Author Topic: Episode #721  (Read 2653 times)

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Online 2397

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2019, 02:20:15 PM »
If a group of skeptics, who are supposed to be experts on the topic of rational thinking, visited the CIA, I'd think that the first thing they'd talk about was the intelligence errors that led to the Iraq war, for instance.  It seems like a gold mine of motivated reasoning and logical fallacies.  I suppose that because the rogues are all American, they've been propagandized pretty thoroughly with the story that the Americans are the "good guys".

The CIA is a huge department. They have 20k employees and a $15b budget.

Very few analysts, accountants, statisticians or agents had anything to do with the Iraq war.

That's like complaining to the movie theater usher that you didn't like the dialog in second scene of the movie.

Or boycotting a theater chain where one of the board members, among others working for the chain, helped the government commit torture, and then became the CEO.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2019, 03:34:02 PM »
If a group of skeptics, who are supposed to be experts on the topic of rational thinking, visited the CIA, I'd think that the first thing they'd talk about was the intelligence errors that led to the Iraq war, for instance.  It seems like a gold mine of motivated reasoning and logical fallacies.  I suppose that because the rogues are all American, they've been propagandized pretty thoroughly with the story that the Americans are the "good guys".

The CIA is a huge department. They have 20k employees and a $15b budget.

Very few analysts, accountants, statisticians or agents had anything to do with the Iraq war.

That's like complaining to the movie theater usher that you didn't like the dialog in second scene of the movie.


I worked as a translator in a legal aid office. I didn't do any of the law work. I just translated letters and documents and informational materials. I had almost no direct contact with the people our office helped but I'm proud of the work I did because it was an ancillary part of the work the office did and was necessary in order for the office to function.

If instead the office had been an assassination company, my work would have been criminal even if I never killed anyone and never saw any of the victims and all I did was translate documents that the assassins needed. You cannot divorce yourself from the bottom-line work of the agency merely because your work there is only ancillary. If the agency is doing good you deserve credit. If it's doing evil, you deserve blame.
Daniel
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"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2019, 04:21:47 PM »
If a group of skeptics, who are supposed to be experts on the topic of rational thinking, visited the CIA, I'd think that the first thing they'd talk about was the intelligence errors that led to the Iraq war, for instance.  It seems like a gold mine of motivated reasoning and logical fallacies.  I suppose that because the rogues are all American, they've been propagandized pretty thoroughly with the story that the Americans are the "good guys".

The CIA is a huge department. They have 20k employees and a $15b budget.

Very few analysts, accountants, statisticians or agents had anything to do with the Iraq war.

That's like complaining to the movie theater usher that you didn't like the dialog in second scene of the movie.


I worked as a translator in a legal aid office. I didn't do any of the law work. I just translated letters and documents and informational materials. I had almost no direct contact with the people our office helped but I'm proud of the work I did because it was an ancillary part of the work the office did and was necessary in order for the office to function.

If instead the office had been an assassination company, my work would have been criminal even if I never killed anyone and never saw any of the victims and all I did was translate documents that the assassins needed. You cannot divorce yourself from the bottom-line work of the agency merely because your work there is only ancillary. If the agency is doing good you deserve credit. If it's doing evil, you deserve blame.

And what if the firm had been doing both? Say one partner out of dozens had been ordering assassinations.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2019, 09:08:35 PM »
If a group of skeptics, who are supposed to be experts on the topic of rational thinking, visited the CIA, I'd think that the first thing they'd talk about was the intelligence errors that led to the Iraq war, for instance.  It seems like a gold mine of motivated reasoning and logical fallacies.  I suppose that because the rogues are all American, they've been propagandized pretty thoroughly with the story that the Americans are the "good guys".

The CIA is a huge department. They have 20k employees and a $15b budget.

Very few analysts, accountants, statisticians or agents had anything to do with the Iraq war.

That's like complaining to the movie theater usher that you didn't like the dialog in second scene of the movie.


I worked as a translator in a legal aid office. I didn't do any of the law work. I just translated letters and documents and informational materials. I had almost no direct contact with the people our office helped but I'm proud of the work I did because it was an ancillary part of the work the office did and was necessary in order for the office to function.

If instead the office had been an assassination company, my work would have been criminal even if I never killed anyone and never saw any of the victims and all I did was translate documents that the assassins needed. You cannot divorce yourself from the bottom-line work of the agency merely because your work there is only ancillary. If the agency is doing good you deserve credit. If it's doing evil, you deserve blame.

And what if the firm had been doing both? Say one partner out of dozens had been ordering assassinations.

How is that comment relevant to an agency that exists to do crap that's so nasty that even the American people would not stand for it if they knew?

But I will answer your question anyway:

If one partner out of dozens is ordering assassinations and the other partners know and do nothing to stop it, then they are all accessories to the crime and the agency is a criminal organization.

(Somewhat off topic, the office where I worked was not a partnership. It was one section of a larger non-profit legal aid agency. Our office, and the larger agency as a whole, provided free legal services to poor people. Our lawyers were not partners, just employees. If they had been doing anything illegal and I knew about it, I'd have been an accessory. If they had been doing anything to hurt people and I had known and not tried to stop it, I'd have deserved blame.)
Daniel
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"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Online 2397

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2019, 01:03:43 AM »
This is the current administration.

