Author Topic: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.  (Read 2657 times)

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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2019, 06:41:01 PM »
From that FDA document you posted:

Quote
Manufacturing/processing means making food from one or more ingredients, or synthesizing, preparing, treating, modifying or manipulating food, including food crops or ingredients. Examples of manufacturing/processing activities include: Baking, boiling, bottling, canning, cooking, cooling, cutting, distilling, drying/dehydrating raw agricultural commodities to create a distinct commodity (such as drying/dehydrating grapes to produce raisins), evaporating, eviscerating, extracting juice, formulating, freezing, grinding, homogenizing, irradiating, labeling, milling, mixing, packaging (including modified atmosphere packaging), pasteurizing, peeling, rendering, treating to manipulate ripening, trimming, washing, or waxing. For farms and farm mixed-type facilities, manufacturing/processing does not include activities that are part of harvesting, packing, or holding.
https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=1.227

So it pretty much verifies exactly what I said about "processed food." Pretty much anything you do to food in order to prepare it for eating, is some form of processing.

I ignored your modifier "highly processed food" because I don't care. It's no more precise than any other definition I've seen. Moreover it's just your own opinion, and you have no training in food science so I see no reason to take your opinion as any better informed than any other diet evangelist.

No that doesn't verify what you said. If a manufacturer slices a tomato that is processing. If you slice a tomato that is not processing. If a manufacture puts a food in their mouth then sells it that's probably a crime. If you put food in your mouth and eat it, that's not processing.

If you don't care, why do you even bother.

And, no highly processed and refined are not terms I made up they are distinctions made in the literature and are meaningful.

But even if they're not distinctions, very little processed food actually resembles the whole foods it's made from.

So either way, you're muddling the definitions either to intentionally confuse the discussion or because you just don't know what you're talking about or, mostly likely, both.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

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Online Harry Black

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2019, 06:45:57 PM »
So to get back to the OP: What is it about food that makes people feel the need to constantly go to bat for their preferred diet?

Offline John Albert

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2019, 06:53:35 PM »
If a manufacturer slices a tomato that is processing. If you slice a tomato that is not processing.

That's not what the document says. This is what it says:

                         
Quote
Manufacturing/processing means making food from one or more ingredients, or synthesizing, preparing, treating, modifying or manipulating food, including food crops or ingredients. Examples of manufacturing/processing activities include: Baking, boiling, bottling, canning, cooking, cooling, cutting, distilling, drying/dehydrating raw agricultural commodities to create a distinct commodity (such as drying/dehydrating grapes to produce raisins), evaporating, eviscerating, extracting juice, formulating, freezing, grinding, homogenizing, irradiating, labeling, milling, mixing, packaging (including modified atmosphere packaging), pasteurizing, peeling, rendering, treating to manipulate ripening, trimming, washing, or waxing. For farms and farm mixed-type facilities, manufacturing/processing does not include activities that are part of harvesting, packing, or holding.
https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=1.227

I said that cutting a tomato is processing, you said cutting a tomato is not processing. And "cutting" is listed right there in the FDA definition as one of the activities that qualify as "processing."

My whole point is that "processing" is anything done to food to prepare it for eating. It doesn't matter whether a "manufacturer" cuts the tomato or I cut the tomato myself. The result is exactly the same. Likewise, if a manufacturer dumps 5 pounds of salt into 100 gallons of corned beef hash in a giant mixer, or I put 1½ teaspoons of salt into a quart of homemade corned beef hash in my KitchenAid, the same proportion of salt has been added. The commercial corned beef hash hasn't been rendered toxic just because it's been prepared on a larger scale.

The idea that "processed food" is inherently bad is a canard of the food woo industry. All processes aren't the same. Some processes may be beneficial to the healthfulness of the food, some may be adverse to the healthfulness of the food, and some are practically irrelevant. Often it's a matter of quantity consumed; potato chips for example are usually fine in moderation but it's unhealthy to eat too much of them.

(Though, as amysrevenge pointed out, some ready-made foods like potato chips are easy to overeat because big bags of them are available in snackable form. Plus they're specially formulated to stimulate our natural craving for salt.)


If you don't care, why do you even bother.

I'm not bothering anymore. This is shaping up into another one of your mind-numbingly pedantic pissing contests, and I'm not playing that game.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 08:43:33 PM by John Albert »

Offline John Albert

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2019, 07:07:09 PM »
So to get back to the OP: What is it about food that makes people feel the need to constantly go to bat for their preferred diet?

I think it has a lot to do with the marketing of information, food products, and supplements with little regard whether they're beneficial or harmful to consumers.

Our popular culture has conditioned us to aspire to youth, maximum health, and certain types of body images, and diet is often promoted as a the primary component (in some cases the only component) of a healthy lifestyle. Ever since we were kids, we've been taught to obsess over food with slogans like "You are what you eat." Some people even take that message to such extremes that they'll even eschew medical care in favor of treating serious illnesses by merely changing their diet. And because so many people believe that a tightly-controlled diet is the single most important factor in our health, there's enormous market potential in promoting fad diets.   

There are also economic factors. Food is so abundant, diverse, and inexpensive in the Western world, that has made diet an easily controllable lifestyle factor. And because most humans eat several meals a day, there's enormous profit to be made by habituating people to a given manufacturer's line of food products.

Which is not to say that diet is not important; of course it certainly is. And while there's a lot of money to be made by promoting fad diets and "health" foods, there's even more profits in cheap, salty/sweet/fatty, ready to eat, but habit-forming "junk" foods that have become a major dietary staple of unhealthy lifestyles.

So to some extent I think the marketing of food woo is probably also a consequence of consumer backlash against the marketing of junk food.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 06:54:59 PM by John Albert »

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2019, 09:05:56 PM »
So to get back to the OP: What is it about food that makes people feel the need to constantly go to bat for their preferred diet?

I would suppose it's the intimacy of putting stuff inside of ourselves. Putting the wrong thing inside of you can kill you. It's a small step for the scientifically illiterate who do not understand the testing food ingredients are put through to question whether food ingredients are safe. And in fact, before the FDA many foods were not safe. The kinds of arguments made by the promoters of food woo sound plausible, and then combined with a "better safe than sorry" attitude, it can be easy to fall into the mind-set that big faceless corporations are selling us unsafe foods because it's profitable. Dihydrogen monoxide sounds really scary if you don't know better. AND THEY'RE PUTTING IT IN OUR FOOD!!!
Daniel
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2019, 09:29:26 PM »
If a manufacturer slices a tomato that is processing. If you slice a tomato that is not processing.

That's not what the document says. This is what it says:

                         
Quote
Manufacturing/processing means making food from one or more ingredients, or synthesizing, preparing, treating, modifying or manipulating food, including food crops or ingredients. Examples of manufacturing/processing activities include: Baking, boiling, bottling, canning, cooking, cooling, cutting, distilling, drying/dehydrating raw agricultural commodities to create a distinct commodity (such as drying/dehydrating grapes to produce raisins), evaporating, eviscerating, extracting juice, formulating, freezing, grinding, homogenizing, irradiating, labeling, milling, mixing, packaging (including modified atmosphere packaging), pasteurizing, peeling, rendering, treating to manipulate ripening, trimming, washing, or waxing. For farms and farm mixed-type facilities, manufacturing/processing does not include activities that are part of harvesting, packing, or holding.
https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=1.227

I said that cutting a tomato is processing, you said cutting a tomato is not processing. And "cutting" is listed right there in the FDA definition as one of the activities that qualify as "processing."

My whole point is that "processing" is anything done to food to prepare it for eating. It doesn't matter whether a "manufacturer" cuts the tomato or I cut the tomato myself. The result is exactly the same. Likewise, if a manufacturer dumps 5 pounds of salt into 100 gallons of corned beef hash in a giant mixer, or I put 1½ teaspoons of salt into a quart of homemade corned beef hash in my KitchenAid, the same proportion of salt has been added. The commercial corned beef hash hasn't been rendered toxic just because it's been prepared on a larger scale.

The idea that "processed food" is inherently bad is a canard of the food woo industry. All processes aren't the same. Some processes may be beneficial to the healthfulness of the food, some may be adverse to the healthfulness of the food, and some are practically irrelevant. Often it's a matter of quantity consumed; potato chips for example are usually fine in moderation but it's unhealthy to eat too much of them.

(Though, as amysrevenge pointed out, some ready-made foods like potato chips are easy to overeat because big bags of them are available in snackable form. Plus they're specially formulated to stimulate our natural craving for salt.)


If you don't care, why do you even bother.

I'm not bothering anymore. This is shaping up into another one of your mind-numbingly pedantic pissing contests, and I'm not playing that game.

Imagine someone trying to get facts right on a skeptical web forum.


So we're trying to have an informed discussion about diet and foods and we're discussing processed foods, and you declare that the term is too vague (even though it's definition is very clear) and further decide that if you put food in your mouth or if you cut a tomato you're making it fit the FDA's definition of processed food, and now your narrow and deliberately misleading definition of processed food is what we're supposed to agree on, because you can't handle google and can't follow simple links to things like definitions of highlighted terms.

And when you're called on it you can't be bothered with pedantry.

Just to be clear, when proponents of clean eating discuss processed food, they're not using your minimalist and misleading definition. They're not saying don't eat food you cut in your kitchen or put in your mouth.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline stands2reason

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2019, 10:07:38 PM »
We need one of those psych studies where you test how "clean" someone feels about their eating when primed with handwashing.

Level of processing doesn't inherently tell you anything. It is merely correlated with certain kinds of adjunct like added sugar. What about cases where food is fortified with nutrients? Vitamin C is used as a preservative.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2019, 02:29:54 AM »
We need one of those psych studies where you test how "clean" someone feels about their eating when primed with handwashing.

Level of processing doesn't inherently tell you anything. It is merely correlated with certain kinds of adjunct like added sugar. What about cases where food is fortified with nutrients? Vitamin C is used as a preservative.

No. Processed food can de minimally processed where it is nearly the same as the whole food and there is very little distinction.

It can also be highly processed, like flour where the fiber is completely separated making glucose index and glucose load much higher.

Highly processed food is the most common. Minimally processed food is the least common.

Rather than expect shoppers and dieters to try to navigate the system using minimal and often intentionally deceptive food labels, the advice is to avoid highly processed food.

Sure there may be a small number of foods that are otherwise “clean” but for the most part the foods that are avoided are the least “clean.”

Tell me what’s wrong with the advice to eat fresh fruits, vegetables and meat ?


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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

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Offline lonely moa

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2019, 05:22:43 AM »

Tell me what’s wrong with the advice to eat fresh fruits, vegetables and meat ?

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Ummm, one might have cook and clean up afterwards?  Same you might have to talk to your spouse whilst eating?  Dog forbid.
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Offline John Albert

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2019, 09:30:31 AM »
Tell me what’s wrong with the advice to eat fresh fruits, vegetables and meat ?

Nobody said there's anything wrong with that.


you declare that the term is too vague (even though it's definition is very clear) and further decide that if you put food in your mouth or if you cut a tomato you're making it fit the FDA's definition of processed food

I said the "clean eating" movement's definition of "processed food" is vague, not the FDA's definition. And I never said that if you put food in your mouth or cut a tomato you're "making it fit" the FDA's definition of processed food.

What I said was, there's no nutritional difference between a tomato sliced at home and one sliced in a commercial food factory. They're both "processed" the same. The factory-sliced tomato is not rendered "bad" or "unhealthy" simply because it was cut in a factory instead of somebody's house.


Just to be clear, when proponents of clean eating discuss processed food, they're not using your minimalist and misleading definition. They're not saying don't eat food you cut in your kitchen or put in your mouth.

The definition of "processed food" that I'm using is the very same one I quoted from that FDA document you posted. It presents a comprehensive list of food preparation, cooking, preservation, and storage techniques, most of which are commonly performed at home as well as in commercial food factories.


Imagine someone trying to get facts right on a skeptical web forum.

That someone is not you.

As for "clean eating," that is an arbitrary, bullshit concept.

You really ought to read the article by Dr. Novella that I posted on the previous page.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 06:57:17 PM by John Albert »

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2019, 12:01:25 PM »
Tell me what’s wrong with the advice to eat fresh fruits, vegetables and meat ?

Nobody said there's anything wrong with that.


you declare that the term is too vague (even though it's definition is very clear) and further decide that if you put food in your mouth or if you cut a tomato you're making it fit the FDA's definition of processed food

I said the "clean eating" movement's definition of "processed food" is vague, not the FDA's definition. And I never said that if you put food in your mouth or cut a tomato you're making it fit the FDA's definition of processed food.

What I said was, there's no nutritional difference between a tomato sliced at home and one sliced in a commercial food factory. They're both "processed" the same. The factory-sliced tomato is not rendered "bad" or "unhealthy" simply because it was cut in a factory instead of somebody's house.


No what you are doing is you're taking a very common term that's well understood and very broad (processed food) and trying to make it seem vague and unclear by applying a literal definition, and then using that to make the Clean Food advocate's position seem weaker and easier to ridicule.

And you are failing. If you are genuinely confused about what they're referring to as Processed Food, you're the only one.

Quote

Just to be clear, when proponents of clean eating discuss processed food, they're not using your minimalist and misleading definition. They're not saying don't eat food you cut in your kitchen or put in your mouth.

The definition of "processed food" that I'm using is the very same one I quoted from that FDA document you posted. It presents a comprehensive list of food preparation, cooking, preservation, and storage techniques, most of which are commonly performed at home as well as in commercial food factories.

No it's not. You were clearly saying if you cut a tomato or put food in your mouth that's processing. It's not if you do it, it is if it's done prior to purchase.

Quote
As for "clean eating," that is an arbitrary, bullshit concept.


Well, if you think so, then try arguing against their actual position instead of making up new meanings and using literal definitions for very common and well understood concepts.

The term "processed food" is very clear, broad, precise and anything but vague.

By doing so you're not arguing in good faith and eroding your credibility on the topic.

Quote
You really ought to read the article by Dr. Novella that I posted on the previous page.

I have, when it came out and again now.

He makes a similar rhetorical error with his discussion of chemicals.

The food babe and clean eaters are referring to added chemicals, substances that are added to foods and on the ingredient lists, not the chemicals in the foods themselves.

And again, if that's bullshit, if it's nonsense, then it would be better to argue against their actual position than to ridicule them based on a straw man argument.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline superdave

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2019, 12:38:39 PM »
TO answer the question in the title, it's because there is no "best" diet.  A wide variety of diets work.  So there is a lot of arguing past each other.
I disavow anyone in the movement involved in any illegal,unethical, sexist, or racist behavior. However, I don't have the energy or time to investigate each person and case, and a lack of individual disavowals for each incident should not be construed as condoning such behavior.

Online Harry Black

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2019, 01:02:54 PM »
TO answer the question in the title, it's because there is no "best" diet.  A wide variety of diets work.  So there is a lot of arguing past each other.
I think theres a few things everyone has experience with:
The education system
Eating/cooking
Parent/child relationships
Driving

These are all things that are almost universal and things where everyone feels they have expertise, so it leads to those with differing opinions refusing to back down because each feels like an expert. Argue about something long enough and it can become entrenched and unquestioned.

There are other less universal things that become similar for those they are relevant to:
Exercise
Sports team management
Whatever job speciality one might have.

I think people like feeling authorative and these 'easy wins' are good for self esteem.
Some of us clearly need that more than others though I guess.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2019, 02:33:04 PM »
TO answer the question in the title, it's because there is no "best" diet.  A wide variety of diets work.  So there is a lot of arguing past each other.


But there are diets that are clearly unhealthy for pretty much everyone, and one of the worst happens to be the standard American and modern western diet based on the USDA dietary guidelines.


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Offline John Albert

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2019, 04:20:32 PM »
what you are doing is you're taking a very common term that's well understood

The term "processed food" is actually quite badly misunderstood. And that misunderstanding is a consequence of all the food woo promoted by profit-motivated scaremongers and fad diet hucksters.


If you are genuinely confused about what they're referring to as Processed Food, you're the only one.

I'm not the one who's confused about the definition of "processed food." It was me who posted the actual text of the FDA definition. You apparently didn't even bother to read it.

Processed food is not inherently a bad thing. It's mostly just the same preparation, cooking, preservation and storage techniques that regular people practice in their own kitchens.

But the "clean eating" movement promotes simpleminded propaganda that "processed food" is bad, without acknowledging what the term actually means.


You were clearly saying if you cut a tomato or put food in your mouth that's processing.

Cutting food is processing, according to the FDA definition. I never said that putting food in your mouth is processing. 


The food babe and clean eaters are referring to added chemicals, substances that are added to foods and on the ingredient lists, not the chemicals in the foods themselves.

And again, if that's bullshit, if it's nonsense, then it would be better to argue against their actual position than to ridicule them based on a straw man argument.

You're apparently so hung up on playing the Gotcha Game that you're totally missing my point.

If The Food Babe is equating "processed food" with adding "chemicals," that's a massive overgeneralization about the definition of "processed food," as well as an overgeneralization about the "chemicals" used in food preparation.

(And why am I not surprised that you're defending the ill-informed ravings of "The Food Babe"?)

Which, come to think of it, is another reason why is food is a blind spot: unqualified dilettantes who assume that they're experts.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 05:17:27 PM by John Albert »

 

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