Author Topic: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.  (Read 2658 times)

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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2019, 06:18:47 PM »
what you are doing is you're taking a very common term that's well understood

The term "processed food" is actually quite badly misunderstood.

Obviously it's quite badly misunderstood by you.


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And that misunderstanding is a consequence of all the food woo promoted by profit-motivated scaremongers and fad diet hucksters.

There is an element of that, but they are not redefining "processed food" as you are. Their definition is fully covered by the FDAs. (which is not at all vague. It's broad, be very clear. Any vagueness is on you).

I agree they may be misrepresenting in general the health properties of processed food. But even some of then agree with that. They say they maybe throwing a little baby out with the bath water, but that's the cautionary approach, since the food system doesn't give people a clear idea as to how much of what chemicals have been added, and what kind of processing has been done. So, they say, it's better to avoid them entirely and eat what we know is healthy (whole, real foods).


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If you are genuinely confused about what they're referring to as Processed Food, you're the only one.

I'm not the one who's confused about the definition of "processed food." It was me who posted the actual text of the FDA definition. You apparently didn't even bother to read it.

That's rich, it was you who complained you couldn't find the definition. I found it and posted it and you quoted the part of it that you seemed to think agrees with you.
 
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But the "clean eating" movement promotes simpleminded propaganda that "processed food" is bad, without acknowledging what the term actually means.

What they are promoting is the idea that whole foods are healthy. Meats, fruits and vegetables, mostly.

You were clearly saying if you cut a tomato or put food in your mouth that's processing.

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Cutting food is processing, according to the FDA definition. I never said that putting food in your mouth is processing. 
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Prepping is processing. Cooking is processing. Seasoning is processing. Take a knife to a tomato and you have "processed food."

Some food processing is actually beneficial because it enables our digestive system to more efficiently extract nutrients. The entryway of our own alimentary canal contains a natural food processor called our "mouth."

...

No. and you did.

Cutting food is cutting food. You don't suddenly make "processed food" if you cut a tomato in your kitchen.

If a manufacturer does that it meets the definition of "Food Processing" it you do it, it's preparation.

And clearly your meaning was that food put in your mouth is being processed. Or have you made up more definitions for commonly understood words?

The food babe and clean eaters are referring to added chemicals, substances that are added to foods and on the ingredient lists, not the chemicals in the foods themselves.

And again, if that's bullshit, if it's nonsense, then it would be better to argue against their actual position than to ridicule them based on a straw man argument.

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You're apparently so hung up on playing the Gotcha Game that you're totally missing my point.

Maybe if you could make your point without misrepresenting the facts or redefining well defined terms it would be better.



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If The Food Babe is equating "processed food" with adding "chemicals," that's a massive overgeneralization about the definition of "processed food," as well as an overgeneralization about the "chemicals" used in food preparation.

(And why am I not surprised that you're defending the ill-informed ravings of "The Food Babe"?)

I don't know anything about the food babe and I'm not defending her or her ravings.

I am familiar with the Clean Eating movement in general, and more familiar with Clean Keto dieters.

And I'm not defending either. I just think it's better to not misrepresent the truth when discussing issues like this.

Disagreeing with your misstatements doesn't mean I agree with Food Babe or anyone else.

If you want to discuss the approach of clean eating in a reasonable way, I'd suggest Zoe Hardcombe would be a better place to start than Food Babe.

But be careful, she's smart, and has a lot of research, good information and strong science to support her position. It would not be as easy to argue against her as it is your whipping post of the day.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline John Albert

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2019, 06:33:01 PM »
CarbShark, you refuse to engage in good faith, so this is not even a discussion.

At least I've gotten you to admit that the food woo promoters misrepresent the health properties of processed food, before you ran off the rails again.

But you're still obstinately misrepresenting things I've said, even doubling and tripling down on misunderstandings that I've repeatedly clarified. Now we're at the point where I'm just wasting my time trying to counter all of your lies, so it's really no use engaging with you any further.

