Author Topic: A proposition: Close the Politics sub-forum  (Read 2340 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Skepmic

  • Off to a Start
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: A proposition: Close the Politics sub-forum
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2019, 10:21:16 AM »
It's not the politics subforum where our unpleasant conflict resides these days.

Is it the low carb diet thread? That thread is cray-cray!

Online John Albert

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5932
Re: A proposition: Close the Politics sub-forum
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2019, 12:13:16 PM »
Is there any example of a discussion in there that made someone change his or her mind?

I can't think of a specific example right off the dome, but I know for a fact that I've had my own opinion changed by a reasonable counterargument or fact correction. That's happened quite a few times on these forums, in Politics and elsewhere.   


I find it funny that several people in this thread argue that the Politics sub-forum is a sort-of harm reduction. "Yes it's bad, but at least then it can be contained there."

It's true though. Every important issue in the world relates to politics in some way. In any general discussion forum, the conversations tend to frequently drift into politics whether you like it or not.

For example, I help moderate a social media group dedicated entirely to entertainment and pop culture, and our group has a rule that all statements of "real-world" political opinions are strictly off-limits. We've decided on the "No Politics" rule because the group is not intended for the serious discussion of real events. As a fantasy/pop culture/entertainment group, we want to keep the tone light, breezy, quirky and escapist. (As far as we're concerned, it would be fine to debate the politics of The Galactic Empire, the Marvel Universe, Dr. Who or Game of Thrones, but for some reason those discussions never come up.)

But even though reading through and acquiescing to the rules is a requirement for admission into the group, about 80% of the moderation actions still involve that "No Politics" rule. As troublesome as it is, that rule is necessary because otherwise the group would be constantly dragged down with the inevitable racist and misogynist jokes and anti-"SJW" shitposts that come along with TV, movies and videogame fandoms.


If your contention is that we should only have skepticism directed content here, then this place will likely die.

I'm not sure what "skepticism directed content" means. Is it topics like psychics, UFOs, bigfoot, etc.? This forum would be very boring if it were restricted to only subjects like that.

Skepticism is a philosophical method which can (and I feel ought to) be applicable to any subject, including politics, culture, entertainment, etc.   


but we haven't had a real woobag here arguing with us in ages.  So it becomes just an echo chamber.

We've had a few, but we keep banning them. Usually they'll start spamming to promote their own website or book, or they accrue enough warnings to get banned.


In truth, arguing amongst ourselves sharpens our claws, as it were.  As long as we can keep it civil and respect our opponents we can increase our skills and/or change our minds.  Either is a good result.

Much agreed. It should be less about the particulars of what we believe, and more about the process of how we get to the point of belief.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 06:08:24 PM by John Albert »

Offline Harry Black

  • International Man of Mystery
  • Global Moderator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 15593
Re: A proposition: Close the Politics sub-forum
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2019, 12:41:34 PM »
Things Ive had my mind changed on in the politics threads:

-Trump impeachment.

- The value of aggressive approach in gaining civil rights for marginalised communities.

- The value of capitalism

-Trans identity and rights.

- The police.

- The value of military interventionism.

- Gender pay gap.

- Quite a few of the more nuanced feminist arguments.

- Israel/Palestine.

Im pretty sure there is more. I have basically become who I am over the past 6 years because of this forum and those discussions.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 4776
Re: A proposition: Close the Politics sub-forum
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2019, 01:09:16 PM »
Things Ive had my mind changed on in the politics threads:

-Trump impeachment.

- The value of aggressive approach in gaining civil rights for marginalised communities.

- The value of capitalism

-Trans identity and rights.

- The police.

- The value of military interventionism.

- Gender pay gap.

- Quite a few of the more nuanced feminist arguments.

- Israel/Palestine.

Im pretty sure there is more. I have basically become who I am over the past 6 years because of this forum and those discussions.

That's great to read!

I'd guess we have different opinions on some of these issues. Not trans rights, but issues like capitalism and the police. But that doesn't really matter, as the process is what matters. The outcome will then be whatever it gets to be.
"I appear as a skeptic, who believes that doubt is the great engine, the great fuel, of all inquiry, all discovery, and all innovation" - Christopher Hitchens

Offline Harry Black

  • International Man of Mystery
  • Global Moderator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 15593
Re: A proposition: Close the Politics sub-forum
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2019, 01:24:19 PM »
Things Ive had my mind changed on in the politics threads:

-Trump impeachment.

- The value of aggressive approach in gaining civil rights for marginalised communities.

- The value of capitalism

-Trans identity and rights.

- The police.

- The value of military interventionism.

- Gender pay gap.

- Quite a few of the more nuanced feminist arguments.

- Israel/Palestine.

Im pretty sure there is more. I have basically become who I am over the past 6 years because of this forum and those discussions.

That's great to read!

I'd guess we have different opinions on some of these issues. Not trans rights, but issues like capitalism and the police. But that doesn't really matter, as the process is what matters. The outcome will then be whatever it gets to be.
Agreed!

Offline Quetzalcoatl

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 4776
Re: A proposition: Close the Politics sub-forum
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2019, 02:09:16 PM »
Is there any example of a discussion in there that made someone change his or her mind?

I can't think of a specific example right off the dome, but I know for a fact that I've had my own opinion changed by a reasonable counterargument or fact correction. That's happened quite a few times on these forums, in Politics and elsewhere.

That's great. Maybe I'm biased, but in many cases it seems like the Politics sub-forum discussions degrade to shouting-contests. People signalling their tribal affiliations.

I find it funny that several people in this thread argue that the Politics sub-forum is a sort-of harm reduction. "Yes it's bad, but at least then it can be contained there."

It's true though. Every important issue in the world relates to politics in some way. In any general discussion forum, the conversations tend to frequently drift into politics now and then whether you like it or not.

Yes, sure.

For example, I help moderate a social media group dedicated entirely to entertainment and pop culture, and our group has a rule that all statements of "real-world" political opinions are strictly off-limits. We've decided on the "No Politics" rule because the group is not intended for the serious discussion of real events. As a fantasy/pop culture/entertainment group, we want to keep the tone light, breezy, quirky and escapist. (As far as we're concerned, it would be fine to debate the politics of The Galactic Empire, the Marvel Universe, Dr. Who or Game of Thrones, but for some reason those arguments never come up.)

I can see that.

But even though reading through and acquiescing to the rules is a requirement for admission into the group, about 80% of the moderation actions still involve that "No Politics" rule. As troublesome as it is, that rule is necessary because otherwise the group would be constantly dragged down with the inevitable racist and misogynist jokes and anti-"SJW" shitposts that come along with TV, movies and videogame fandoms.

I have seen the same on some blogs that I read. The writer making clear that his/her blog is not the place for political arguments, then having to edit out such content in the comments section. I guess it is hard for people to resist putting their politics into it.
"I appear as a skeptic, who believes that doubt is the great engine, the great fuel, of all inquiry, all discovery, and all innovation" - Christopher Hitchens

Offline Belgarath

  • Forum Sugar Daddy
  • Technical Administrator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 11809
Re: A proposition: Close the Politics sub-forum
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2019, 02:49:43 PM »
It's not the politics subforum where our unpleasant conflict resides these days.

Is it the low carb diet thread? That thread is cray-cray!

Yep.......
#non-belief denialist

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 9108
  • Cache rules everything around me.
Re: A proposition: Close the Politics sub-forum
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2019, 03:05:22 PM »
Sugar?  Sugar!?  Sugaaaar!
If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

Online John Albert

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5932
Re: A proposition: Close the Politics sub-forum
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2019, 03:45:11 PM »
Discussing politics might bother people, but in a "free" society I have more of a fear of people who avoid politics completely

It requires a certain amount of privilege to not care about politics.


Offline Keo_Mitchell

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 125
  • Revel In The Absurd
Re: A proposition: Close the Politics sub-forum
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2019, 09:18:52 PM »
I might not agree with 80% of the political opinion presented in the Politics Sub, I don't agree with closing it.  The fact you need to be logged in and have to scroll down to seek it out is a good enough "filter" for folks who aren't into the idea of politics; back to lurking.
The key to happiness is to embrace the absurd.