Quote
Trump May Be Preparing Pardons for Servicemen Accused of War Crimes

President Trump has indicated that he is considering pardons for several American military members accused or convicted of war crimes, including high-profile cases of murder, attempted murder and desecration of a corpse, according to two United States officials.

The officials said that the Trump administration had made expedited requests this week for paperwork needed to pardon the troops on or around Memorial Day.

One request is for Special Operations Chief Edward Gallagher of the Navy SEALs, who is scheduled to stand trial in the coming weeks on charges of shooting unarmed civilians and killing an enemy captive with a knife while deployed in Iraq.

The others are believed to include the case of a former Blackwater security contractor recently found guilty in the deadly 2007 shooting of dozens of unarmed Iraqis; the case of Maj. Mathew L. Golsteyn, the Army Green Beret accused of killing an unarmed Afghan in 2010; and the case of a group of Marine Corps snipers charged with urinating on the corpses of dead Taliban fighters.

The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly, said they had not seen a complete list, and did not know if other service members were included in the request for pardon paperwork.

The White House sent requests on Friday to the Justice Department’s Office of the Pardon Attorney, which alerted the military branches, according to one senior military official. Pardon files include background information and details on criminal charges, and in many cases include letters describing how the person in question has made amends.

Offline lucek

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2019, 09:35:30 PM »
Can i just say wow this is a long and pretty pointless conversation. It pretty clear you aren't even conversing. I'm actually kinda impressed how many words were used to convey just about nothing back and forth.

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Power is just energy over time and. . .
Energy is just the ability to do work.

Offline lucek

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2019, 10:00:14 PM »
Adding art to STEM is silly.  The whole point of STEM as a thing is that they are fields with consistently low unemployment and good wages but American kids are fairly intimidated by. 

Art is the opposite of that.  Also, is there anything actually excluded from STEAM?  Political science and law maybe?

I'm pretty sure that someone mentioned "STEAM" fields in this episode, may have been last week.
At least the sgu hasn't started backing STREAM feilds yet. (Science technology reading/writing engineering art and math).

That said after reading about it more Steam isn't seperate from STEM it's meant to make STEM more palatable to childeren. I think it's pandering. Oh kids won't get biology have them make seed a necklace. Kids don't get chemistry but might like growing pretty crystals. Art is there to sugar coat the ickieness of STEM. I actually think this is a worse idea. It reinforces the idea that STEM isn't fun and interesting while watering down the usefulness of the program.
You have the power, but. . .
Power is just energy over time and. . .
Energy is just the ability to do work.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2019, 11:51:23 AM »
Art should not be a part of STEM. Art should be a part of a well-rounded education. A student going into a STEM field should learn about art, though it may not be necessary to learn how to produce it; and a student going into art should have a basic understanding of science and math. A well-rounded education should include at least a bit of everything.
Daniel
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"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2019, 04:13:22 PM »
Art should not be a part of STEM. Art should be a part of a well-rounded education. A student going into a STEM field should learn about art, though it may not be necessary to learn how to produce it; and a student going into art should have a basic understanding of science and math. A well-rounded education should include at least a bit of everything.

If you include art, you make it easier to get funding.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2019, 07:30:43 PM »
Art should be taught. It's part of being human. It does not fall into the STEM group. "STEAM" just isn't a useful category for anything. And we already have a word for "STREAM." We call it school.
Daniel
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"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Online 2397

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2019, 09:20:50 AM »
From what I know about American general education (in part thanks to the SGU), the time spent on science needs to be doubled or more. Counting art and STEM together sounds like it would allow for fulfilling STEM requirements without spending more time on STEM.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2019, 11:03:31 AM »
Art should be taught. It's part of being human. It does not fall into the STEM group. "STEAM" just isn't a useful category for anything. 

I know mathematicians and musicians who would disagree.

The problem is that funding cuts for education (thanks Republicans) have hit STEM and Arts the hardest. To claw back funding for those programs takes a concerted effort and the larger the effort the better chance of success.

There are people who are adamant about funding for STEM as their highest priority.

There are other people who are adamant about funding for the Arts as their highest priority.

Rather than having those groups fighting each other for their program, it's better to have them working together to get funding for STEAM.

And anyone who says there is no relation between STEM and Arts doesn't really understand STEM or Arts.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline swan

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2019, 02:20:22 PM »
The STEAM (etc.) things reminds me of how some people insist on trying to shoehorn their pet causes into the core of scientific skepticism...

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2019, 05:22:00 PM »
The STEAM (etc.) things reminds me of how some people insist on trying to shoehorn their pet causes into the core of scientific skepticism...

Sure, and that's reasonable.

There are also arts advocates who would be critical of STEM advocates for shoehorning their cause onto a movement for increased funding for arts.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #721
« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2019, 08:46:01 PM »
STEM funding vs. arts funding is a false dichotomy. We need more money for EDUCATION across the board. Everything is related to everything else. Sure, there's a mathematical side to music, and science can be applied to art.

But art is not stem, and to claim they belong in the same category (other than the category of EDUCATION) is just silly. Horses and earthworms are both animals. But we don't try to say that earthworms are mammals just because they and horses are both animals.
Daniel
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"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

 

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