his use of science is highly questionable (Tweeting - potentially dangerous - statements promoting high fat diets before scientific proof is published).

WTF? LCHF diets are his specific area of expertise. He has studied them, and published articles in peer review journals and has established himself as one of the top experts in the field of nutrition.

He tweeted a response to a breastfeeding mother who was asking for his advice on diet.

The mother's tweet read: 
Quote
@ProfTimNoakes @SalCreed is LCHF eating ok for breastfeeding mums? Worried about all the dairy + cauliflower = wind for babies?? (sic)

She's worried that her eating a LC diet will make baby fart. (it won't)

Noakes advised her to wean her child onto LCHF foods, which he described as "real" foods.

His tweet read:
Quote
Baby doesn't eat the dairy and cauliflower. Just very healthy high-fat breast milk. Key is to ween (sic) baby onto LCHF.

That is perfectly reasonable advice, and technically correct, and, given the context, totally appropriate.

Whether it was the height of irony or hypocrisy he was accused by dietitians of not following science.

And he was completely exonerated.

Quote
He's developed a Galilean/messianic complex. 

That's your totally subjective opinion. Nothing more.

Quote
He has even jumped on the vaccine/autism bandwagon. 

This is nonsense. Here's his response to those accusations.

http://www.foodmed.net/2018/noakes-mcalpine-response.pdf

 
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline jt512

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Re: Anticipatory Thermo-Genesis
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2019, 05:04:56 PM »
Can't really know unless we see studies.


Or unless we understand the underlying science.
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Offline lonely moa

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Re: Anticipatory Thermo-Genesis
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2019, 11:02:00 PM »
Wim Hof says (and he has been rigorously measured) that Tantric meditation is how he manages, whatever that entails.  He does hold the under ice record distance, in just togs and goggles.
"Pull the goalie", Malcolm Gladwell.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Anticipatory Thermo-Genesis
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2019, 10:24:59 AM »
I myself have spent as much as five minutes in ocean water in the middle of winter with no other protection than regular lightweight lycra swim shorts. (Actually cycling shorts, which I use as swim shorts since I don't like the loose-fitting swim shorts.)

Swimming with wet chamois... yuck.

Lycra is not chamois. Chamois absorbs and holds water. Lycra is an ultra-thin fabric that holds virtually no water at all. It stretches easily and moves with the body and does not bunch up in the crotch or ride up like loose-fitting shorts which can leave the dangling parts exposed. And it does not feel clammy when you get out of the water.

Maybe you're thinking of cycling shorts that have absorbent fabric inside. Mine don't.
Daniel
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Offline lonely moa

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Re: Anticipatory Thermo-Genesis
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2019, 02:28:10 PM »
I myself have spent as much as five minutes in ocean water in the middle of winter with no other protection than regular lightweight lycra swim shorts. (Actually cycling shorts, which I use as swim shorts since I don't like the loose-fitting swim shorts.)

Swimming with wet chamois... yuck.

Lycra is not chamois. Chamois absorbs and holds water. Lycra is an ultra-thin fabric that holds virtually no water at all. It stretches easily and moves with the body and does not bunch up in the crotch or ride up like loose-fitting shorts which can leave the dangling parts exposed. And it does not feel clammy when you get out of the water.

Maybe you're thinking of cycling shorts that have absorbent fabric inside. Mine don't.

You don't spend much time in the saddle, do you? 
"Pull the goalie", Malcolm Gladwell.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Anticipatory Thermo-Genesis
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2019, 07:31:41 PM »
I myself have spent as much as five minutes in ocean water in the middle of winter with no other protection than regular lightweight lycra swim shorts. (Actually cycling shorts, which I use as swim shorts since I don't like the loose-fitting swim shorts.)

Swimming with wet chamois... yuck.

Lycra is not chamois. Chamois absorbs and holds water. Lycra is an ultra-thin fabric that holds virtually no water at all. It stretches easily and moves with the body and does not bunch up in the crotch or ride up like loose-fitting shorts which can leave the dangling parts exposed. And it does not feel clammy when you get out of the water.

Maybe you're thinking of cycling shorts that have absorbent fabric inside. Mine don't.

You don't spend much time in the saddle, do you? 

I was probably 8 years old the one time I sat on a horse. What does that have to do with swim shorts?
Daniel
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"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline lonely moa

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Re: Anticipatory Thermo-Genesis
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2019, 12:05:23 AM »
I myself have spent as much as five minutes in ocean water in the middle of winter with no other protection than regular lightweight lycra swim shorts. (Actually cycling shorts, which I use as swim shorts since I don't like the loose-fitting swim shorts.)

Swimming with wet chamois... yuck.

Lycra is not chamois. Chamois absorbs and holds water. Lycra is an ultra-thin fabric that holds virtually no water at all. It stretches easily and moves with the body and does not bunch up in the crotch or ride up like loose-fitting shorts which can leave the dangling parts exposed. And it does not feel clammy when you get out of the water.

Maybe you're thinking of cycling shorts that have absorbent fabric inside. Mine don't.

You don't spend much time in the saddle, do you? 

I was probably 8 years old the one time I sat on a horse. What does that have to do with swim shorts?

You really don't spend much time in the saddle.

wiki
Quote
A bicycle saddle, often called a seat

And bike shorts are cut for sitting in the saddle, not walking or swimming, for that matter... 
"Pull the goalie", Malcolm Gladwell.

 

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