Users Fanboy List: gmalivuk XXXXX, CarbShark XX, PANTS! XXXX <3

Offline Quetzalcoatl

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 4776
Re: A proposition: Close the Politics sub-forum
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2019, 10:36:32 AM »
I might not agree with 80% of the political opinion presented in the Politics Sub

I don't think I know anyone (or very, very few persons) who would agree with most of the views there. Some of the views that are mainstream on this forum are rather extreme where I live.

Calling anyone who disagrees with you "racist" when clearly that person is not racist is also not considered in good taste where I live.

I don't agree with closing it.  The fact you need to be logged in and have to scroll down to seek it out is a good enough "filter" for folks who aren't into the idea of politics; back to lurking.

That's a fair opinion. Again, it is amusing how many seem to view that sub-forum as harm reduction.
"I appear as a skeptic, who believes that doubt is the great engine, the great fuel, of all inquiry, all discovery, and all innovation" - Christopher Hitchens

Offline Quetzalcoatl

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 4776
Re: A proposition: Close the Politics sub-forum
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2019, 10:44:27 AM »
Further, there seems to be correlation between how much someone complains about the Politics board, and how poorly they argue in it.

Is there? Am I not the first one trying this proposition?

The short answer is that everything that makes the Politics board a problem on this site is already against the rules. However, it is not so much that moderators are not doing their job in the Politics board, but also that certain moderators break the rules in the Politics board and contribute to the kind of discourse that supposedly makes the Politics board a problem.

Yes, there is certainly an element of popularity in the moderation.
"I appear as a skeptic, who believes that doubt is the great engine, the great fuel, of all inquiry, all discovery, and all innovation" - Christopher Hitchens

Online John Albert

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5932
Re: A proposition: Close the Politics sub-forum
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2019, 11:07:34 AM »
Calling anyone who disagrees with you "racist" when clearly that person is not racist is also not considered in good taste where I live.

It's considered poor manners in most circles in the US.


That's a fair opinion. Again, it is amusing how many seem to view that sub-forum as harm reduction.

It's not so much "harm reduction," as proper classification.

Politics is going to be discussed one way or another, and since this forum is not generally dedicated to political discussions, it makes sense to have a catch-all Politics subforum to prevent overspill into the other topics.

Offline Captain Video

  • Superhero of the Silver Screen
  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3041
Re: A proposition: Close the Politics sub-forum
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2019, 11:15:57 AM »
Further, there seems to be correlation between how much someone complains about the Politics board, and how poorly they argue in it.

Is there? Am I not the first one trying this proposition?

The short answer is that everything that makes the Politics board a problem on this site is already against the rules. However, it is not so much that moderators are not doing their job in the Politics board, but also that certain moderators break the rules in the Politics board and contribute to the kind of discourse that supposedly makes the Politics board a problem.

Yes, there is certainly an element of popularity in the moderation.

I brought up closing politics a few years ago. My problem is that too many people here push their personal ideologies as science fact.  As well as "ganging up on people" who don't fall in line with everyone else. If you have one right minded opinion you will be ostracized as a nazi sympathizer or called one directly. 

But people are right, most of what is horrible about the political threads has now spilled into general and science, there is not much point in shutting it down. 

 I have an even bigger problem with mods with strong opinions who then post moderator messages in the same threads against the others.  I think its disgusting but agree I have no say in the situation, its their forum not mine.

“Don't explain computers to laymen. Simpler to explain sex to a virgin.”
― Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

Offline Harry Black

  • International Man of Mystery
  • Global Moderator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 15593
Re: A proposition: Close the Politics sub-forum
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2019, 11:54:16 AM »
If moderators were to not participate in threads, do you think it would stop us from having opinions and change how we moderate?
We review and consider ALL post reports and rule breaches but obviously we are a group of humans trying to do our best.
I hear from one side that we are not doing enough to counter certain talking points and trolling and from the other side that we are 'ruling' with ideology and delight in victimising certain users.

But sure. Using my time to try and help keep a communuty alive and supported, while still participating is 'disgusting'.

 

personate-rain