Author Topic: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota  (Read 4006 times)

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Offline brilligtove

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I am amused by the length of this thread.  I wouldn't have thrown out the eggs.  I would have eaten them but probably not have fed them to my toddler and baby. 

I am surprised by the passion for such a rather mundane thing. 

Seriously 8 pages? 

Its a great lesson for the threads about things that actually matter.   Maybe I won't get so frustrated talking in circles about politics if I remember that we did the same thing for 8+ pages on boiled eggs.

I would argue that food safety discussion matters more than some of the crap in the politics forum even if it is only about eggs.  >:D

superdave didn't answer yet and nobody else commented.

*to anyone*

Is it a good idea to turn this into a food safety thread or should I start another one?

Now that I've added to this, I think you should start a food safety thread. I'd like to hear about what kinds of things you need to do to keep things safe in the truck, but also talk about more general issues.
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Offline lonely moa

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Now that I've added to this, I think you should start a food safety thread. I'd like to hear about what kinds of things you need to do to keep things safe in the truck, but also talk about more general issues.

Good idea. 
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Offline Captain Video

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I have been waiting to have a discussion on condiments. Nobody refrigerates them at restaurants even though they say to refrigerate on the bottles. It seems to be ok not too because of salt and vinegar and I don't know any restaurant that does at least not the squirt bottles.

I make my own sauces, my "BBQ Red" is really a Memphis style red sauce, its mostly ketchup, vinegar, sugar, and other seasonings that are all normally considered shelf stable on their own except I start by cooking some minced onion before adding anything and I reduce everything over heat, is my sauce still shelf stable? I'm currently doing half and half, I'm refrigerating the larger batch and not the squeeze bottles I put out for my customers. I would like to make larger batches but don't have the refrigerator space, I want to make 5 gallon buckets and store it on the shelf.

my "BBQ Yellow" has a similar issue, its not cooked and its mostly mustard, vinegar, and honey but it also contains a small amount of melted butter.

Oddly enough for personal use I do keep my ketchup and mustard in the fridge but this is out of habit. I'm refrigerating neither for work. I use plastic #10 cans with pumps. The pumps are cleaned at the end of the shift and replaced by normal lids for storage.

What is safe? and if they are shelf safe, for how long? 
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Offline lonely moa

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I make my own chile salsa and salsa verde.  I put it up in 400ml pop up lid jars (peanut butter, pasta sauce, jam...) I get from the recycling bins.  Lasts for years (except most get eaten before the end of the next harvest).  Gotta be sure to sterilise things and that the lids pop down.  Opened, the salsas get better for fortnight then the mould arrives.




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Offline Captain Video

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I have considered canning in jars if it turns out the sauce is not shelf stable but that would add more labor and time.

My partner is servsafe certified but does not remember the question coming up when he took the class if it did at all. I plan on taking it myself and I'm sure they will give me the best answer that fits in with American food safety regulations but in the meantime I wanted to see if anyone else has any incite.
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Online CarbShark

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If you’re making your own condiments, you probably want to refrigerate them.

The ones you get at the supermarket and restaurant supply store have preservatives that inhibit bacterial growth. (Although the organic versions may not)


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Offline Captain Video

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If you’re making your own condiments, you probably want to refrigerate them.

The ones you get at the supermarket and restaurant supply store have preservatives that inhibit bacterial growth. (Although the organic versions may not)


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All of the sauce our just the holding sauce? I have never seen a restaurant refrigerate BBQ sauce, its on the tables.

I did find this

https://www.thespruceeats.com/foods-that-dont-go-in-the-fridge-995448

Quote
The median pH value for commercial barbecue sauce is 3.92, and it ranges from 3.47–4.15. Since food with a pH value lower than 4.5 is too acidic to support the growth of spoilage bacteria, it's safe to store barbecue sauce at room temperature, in your cupboard or pantry.

I don't know what my PH is but now i'm going to find out. I have seen the strips sold at the restaurant supply store.

interesting about the butter too which I was concerned about in my non cooked sauce.

Quote
Butter is mostly fat and contains very little protein—not enough to support the growth of bacteria. Salted butter has an even longer shelf life. But unless you're following a recipe for pie dough, cookies or scones that calls for cold butter, there is no need to refrigerate it.
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Offline Guillermo

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I have been waiting to have a discussion on condiments. Nobody refrigerates them at restaurants even though they say to refrigerate on the bottles. It seems to be ok not too because of salt and vinegar and I don't know any restaurant that does at least not the squirt bottles.

I make my own sauces, my "BBQ Red" is really a Memphis style red sauce, its mostly ketchup, vinegar, sugar, and other seasonings that are all normally considered shelf stable on their own except I start by cooking some minced onion before adding anything and I reduce everything over heat, is my sauce still shelf stable? I'm currently doing half and half, I'm refrigerating the larger batch and not the squeeze bottles I put out for my customers. I would like to make larger batches but don't have the refrigerator space, I want to make 5 gallon buckets and store it on the shelf.

my "BBQ Yellow" has a similar issue, its not cooked and its mostly mustard, vinegar, and honey but it also contains a small amount of melted butter.

Oddly enough for personal use I do keep my ketchup and mustard in the fridge but this is out of habit. I'm refrigerating neither for work. I use plastic #10 cans with pumps. The pumps are cleaned at the end of the shift and replaced by normal lids for storage.

What is safe? and if they are shelf safe, for how long? 
Basically, high acidic foods can last longer after opened. If it contains salt or other preservatives like sodium Benzoate they can last longer. These are not good environments for most bacteria and molds.

tldr: Your BBQ Red and BBQ Yellow seem shelf stable Because of the Vinegar, Ketchup and honey. Keep Good Health Practices and you should be fine.

Most restaurants refrigerate their condiments (ketchup and stuff) after hours. But it shouldn't be a problem if left on the shelf for some days. The thing is that the rotation tends to be high so a bottle of ketchup would not last a week and the good restaurants will throw out anything that is older than a week or so.

The thing with with the comercial products, is that if left on the cupboard the quality degrades as oxidation and some bacteria and mold would change the color, texture, and taste. So manufacturers are more concerned with this, because the quality will decrease considerably before the product spoils. So they suggest refrigeration, to keep the quality the longest. The numbers are not easily available but spoilage for ketchup after opened and on the cupboard might take around 2 to 3 months. You get a quality dip at around the 1 month mark. With refrigeration it last somewhere between 6 to 12 months.

Your products seem shelf stable. You could perform a stability test. Take two samples. Place one in the fridge and one in the cupboard. Every week test for freshness and quality on both. When you find the Cupboard sample not to your standard, that is your recommended shelf life.

It is also important to consider how much of the condiment is used per week. So if a bottle is used up in a week, or if they last months.

Regardless you should follow some good health practices.
1) Keep your condiments in the fridge on off hours.
2) Always clean and sterilize the containers.
3) Place a sticker with the date of manufacture or a best by date. This you get it with the stability test. This way you always know when your condiment is starting to lose quality.
4) throw away any condiment that is too old.
5) Don't combine used condiments.
6) Be aware of dirt and other contaminantes.

You can store your bulk on the shelf until you open it the first time. Canning is good, but you could find a large container that is airtight, and you should be fine. Just make sure to always label the dates, and once you open the container, it should go to the fridge.

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Online bachfiend

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I bemused by the claims that an unshelled hard boiled egg in a pot of sterile boiled water is unsafe after being at room temperature for 8 hours, but that an opened bottle of tomato sauce is safe after being at room temperature for 8 weeks.

I keep my tomato sauce in the fridge (I use it so rarely, it’s the one ‘food’ that I discard because it’s gone off, usually due to surface moulds in the bottle), but I’ll happily eat unshelled hard boiled eggs left at room temperature for 8 hours (but I re-hard boil them before eating, because I like them hot, which must eliminate the already negligible safety risk). 
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Offline jt512

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If you’re making your own condiments, you probably want to refrigerate them.