However I invite you to reread this thread, and try to notice that you've been bickering and nitpicking against everybody who's expressed a skeptical attitude about food woo. In so doing, you've provided us all with an object-lesson of the "damn blind spot" that Shibboleth mentioned in the thread title.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 07:44:17 PM by John Albert »

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2019, 06:48:39 PM »
CarbShark,

Zoe Harcombe is just promoting her diet.  I’m suspicious of any diet advocate who has her own named diet, and has published (at least) 8 books promoting it.  She’s cherry picking the science to self-promote.
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline John Albert

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2019, 07:21:11 PM »
I think theres a few things everyone has experience with:
The education system
Eating/cooking
Parent/child relationships
Driving

These are all things that are almost universal and things where everyone feels they have expertise, so it leads to those with differing opinions refusing to back down because each feels like an expert. Argue about something long enough and it can become entrenched and unquestioned.

Indeed, and self-help books exist to offer guidance of varying quality on many of those subjects. There are lots of books of horrible ideas about parenting, for example. But the sheer volume of unqualified advice on dietary matters far outweighs all of those other topics. Why should that be?

I think it's simply because there's a lot more money to be made in promoting unqualified opinions about diet.


There are other less universal things that become similar for those they are relevant to:
Exercise
Sports team management
Whatever job speciality one might have.

There's a lot of dubious advice to be found about fitness as well. But I think there's a simple reason why dietary advice is far more plentiful than exercise advice: working out is hard, compared to eating which is easy. A lot of people are looking for an easy path to good health and fitness, so diet wins over exercise in the marketplace of ideas. 

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2019, 07:52:39 PM »
CarbShark, you refuse to engage in good faith, so this is not even a discussion.

At least I've gotten you to admit that the food woo promoters misrepresent the health properties of processed food, before you ran off the rails again.

But you're still obstinately misrepresenting things I've said, even doubling and tripling down on misunderstandings that I've repeatedly clarified. Now we're at the point where I'm just wasting my time trying to counter all of your lies, so it's really no use engaging with you any further.

However I invite you to reread this thread, and try to notice that you've been bickering and nitpicking against everybody who's expressed a skeptical attitude about food woo. In so doing, you've provided us all with an object-lesson of the "damn blind spot" that Shibboleth mentioned in the thread title.

Well you're back on ignore.

The point I've made, repeatedly which you have ignored, repeatedly, is that you are misrepresenting the positions of the Clean Food advocates in a way that seems dishonest.

It's easier to refute false arguments and straw man arguments than it is to tackle the substance.

And, no, I have not been defending anyone or anyone's position. I have been clarifying exactly what their positions are. In your false dichotomy view, that seems like I'm defending or nitpicking.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2019, 11:06:29 PM »
While the FDA definition of "processed" seems pretty clear, the definition  of "highly processed" really seems to mean anything the speaker thinks is bad for you. Being lazy, I buy low-sodium canned chili beans. These are quite healthful, yet are highly processed, being cook for hours (I presume) and preserved in cans. On the other hand, some very unhealthful junk foods can be produced with relatively little processing.

Processing, in my opinion, is the wrong metric if we want to decide if a food is healthful.

I have my own (vague) definition of what's bad for us, I call something a junk food if either sugar, salt, or fat predominate, or if any combination of those three predominate. If either sugar or fat is the first item in the ingredient list, it's a junk food by my definition, unless it is used as an ingredient, in moderation, in something else. And of course eating too many calories of anything is unhealthy.

Here's another example: Tortillas are made of masa, which is a very highly processed form of corn. The dry whole corn kernels are soaked in lye, and then the lye is washed out, an intensive process that results in nixtamal if the processed wet corn kernels are ground into a paste, or masa if they are dried and milled into flour. Either way the nixtamal or masa is made into tortillas, a nutritious food that, along with beans, has sustained the Mexican nation since just about forever. Some tortillerias will sell you nixtamal to make your own tortillas or tamales at home. (I miss the food in Mexico.)
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Offline John Albert

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2019, 11:29:31 PM »
There's a tortilleria about a half-mile from my house, and about a mile away is an excellent restaurant that makes their own tortillas in-house. There's nothing like a taco on a freshly-made tortilla. So delicious!

