Author Topic: Episode #724  (Read 2075 times)

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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #724
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2019, 09:37:23 PM »
It's surprising to me to see a review as damning and harsh as Daniel's here on this forum. Like, why does he even listen to the podcast? Why is he on the SGU forums?

I listen to the show for the science and the skepticism. And I've supported it for a number of years, as a "member" and now as a "patron" for that reason. I get very annoyed when they veer off into what the world would be like if some sci-fi fantasy became reality. This is the opposite of skepticism and contains no science.

I can't tell Jay, Bob, and Evan apart. I hear a difference in the voices but I never remember which one is who. But I think Jay is the one who most often does this. The most egregious example that comes immediately to mind is when he speculated that self-driving car technology would enable hotel rooms to detach from the hotel, drive to the airport to pick you up and bring you back to the hotel. If he would step outside of his fantasy world for an instant he'd realize that robot drivers are not going to make hotel rooms mobile and street-legal. But he does this kind of thing a lot and it's as unscientific as homeopathy.
Daniel
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-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #724
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2019, 09:58:18 PM »
It's surprising to me to see a review as damning and harsh as Daniel's here on this forum. Like, why does he even listen to the podcast? Why is he on the SGU forums?

I listen to the show for the science and the skepticism. And I've supported it for a number of years, as a "member" and now as a "patron" for that reason. I get very annoyed when they veer off into what the world would be like if some sci-fi fantasy became reality. This is the opposite of skepticism and contains no science.

I can't tell Jay, Bob, and Evan apart. I hear a difference in the voices but I never remember which one is who. But I think Jay is the one who most often does this. The most egregious example that comes immediately to mind is when he speculated that self-driving car technology would enable hotel rooms to detach from the hotel, drive to the airport to pick you up and bring you back to the hotel. If he would step outside of his fantasy world for an instant he'd realize that robot drivers are not going to make hotel rooms mobile and street-legal. But he does this kind of thing a lot and it's as unscientific as homeopathy.

I hope you don't mind me saying this, but I think it's your Asperger's. You don't get the personal connections that neurotypical people have with the hosts. We like hearing about their science fiction aspirations, their imaginative flights of fantasy, the aspects of their personal lives that they choose to share, because they seem more like people and less like talking heads.

I apologise if my pointing this out has caused any offence - it was not my intent. I hope to help you to understand at an intellectual level at least why the aspects of the show that you don't like are so important to us.
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Online Alex Simmons

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Re: Episode #724
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2019, 06:44:09 AM »
But why would Earth life necessarily present a barrier to Martian life (if it exists) taking hold here? Earth life has formed defences against and competes with other Earth life. If it had not encountered Martian life before, Earth life may require time to adapt to the "threat" or "competition".

Because Earth life has already filled every niche it can, and is in constant competition with itself. There's no free space available, alien life would have to be able to displace what's already there and anything else that would spread there if what's there disappears.

Earth life being everywhere on Earth does not mean an alien life form would not or could not not pose a threat.

Invasive species abound.

Why would Martian life (if it existed) not also potentially present such a threat?

Offline brilligtove

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Re: Episode #724
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2019, 07:20:48 AM »
But why would Earth life necessarily present a barrier to Martian life (if it exists) taking hold here? Earth life has formed defences against and competes with other Earth life. If it had not encountered Martian life before, Earth life may require time to adapt to the "threat" or "competition".

Because Earth life has already filled every niche it can, and is in constant competition with itself. There's no free space available, alien life would have to be able to displace what's already there and anything else that would spread there if what's there disappears.

Earth life being everywhere on Earth does not mean an alien life form would not or could not not pose a threat.

Invasive species abound.

Why would Martian life (if it existed) not also potentially present such a threat?

It seems more likely to me that alien life would pose a threat by displacing life in existing niches, rather than finding an entirely new niche to occupy.
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Offline Lestopher

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Re: Episode #724
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2019, 03:49:45 PM »
The discussion of law around vaccinations got me wondering.  Is their civil liability for failing to vaccinate?  If someone doesn't vaccinate themselves (or their children) and they are a source of someone else contracting a disease, could they be legitimately sued?  Though difficult to prove, a few big cases like that might serve as a deterrent.

Offline stands2reason

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Re: Episode #724
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2019, 04:39:09 PM »
The discussion of law around vaccinations got me wondering.  Is their civil liability for failing to vaccinate?  If someone doesn't vaccinate themselves (or their children) and they are a source of someone else contracting a disease, could they be legitimately sued?  Though difficult to prove, a few big cases like that might serve as a deterrent.

The sheer amount of boime we share—bacteria aerosolized in breath and on our skin—means there would need to be some threshold. In this case, a vaccine would be considered a social obligation, just like a fire code, for a sufficiently infectious disease.


Offline 2397

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Re: Episode #724
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2019, 04:56:04 PM »
Earth life being everywhere on Earth does not mean an alien life form would not or could not not pose a threat.

Invasive species abound.

Why would Martian life (if it existed) not also potentially present such a threat?

Well, I was mainly talking about Earth life on Mars vs. Mars life on Earth. The variety of Earth life, Earth microorganisms, is probably far greater than any Mars life could be. So I think it's more likely that there is some Earth species that could survive on Mars. If it can survive the environment, the thin atmosphere, weak magnetic field, etc., then there might not be much life around to compete with at all. But Mars life would have to both survive our environment, and then compete with all the life that is adapted to living here.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 04:59:28 PM by 2397 »

Offline Friendly Angel

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Re: Episode #724
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2019, 06:10:04 PM »

I can't tell Jay, Bob, and Evan apart.