The ones you get at the supermarket and restaurant supply store have preservatives that inhibit bacterial growth. (Although the organic versions may not)


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All of the sauce our just the holding sauce? I have never seen a restaurant refrigerate BBQ sauce, its on the tables.

I did find this

https://www.thespruceeats.com/foods-that-dont-go-in-the-fridge-995448

Quote
The median pH value for commercial barbecue sauce is 3.92, and it ranges from 3.47–4.15. Since food with a pH value lower than 4.5 is too acidic to support the growth of spoilage bacteria, it's safe to store barbecue sauce at room temperature, in your cupboard or pantry.

I don't know what my PH is but now i'm going to find out. I have seen the strips sold at the restaurant supply store.

interesting about the butter too which I was concerned about in my non cooked sauce.

Quote
Butter is mostly fat and contains very little protein—not enough to support the growth of bacteria. Salted butter has an even longer shelf life. But unless you're following a recipe for pie dough, cookies or scones that calls for cold butter, there is no need to refrigerate it.


Butter may not spoil, but it will become rancid.  I think you need to find another website.
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Offline lonely moa

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Butter may not spoil, but it will become rancid.  I think you need to find another website.

Not in our house.... a 500g block only last four or five days.  Too yummy.
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Offline xenu

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(Caution Old man rant)

When I was growing up my mom never refrigerated the butter. Never liked it cold, it was much to hard to spread.
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Online CarbShark

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I bemused by the claims that an unshelled hard boiled egg in a pot of sterile boiled water is unsafe after being at room temperature for 8 hours, but that an opened bottle of tomato sauce is safe after being at room temperature for 8 weeks.

I keep my tomato sauce in the fridge (I use it so rarely, it’s the one ‘food’ that I discard because it’s gone off, usually due to surface moulds in the bottle), but I’ll happily eat unshelled hard boiled eggs left at room temperature for 8 hours (but I re-hard boil them before eating, because I like them hot, which must eliminate the already negligible safety risk).
Ketchup is made with vinegar and is not a good medium for bacteria.

Eggs are a good medium for bacteria.


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Offline xenu

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  Eggs are a good medium for bacteria   

Don't forget viruses to  ;)
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Offline Captain Video

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Butter may not spoil, but it will become rancid.  I think you need to find another website.

im guessing you didnt go to the site, here is the rest of the quote

Quote
Like peanut butter, butter can go rancid if exposed to oxygen, light, and heat. But as long as you keep it in an opaque butter dish, and use it in a reasonable amount of time, it's perfectly OK to store butter on the kitchen counter.

I keep a stick of salted butter on the counter at all times, this is the tray I use, I recommend them.

https://www.amazon.com/Better-Dish-Flip-Top-without-Spreader/dp/B07JQ2PJM1/ref=zg_bs_367166011_30?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=R03SRDKRNCJVYCXSQJQ8

Growing up mom kept it in a glass covered tray as did my grandparents and it was still ok, probably because one stick barely lasted a whole day, maybe two.

There are few things worse than un spreadable cold butter ripping up your bread. I do keep the backups in the fridge

The site may have been simplistic but it lead me to ask the right questions in my research and it explained in simple terms why its ok.

Here is the FDA pdf: Evaluation and Definition of Potentially Hazardous Foods

https://www.fda.gov/media/103613/download

Quote
Product: Salted butter. The product is not held hot or cold
for safety. However, during commercial handling, storage, and
distribution product is held at low temperatures for quality reasons. The ingredients of the product are cream and salt. The
product is intended to be stored at ambient temperature.
Microbiological hazards: S. aureus, L. monocytogenes. There is
no history of safety problems when the consumer does not
control time/temperature of commercial salted butter.

Many food safety questions are answered in this document but Its hard to search and prefer to discuss them publicly. I mite want to treat my own preparations with more caution than the government allows based on quality.

Not to discount anyone else but Guillermos advice has been fantastic. I think this is a good conversation for all.
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