Author Topic: Episode #721  (Read 1755 times)

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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2019, 10:36:47 PM »
Regardless of what the CIA has or has not done specifically, it is pretty hard to disagree that intelligence organisations are necessary for national security. We've all got one. Australia has at least five separate intelligence organisations that I am aware of, and probably several more that I'm not. I would be willing to bet that they have done things that I wouldn't agree with, but I still support them. Intelligence by its nature is a dark and messy task.

Making intelligence agencies better than they have been in the past is a good goal, in my opinion.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2019, 01:15:11 AM »
I know nothing about the Australian intelligence agencies. The CIA has a long a bloody history of murder, torture, overthrowing democratically-elected governments, and directly training, arming, and financing terrorists. If this is necessary for our national security then we do not deserve to be secure. A nation that is willing to do what the CIA has done, does not deserve to exist. If the CIA were truly the information gatherer and analyzer that the rogues seem to regard it as, and its crimes were just the rare and occasional acts of rogue agents, I would support them in their support of it. But these have not been the occasional acts of rogue agents. The CIA's crimes have been massive, and a frequent and regular part of its operations, directed from the very top. They are an integral part of the organization and a fundamental reason for its existence. It is a terrorist, criminal organization at its very core, that happens to also gather and analyze intelligence in the pursuit of its goals, which are to further the political and military ends of the administration without regard to the death and suffering it leaves in its wake, or even the long-term consequences of its activities, as for example when it created Al-Qaeda to fight the Russians, giving rise to 9/11. The rogues are wearing blinders if they truly believe that the CIA is nothing but an "intelligence" agency.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2019, 01:30:30 AM »
Yes, I fully understand that you hate the CIA and everything it stands for with a burning passion that surpasses the heat of a volcano. But you should be realistic. Intelligence agencies don't just passively gather intelligence. They also act covertly in the defence of the nation, according to the policies of the time. In some cases these actions can definitely be considered at least morally questionable, which is why they are generally done covertly.

I believe that the United States use of the atomic bomb on Japan was morally questionable. I believe that the United States starting a war against Iraq was morally questionable. The United States has done a lot of things that in my opinion are morally questionable. I don't call the United States a terrorist organisation, and I don't believe that anyone who supports the United States should be burned at the stake.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2019, 11:13:37 AM »
Yes, I fully understand that you hate the CIA and everything it stands for with a burning passion that surpasses the heat of a volcano. But you should be realistic. Intelligence agencies don't just passively gather intelligence. They also act covertly in the defence of the nation, according to the policies of the time. In some cases these actions can definitely be considered at least morally questionable, which is why they are generally done covertly.

I believe that the United States use of the atomic bomb on Japan was morally questionable. I believe that the United States starting a war against Iraq was morally questionable. The United States has done a lot of things that in my opinion are morally questionable. I don't call the United States a terrorist organisation, and I don't believe that anyone who supports the United States should be burned at the stake.

Using the A-bomb on Japan and starting the Iraq war were not "morally questionable." They were war crimes under the terms of international law and the precedents set by the Nuremberg trials and common humanity. Nobody should ever be burned at the stake. But the people who made those decisions should have been tried as war criminals and sentenced to prison. The CIA is a criminal organization and the people who have run it during those activities, and the presidents who have given the orders to carry them out, should be tried for crimes against humanity and sentenced to prison, just as most of us would agree that mobsters should be tried for their crimes and sentenced to prison. The fact that the CIA serves a government administration does not change the fact that murder and many of its other actions are crimes, and within our system of law, presidents and other government officials and employees are not supposed to be above the law.
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Offline seamas

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2019, 01:19:44 PM »
If we were to abolish the CIA we would --as any SANE country would--immediately replace it with a new intelligence gathering agency with different name that does the exact same thing.

Really no different from ICE.

Online CarbShark

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2019, 07:21:20 PM »
There was nothing in international law that made using atomic weapons on Japan a war crime.

The Persian Gulf War and the Iraq war we’re both done under UN authority. Going to was was not a war crime. There was conduct  during the wars that could be.


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Online 2397

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2019, 07:49:26 AM »
If Thanos wants to cut the population in half he could just force all farms in the Universe to use "organic" methods: that way no planet could ever maintain a large population again. ;)

Also, since randomness can be clumpy, is there a chance that he could have accidentally wiped out just one gender of a race or species somewhere? “Oops...”

He wanted to reduce the population to the carrying capacity of the planet, not reduce the carrying capacity of the planet. The whole premise is very Earth-centric, though, because it's not credible that all the planets in the universe would have the same overpopulation issue at the same time.

