Author Topic: Morality of "Deep Fakes" in pornos  (Read 947 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline stands2reason

  • Empiricist, Positivist, Militant Agnostic
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 10470
Re: Morality of "Deep Fakes" in pornos
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2019, 04:56:35 PM »
So let me give this a go-
The subject finding out would cause distress.

Creating a physical or digital thing that is evidence of your thoughts/actions reduces the chances of the subject or someone else seeing this representation from zero (if it remains in your brain) to greater than zero.

This introduces the possibility of harm through mental anguish or a sense of violation on the part of the subject or of others using their likeness in a way they did not consent to.
This is not therefore a moral action.

According to that logic, political cartoons and other mocking of public figures is immoral, because it causes them anguish. Already, there is a distinction in the law for this: You can make a political cartoon of a politician under a guillotine, but that wouldn't be acceptable if you did to a neighbor or someone not notable.

You are allowed to use public figures' likenesses in certain ways without their consent. You can argue that deep-faking Trump's face into a video (maybe a video of Hitler giving a speech or something, not necessarily porn), serves as political speech just like a comic.

This is all talking about media that is intentionally created for public release.

As for the point that something is immoral because it would hurt them if they found out: I think this is a logical blind spot because of the subject of porn. Imagine that you re writing a novel, and have decided to use someone you know as inspiration for a character (very common as I understand it). Well, writing that book is an immoral act, because it now has the possibility of hurting their feelings if they find out. Let's say it's an erotic novel: now we have the element that someone's likeness is being used specifically for the purposes of sexuality, without their consent.

Offline Eternally Learning

  • Master Mr. a.k.a. Methodical Loaf
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 9079
  • Break a leg, badger!
    • Get Past The 140 Character Limit!
Re: Morality of "Deep Fakes" in pornos
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2019, 05:04:08 PM »
I think those things are different because IMO, they qualify as speech or at bare minimum, parody.  I don't see how deep faked porn possibly could fit either of those in a general sense, unless you made an explicit, deep-faked video as a statement of some sort.  At any rate, if the intent is simply to titillate then I don't think a free speech argument makes sense, but if it's to encourage thought and/express an idea then it's arguably OK.

Offline stands2reason

  • Empiricist, Positivist, Militant Agnostic
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 10470
Re: Morality of "Deep Fakes" in pornos
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2019, 05:27:14 PM »
I don't see how deep faked porn possibly could fit either of those in a general sense, unless you made an explicit, deep-faked video as a statement of some sort.

Basically, you could take the face of the president of the US, and any other president / prime minister of a US ally, deep-fake them into a porn video, and that qualifies: someone is getting "fucked" by the US, which is actual political metaphor. I have seen memes/comics to that effect sometimes.

I think those things are different because IMO, they qualify as speech or at bare minimum, parody.  I don't see how deep faked porn possibly could fit either of those in a general sense, unless you made an explicit, deep-faked video as a statement of some sort.  At any rate, if the intent is simply to titillate then I don't think a free speech argument makes sense, but if it's to encourage thought and/express an idea then it's arguably OK.

If this technology existed a century ago, making a deep-fake video of someone hanging out with [insert minority], engaging in homo-eroticism, or even just using swear language, might be just as offensive to them as we currently consider sexualizing someone's image without their consent.

I understand the feeling, but saying, it's OK to use someone's imagine in a way they don't like if it's anything other than porn, doesn't sound right.

Again, I think it's a logical blind spot. Try to think of the most offensive way you could use someone's image that not erotic/porn (e.g. depicting them being executed, for example). Is it a special case because of sexuality, or is there something more fundamental? Is a deep fake video of a black person being lynched more offensive than deep-fake porn? What if they are a sarcastically racist Republican politician?

Offline Eternally Learning

  • Master Mr. a.k.a. Methodical Loaf
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 9079
  • Break a leg, badger!
    • Get Past The 140 Character Limit!
Re: Morality of "Deep Fakes" in pornos
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2019, 06:13:35 PM »
I think in that case, it comes down to the speech the deep fake is being used to convey and not the method itself.  It'd be no different than hanging someone in effigy for instance.  In either case, I don't see why the non-consensual use of another's image (realistic-looking or not) would be the deciding factor on its relative morality.  If you're using it to oppress dis-empowered groups then any method you'd use to do the same would be equally as wrong.  Just like how free speech is considered a virtue but not a free pass to avoid the consequences of that speech. 

Offline brilligtove

  • Too Much Spare Time
  • ********
  • Posts: 7280
  • Ignorance can be cured. Stupidity, you deal with.
Re: Morality of "Deep Fakes" in pornos
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2019, 07:22:50 PM »
How is a deep fake I make for personal use morally different from slash fic I write for personal use?

Please note this has been carefully crafted as a "compare and contrast" question, and does not include moral assertions about either deep fakes or slash fic.
evidence trumps experience | performance over perfection | responsibility – authority = scapegoat | emotions motivate; data doesn't

Offline Eternally Learning

  • Master Mr. a.k.a. Methodical Loaf
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 9079
  • Break a leg, badger!
    • Get Past The 140 Character Limit!
Re: Morality of "Deep Fakes" in pornos
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2019, 09:20:55 PM »
How is a deep fake I make for personal use morally different from slash fic I write for personal use?

Please note this has been carefully crafted as a "compare and contrast" question, and does not include moral assertions about either deep fakes or slash fic.

I'm honestly not very familiar with slash fiction as it's never appealed to me, but I imagine there's a degree of separation between fantasizing about a fictional character and fantasizing about the actor that plays them.  In written form at least, it's a tad ambiguous I guess, but if we're talking illustrations then I'd guess there isn't much difference between that and slash fic.  Do people really read and write slash fic for sexual gratification though?  I've always seen it as something people do, almost in a joking manner; kind of akin to dark humor or something. 

I guess this does bring up another point though; if something can be considered art, does it negate a lot of the concerns raised in this thread?  For instance, if I spend 6 months painting a detailed portrait of a nude Stephen Frye without his consent, do I have the legal right to sell it to someone?  Have I done something morally wrong even if I do, if Frye is offended by its mere existence?  If there's no message in the painting, intended or inferred, does it qualify as speech?  Does it matter more, less, or the same if it was painted with the intent of using for sexual gratification rather than artistic expression?  I don't know, maybe that's taking us in too many directions, but it's just what's going through my head right now.

Offline brilligtove

  • Too Much Spare Time
  • ********
  • Posts: 7280
  • Ignorance can be cured. Stupidity, you deal with.
Re: Morality of "Deep Fakes" in pornos
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2019, 07:01:17 AM »
Note that I asked about 'personal use' and not 'rubbing one out'. That's where the mind goes, of course. I'd like to hear a clear argument for why sex/not sex is an important distinction in this sort of decision. If I'm correctly interpreting this thread (and the media discussions on this kind of subject) there are strong arguments against causing undue harm with a given form of media - but there is also a conflation of sex and harm in the discussions of images (ranging from Sears catalogues to hentai to deep fakes).
evidence trumps experience | performance over perfection | responsibility – authority = scapegoat | emotions motivate; data doesn't

Offline Harry Black

  • International Man of Mystery
  • Global Moderator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 15844
Re: Morality of "Deep Fakes" in pornos
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2019, 07:44:17 AM »
I think slash fic is pretty much the same as a deep fake.
If you are writing erotic stories about a non famous person then it falls under the same ethical category.
Famous people need to have a bit more of an expectation of how they will be viewed in the public eye but theres still the fact that we dont know how they would feel about this thing being created about them. If they strongly object or would be likely to ask you not to then you probably shouldnt.
Obviously this is distinct from satire or art that challenges power. I would not have thought I have to say that.

I guess you could make individual cases for exceptions and your argument may change the ethical responsibility. I suspect most of them would come down to feeling a sense of ownership over the persons sexuality though.

Online arthwollipot

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 8759
  • Observer of Phenomena
Re: Morality of "Deep Fakes" in pornos
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2019, 08:34:44 PM »
I think slash fic is pretty much the same as a deep fake.
If you are writing erotic stories about a non famous person then it falls under the same ethical category.
Famous people need to have a bit more of an expectation of how they will be viewed in the public eye but theres still the fact that we dont know how they would feel about this thing being created about them. If they strongly object or would be likely to ask you not to then you probably shouldnt.
Obviously this is distinct from satire or art that challenges power. I would not have thought I have to say that.

I guess you could make individual cases for exceptions and your argument may change the ethical responsibility. I suspect most of them would come down to feeling a sense of ownership over the persons sexuality though.

I think there's a meaningful distinction to be made between writing Harry Potter slash Hermione Granger fic, and writing Daniel Radcliffe slash Emma Watson fic. An actor is not their character.
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him.
Orbem consistite ut escendam!

Offline Harry Black

  • International Man of Mystery
  • Global Moderator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 15844
Re: Morality of "Deep Fakes" in pornos
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2019, 03:59:48 AM »
Right. I was assuming slash fic about a real person and one who may not even be a public figure.

Offline The Latinist

  • Cyber Greasemonkey
  • Technical Administrator
  • Too Much Spare Time
  • *****
  • Posts: 7634
Re: Morality of "Deep Fakes" in pornos
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2019, 12:04:39 AM »
I think there are some terminology issues here with respect to fanfic. In particular, people seem to be conflating slash and RPF. Slash features (usually non-canonical) same-sex relationships; RPF (Real People Fiction or Real Person Fiction) features real people rather than fictional characters.  A story may be both slash and RPF, but the two genres are not synonymous.

Personally, I think RPF is unethical as well.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline brilligtove

  • Too Much Spare Time
  • ********
  • Posts: 7280
  • Ignorance can be cured. Stupidity, you deal with.
Re: Morality of "Deep Fakes" in pornos
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2019, 09:16:40 AM »
I think there are some terminology issues here with respect to fanfic. In particular, people seem to be conflating slash and RPF. Slash features (usually non-canonical) same-sex relationships; RPF (Real People Fiction or Real Person Fiction) features real people rather than fictional characters.  A story may be both slash and RPF, but the two genres are not synonymous.

Personally, I think RPF is unethical as well.

Thank you for clarifying. I was not aware of the distinction.
evidence trumps experience | performance over perfection | responsibility – authority = scapegoat | emotions motivate; data doesn't