Jay is the one who says "yeah baby" whenever he gets SoF right...  I think.
Amend and resubmit.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #724
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2019, 10:58:50 PM »
It's surprising to me to see a review as damning and harsh as Daniel's here on this forum. Like, why does he even listen to the podcast? Why is he on the SGU forums?

I listen to the show for the science and the skepticism. And I've supported it for a number of years, as a "member" and now as a "patron" for that reason. I get very annoyed when they veer off into what the world would be like if some sci-fi fantasy became reality. This is the opposite of skepticism and contains no science.

I can't tell Jay, Bob, and Evan apart. I hear a difference in the voices but I never remember which one is who. But I think Jay is the one who most often does this. The most egregious example that comes immediately to mind is when he speculated that self-driving car technology would enable hotel rooms to detach from the hotel, drive to the airport to pick you up and bring you back to the hotel. If he would step outside of his fantasy world for an instant he'd realize that robot drivers are not going to make hotel rooms mobile and street-legal. But he does this kind of thing a lot and it's as unscientific as homeopathy.

I hope you don't mind me saying this, but I think it's your Asperger's. You don't get the personal connections that neurotypical people have with the hosts. We like hearing about their science fiction aspirations, their imaginative flights of fantasy, the aspects of their personal lives that they choose to share, because they seem more like people and less like talking heads.

I apologise if my pointing this out has caused any offence - it was not my intent. I hope to help you to understand at an intellectual level at least why the aspects of the show that you don't like are so important to us.

You are probably right. And no offense taken.
Daniel
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Online Alex Simmons

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Re: Episode #724
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2019, 01:37:24 AM »
Earth life being everywhere on Earth does not mean an alien life form would not or could not not pose a threat.

Invasive species abound.

Why would Martian life (if it existed) not also potentially present such a threat?

Well, I was mainly talking about Earth life on Mars vs. Mars life on Earth.
Which was my original point.

All the talk about contamination has been about it being a one way street, from Earth to Mars. I was pointing out there's been no discussion about the potential contamination in the other direction on mission return journeys, which would inevitably happen.

Offline Ah.hell

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Re: Episode #724
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2019, 09:04:16 AM »
Anyone else enjoy hearing a lawyer say that the way lawyers think and operate is totally different from critical thinking and skepticism?

Offline stands2reason

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Re: Episode #724
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2019, 11:16:48 AM »
Anyone else enjoy hearing a lawyer say that the way lawyers think and operate is totally different from critical thinking and skepticism?

Because their job is mostly based on motivated reasoning for the side they are representing. But even still, you would expect a good one, like a skilled debater, should be able to see things from the other side and anticipate their arguments. Since judges typically are/were lawyers, I'd be interested to hear about skepticism in the judiciary, since that is also relevant.

Offline CookieMustard

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Re: Episode #724
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2019, 11:54:25 AM »
It's a niche that didn't exist at all a little over 100 years ago. If there are other planets that have had plastic for hundreds of thousands of years, maybe their life could easily contaminate Earth, but that doesn't seem to be the case for Mars.

The remark about plastic was a sort of joke, not my main point. My point was that there is no way of knowing that every niche is filled. There is no list of available niches. As I said, we might not realize there was an available niche until it gets filled.
(By the way, a few years ago there was a report of some newly discovered bacteria (non-Martian) that ate plastic. After the initial buzz I never heard anything more. Has anyone heard updates on this.)

Offline lobsterbash

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Re: Episode #724
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2019, 11:58:38 AM »
Anyone else enjoy hearing a lawyer say that the way lawyers think and operate is totally different from critical thinking and skepticism?

Because their job is mostly based on motivated reasoning for the side they are representing. But even still, you would expect a good one, like a skilled debater, should be able to see things from the other side and anticipate their arguments. Since judges typically are/were lawyers, I'd be interested to hear about skepticism in the judiciary, since that is also relevant.

Agree with both quotes. I too find skeptical thinking in law interesting. It would seem that such thinking would really benefit higher courts. Supreme Court justices must be able to think through a great number of potential consequences to their decisions, and the ability to go against their own ideological bent to make sound decisions ought to be mandatory.

These days, there are only two qualifications for judicial appointment:
1. To not be so offensive that confirmation fails
2. To have demonstrated that they are conservatively inclined in world view, and willing to reason backward from that position

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #724
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2019, 03:51:57 PM »
A good lawyer has critical thinking skills, and uses them to formulate a case that will convince a judge or jury who lack critical thinking skills. The arguments the lawyer makes in court will be illogical and fallacious if the lawyer decides (using critical thinking skills) that these will best sway the judge and jury.

Earth life being everywhere on Earth does not mean an alien life form would not or could not not pose a threat.

Invasive species abound.

Why would Martian life (if it existed) not also potentially present such a threat?

Well, I was mainly talking about Earth life on Mars vs. Mars life on Earth.
Which was my original point.

All the talk about contamination has been about it being a one way street, from Earth to Mars. I was pointing out there's been no discussion about the potential contamination in the other direction on mission return journeys, which would inevitably happen.

People are not terribly worried about bringing living organisms back to Earth from Mars because they don't think there are likely to be any. It would be wonderful to find life there, but it's extremely unlikely.
Daniel
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"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck