Author Topic: Episode #723  (Read 2475 times)

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Offline Zec

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Re: Episode #723
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2019, 10:05:48 AM »
Cara's activist self reveals itself again when she keeps using the term "factory farm", a term that she does not bother to define and is intended to evoke an emotional response

the exact opposite argument can be made that “modern farming” or “intensive farming” are  term meant to dilute the reality of farming being inherently cruel.
(which is a fact).
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 10:08:33 AM by Zec »

Offline DevoutCatalyst

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Re: Episode #723
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2019, 10:45:47 AM »
"Why do people insist on using the word factory farm? Factory farm is a term used to evoke emotion, or rather, lack of emotion. It’s a term used by those who oppose modern farming and want farmers to go back 'to the good old days' of farming. The problem with 'the good old days' is they really weren’t that 'good' in regards to animal care."
It's a topic the SGU should cover, or Neurologica.

Offline swan

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Re: Episode #723
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2019, 11:59:35 AM »
Is it just me, or is it not possible to see the information for each episode with the new website design? For example links to news items, the Science or Fiction items, and the skeptical quote.

The new design is pretty terrible to use, especially the "feature" where you can print the show notes but not actually read them (or search them, use the links, etc.) online. Oh, and the $%&#ing roll-up boxes so you can't search or scroll the list…! Fortunately they left the old site is running for now:


Maybe it won't last, but hopefully Jay and the volunteers can fix the biggest issues before they drop support for the old site. I think that they, like way too many people today, were trying to make their phone & tablet friendly without realizing how gawdawful it is to use something like that on a desktop or laptop. Let's hope that they learn rule #1 of software testing: Testing should be done only by people who believe that the developers are their mortal enemies.

Offline brilligtove

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Re: Episode #723
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2019, 12:23:20 PM »
Haven't listened yet but did they bring up:
  • Auctioning off legitimate culls as hunts to fund operations
  • 'Hunting' as a major support for conservation
Those are the two pro-hunting I'd accept even if I were ideologically opposed.

I would say that if it's only about money, with the trophy hunting functioning as an excuse to give money, that means it's not really trophy hunting that's helping. It's about sucking up to rich bastards. Which we don't need to do.

If they have that kind of money to throw away on what is a luxury to them, it means they can pay more in taxes, and our governments can fund the programs directly. There are some things we shouldn't leave up to the free market to sort out, and conservation is among them. Including global conservation. It should be in all of our interest to preserve as much of the global ecosystem as possible, barring a few parasites.

I agree that tourism isn't the answer, which apparently was part of what Cara heard them compare it to. Instead we should actively reduce the amount of tourism to both reduce global emissions, and the damage tourists can do directly. Such as running over animals by accident, killing animals in "self-defense" because they react violently to you being somewhere you have no reason to be, or drowning tortoises because you have no idea what you're doing. And leaving garbage everywhere that animals can choke on or be cut up by.

Let local professionals take care of the conservation aspect, and let trophy hunters hunt trophies in the form of something other than animals that there's nothing impressive about killing.

I'm curious what your qualifications and experience are in the domains of conservation, Africa (Namibia especially), and the intersection of the two?
evidence trumps experience | performance over perfection | responsibility – authority = scapegoat | emotions motivate; data doesn't

Online 2397

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Re: Episode #723
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2019, 01:07:45 PM »
I'm curious what your qualifications and experience are in the domains of conservation, Africa (Namibia especially), and the intersection of the two?

How about you give me some details, instead of trying to dismiss my comment without adding to the discussion.

What's wrong with my premise "if it's only about money"?

Offline brilligtove

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Re: Episode #723
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2019, 01:23:40 PM »
I'm curious what your qualifications and experience are in the domains of conservation, Africa (Namibia especially), and the intersection of the two?

How about you give me some details, instead of trying to dismiss my comment without adding to the discussion.

What's wrong with my premise "if it's only about money"?

I have made no judgements and have not dismissed anything. Cara noted her limited credentials in the domains I asked about. You propose several actions she said would not be effective. Your credentials and experience are relevant to my figuring out how much expertise backs up your proposals.
evidence trumps experience | performance over perfection | responsibility – authority = scapegoat | emotions motivate; data doesn't

Offline Friendly Angel

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Re: Episode #723
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2019, 02:08:50 PM »
I had to look up the pangolin - they really are cute.



And I think I could be convinced that conservation hunting has real benefits, but I don't think I could be convinced that the people who do it aren't assholes. 
Amend and resubmit.

Online 2397

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Re: Episode #723
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2019, 02:25:54 PM »
I have made no judgements and have not dismissed anything. Cara noted her limited credentials in the domains I asked about. You propose several actions she said would not be effective. Your credentials and experience are relevant to my figuring out how much expertise backs up your proposals.


I don't see this as something that depends on me doing deep research into the matter, but I wouldn't mind someone telling me why I'm wrong.