Your second point is very true: If he kills a random half of the population on every one of a hundred trillion planets, he'll end up wiping out a few million of them. A much better solution is a controlled reduction in fertility so the population gradually declines to a sustainable level.

Indeed, non-birth is the far superior solution to mass murder. Even as a villain, it would be the smarter move, because it would make for a less dramatic impact, less chance for retaliation, but have longer lasting consequences. Unless you're doing the interspecies mass murdering version, and botch the global ecosystem like climate change is about to.

Online 2397

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2019, 07:55:50 AM »
Did the SGU just make the "If we wouldn't have done it, someone else would have." defense in regard to their CIA visits? Jeez Louise.

That's not actually what Evan said. He said that if the CIA was going to approach someone for consulting on podcasting (which they were), it's better that it was SGU and not someone else.

After all, it would have been much worse if they consulted with Joe Rogan instead.

Yes, he said that it was better that the SGU did it, as if they're going to change the CIA for the better by working with them, while not confronting the CIA about any of the problems with the organization.

Like the US selling arms and military intelligence to Saudi Arabia, because imagine how much worse it would be if someone other than the US helped them slaughter civilians in Yemen.

Online 2397

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2019, 08:00:10 AM »
If we were to abolish the CIA we would --as any SANE country would--immediately replace it with a new intelligence gathering agency with different name that does the exact same thing.

Really no different from ICE.

The sane thing to do would be to launch an investigation to flush out the organization of all people who have been involved in torture and other war crimes. If the organization has to be dismantled entirely to accomplish it, then do that. Some of what it does is necessary, keep that, rebuild that, whatever. But don't brush aside torture and various anti-human activities as if they are essential to operating an intelligence agency.

Offline seamas

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2019, 10:32:00 AM »
If we were to abolish the CIA we would --as any SANE country would--immediately replace it with a new intelligence gathering agency with different name that does the exact same thing.

Really no different from ICE.

The sane thing to do would be to launch an investigation to flush out the organization of all people who have been involved in torture and other war crimes. If the organization has to be dismantled entirely to accomplish it, then do that. Some of what it does is necessary, keep that, rebuild that, whatever. But don't brush aside torture and various anti-human activities as if they are essential to operating an intelligence agency.

I wasn't fucking "brushing aside" anything.

Offline seamas

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2019, 10:38:44 AM »
There was nothing in international law that made using atomic weapons on Japan a war crime.

Or what those bombings had to do with the CIA.
It was an oval office decision, decidedly LESS deadly than hundreds of non-nuclear bombings of the war, and occurred before the CIA was even established.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2019, 12:18:48 PM »
When they mentioned the experiences that they as activist skeptics had, I can't recall Evan stating any. Is this correct, or did I just lose attention? If it is correct, then why is that?

Steve mentioned visiting the CIA, Bob mentioned visiting the LOTR place in New Zealand, Cara mentioned partying with Stephen Hawking, and Jay mentioned meeting various people from around the world who are fellow skeptics.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2019, 09:56:01 PM »
When they mentioned the experiences that they as activist skeptics had, I can't recall Evan stating any. Is this correct, or did I just lose attention? If it is correct, then why is that?

Steve mentioned visiting the CIA, Bob mentioned visiting the LOTR place in New Zealand, Cara mentioned partying with Stephen Hawking, and Jay mentioned meeting various people from around the world who are fellow skeptics.

The show is edited quite heavily before being made available. I'd expect that it had to be cut for time.
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Online 2397

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2019, 08:01:09 AM »
If we were to abolish the CIA we would --as any SANE country would--immediately replace it with a new intelligence gathering agency with different name that does the exact same thing.

Really no different from ICE.

The sane thing to do would be to launch an investigation to flush out the organization of all people who have been involved in torture and other war crimes. If the organization has to be dismantled entirely to accomplish it, then do that. Some of what it does is necessary, keep that, rebuild that, whatever. But don't brush aside torture and various anti-human activities as if they are essential to operating an intelligence agency.

I wasn't fucking "brushing aside" anything.

Fair enough. But that's my response to the SGU's and the general sentiment that the CIA is not something that needs to be taken to task for the crimes that they have been committing and enabling.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2019, 12:42:37 PM »
When they mentioned the experiences that they as activist skeptics had, I can't recall Evan stating any. Is this correct, or did I just lose attention? If it is correct, then why is that?

Steve mentioned visiting the CIA, Bob mentioned visiting the LOTR place in New Zealand, Cara mentioned partying with Stephen Hawking, and Jay mentioned meeting various people from around the world who are fellow skeptics.

The show is edited quite heavily before being made available. I'd expect that it had to be cut for time.

Sure. But it still feels strange to completely edit out someone's response in this circumstance.
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