Adam says it's about money, qualifying it with that when it works well it works well. Cara says it's about money, and points out that tourism would have to happen at a larger scale (scaling up the negative aspects) to bring the same income, which I don't contest.

What I'm not seeing is what's inherent about trophy hunting that couldn't be accomplished by wealthy countries budgeting for conservation in countries that can't afford it on their own. Rather than relying on rich individuals treating the world as their playground to accomplish something, if we agree that we want to accomplish it, what's the barrier to funding it directly?

I'm not opposed to killing for conservation purposes. If an animal needs to be put down, then bring in a veterinarian or a trained hunter, whichever is more suitable. But unless there's a lack of people with the relevant skills, then sending money over should be enough to help. If here is a lack, then send someone over to stay there and help out for as long as they want to do that (within safe limits). Vets, biologists, rangers, anti-poaching units.

It's what we do in a lot of other circumstances. We don't sell tickets to rich CPR enthusiasts to deal with disease outbreaks in other countries. We send and pay for doctors and nurses.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Episode #723
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2019, 02:32:22 PM »
Instead we should actively reduce the amount of tourism to both reduce global emissions, and the damage tourists can do directly.

I think we should strive to make tourism emission-neutral, or at least reduce emissions.

To actively work to reduce tourism would significantly damage the income of the countries who receive tourists, many of whom are developing countries.
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Online 2397

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Re: Episode #723
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2019, 04:02:21 PM »
I think we should strive to make tourism emission-neutral, or at least reduce emissions.

To actively work to reduce tourism would significantly damage the income of the countries who receive tourists, many of whom are developing countries.

There is no way to be emissions neutral when you regularly travel thousands of kilometers. Not until we've already developed beyond using fossil fuels, because until then, the clean energy you use unnecessarily could've been used to reduce fossil fuel consumption instead.

If we switch out plane trips with train trips, that will significantly reduce emissions, but a large part of the reduction will be because people aren't going to use trains to go where they use planes now. Their trips will have to be shorter in distance to accomplish them in the same amount of time.

Or people will have to take longer holidays. They could spend more time in one place instead of taking several shorter duration trips.

Online 2397

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Re: Episode #723
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2019, 05:18:46 PM »
I hate ads in general. I'm not a fan of people acting as if an ad is not an ad. "Sponsored by" is a far superior way of doing it.

But for a change I'm going to say that I liked the ad that was released as a separate episode. That's a lot closer to the full disclosure approach I'd like to see. You know what it is before you play it (unless you autodownload, autoplay, etc.). And based on the annoying sound effects (on top of being aware of how he went nuts ringing that bell on StarTalk), I know that it's not worth bothering to check out that podcast. All the information I needed.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 05:33:46 PM by 2397 »

Offline Harry Black

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Re: Episode #723
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2019, 06:23:53 PM »
I think it would be good if rich countries took more responsibility for conservation. But until they do, trophy hunting seems like the least bad option to me.

We definitely need to find some way of reducing the number of planes in the sky. Perhaps something to make private jets a lot more expensive and inconvenient could help.

Offline BlackGriffen

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Re: Episode #723
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2019, 07:16:00 PM »
"Throughput is speed." Not quite. Throughput is a flux, so it's more analogous to power and current. Admittedly, speed and fluxes are both rates of change with respect to time, so they can be thought of as 'speed', in a way. There is an important distinction, though. Throughput doesn't care how fast the information is moving along the channel. There's an old saying in the hacker community, "Never underestimate the bandwidth [throughput] of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway." In that situation, you have a crap-ton of data moving along the highway at low speeds. Compare that to the internet, where you have relatively little data in transit at any one time moving near the speed of light.

In other words, the speed of the data is more closely tied to another concept latency (latency is the distance the data travels divided by the data's speed along the path).

Offline postwaste

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Re: Episode #723
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2019, 09:18:01 PM »
I thought pangolins were a type of jackal.

Offline brilligtove

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Re: Episode #723
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2019, 10:55:18 PM »
I have made no judgements and have not dismissed anything. Cara noted her limited credentials in the domains I asked about. You propose several actions she said would not be effective. Your credentials and experience are relevant to my figuring out how much expertise backs up your proposals.


I don't see this as something that depends on me doing deep research into the matter, but I wouldn't mind someone telling me why I'm wrong.

Ok. Cara touched on several reasons why this particular version of trophy hunting is practical and useful - not perfect or 'right'.

Compared to the other options that can be made to happen IRL, this version of conservation prevents harm from poaching, prevents harm from unmanaged ecosystems (which need to be managed because humans won't pack up and leave), prevents harm from large numbers of tourists, prevents harm from farmers and other citizens killing 'pest' animals, and so on. At the same time it brings in huge amounts of money that are dedicated to conservation.
evidence trumps experience | performance over perfection | responsibility – authority = scapegoat | emotions motivate; data doesn't

 

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