But that's true, tortillas are an extremely highly processed food that also constitute a healthy dietary staple for hundreds of millions of people.

"Processing" is just an industry term that means food preparation. Some types of processing (like cooking) are beneficial because they increase the digestibility of food, whereas other kinds of processing (like frying) can introduce potentially unhealthful compounds. Some processes can be beneficial for some foods, but not good for others. Some processed foods can be bad for you if you eat too much of them, but are just fine in moderate quantities. Some individuals have medical sensitivities to certain kinds of processing but not others. There are a lot of variables.

Hence it's reductive to say that processed food is bad, or even "highly processed food" (whatever that means) is bad.

The concept of "clean eating" is bullshit because it's not based in any consistent methodology. The phrase "clean eating" simply caught on as a buzzword in the food blogging community a few years ago, and different writers have various ideas about what it entails. It's not rooted in any kind of science, and its advocates are not even in agreement about what the word "clean" actually means. Some it to denote "organic" and "all natural" "whole" foods, others use it to promote raw foods, still others use it to mean replacing dairy with plant-based alternatives like oat, rice, and almond "milk."
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 12:11:06 AM by John Albert »

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2019, 12:22:44 AM »
While the FDA definition of "processed" seems pretty clear, the definition  of "highly processed" really seems to mean anything the speaker thinks is bad for you.

That is mostly true. The definition of processed is clear. And the definition of "highly processed" is less clear, but I would say that there may be some foods that are in a gray area (maybe they're processed, maybe they're highly processed) but for the most part the definition is clear for the bulk of foods.

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Being lazy, I buy low-sodium canned chili beans. These are quite healthful, yet are highly processed, being cook for hours (I presume) and preserved in cans.
They are definitely processed. They are cooked, mixed other ingredients and canned.[/quote]

But I would not say they are not necessarily highly processed. They still resemble beans. They could even meet the criteria for "clean" food, if there are no added chemicals.

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On the other hand, some very unhealthful junk foods can be produced with relatively little processing.

Example?

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Processing, in my opinion, is the wrong metric if we want to decide if a food is healthful.

I don't think that's what they are using it to decide. They are using processed to decide if they should eat the food or not.





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I have my own (vague) definition of what's bad for us, I call something a junk food if either sugar, salt, or fat predominate, or if any combination of those three predominate. If either sugar or fat is the first item in the ingredient list, it's a junk food by my definition, unless it is used as an ingredient, in moderation, in something else. And of course eating too many calories of anything is unhealthy.

The clean eaters definition of what to avoid is different: If a food has an ingredient label, don't eat it.
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Here's another example: Tortillas are made of masa, which is a very highly processed form of corn.
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I'd call that a borderline food, between processed and highly processed.



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The dry whole corn kernels are soaked in lye, and then the lye is washed out, an intensive process that results in nixtamal if the processed wet corn kernels are ground into a paste, or masa if they are dried and milled into flour. Either way the nixtamal or masa is made into tortillas, a nutritious food that, along with beans, has sustained the Mexican nation since just about forever. Some tortillerias will sell you nixtamal to make your own tortillas or tamales at home. (I miss the food in Mexico.)


That processing is minimal compared to processing of flours (including whole grain flours commonly used).
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline lonely moa

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2019, 04:16:23 AM »
I ground about a kg of beef heart and 600gms of lamb off cuts and mixed them with with a bit of fresh thyme, chopped onion and garlic and have made burgers for us the last three nights.  Is this too processed?  Should I hang my head in shame? 

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Online Harry Black

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2019, 05:06:33 AM »
I ground about a kg of beef heart and 600gms of lamb off cuts and mixed them with with a bit of fresh thyme, chopped onion and garlic and have made burgers for us the last three nights.  Is this too processed?  Should I hang my head in shame?
No, because theres nothing inherently wrong with processed food.

Offline John Albert

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2019, 11:15:22 AM »
In this thread we're getting a real good look at that so-called "damn blind spot," at least with regard to processed foods and the clean eating movement. But we haven't seen much by way of evidence for why so many people are so credulous of bad dietary information.

Where might we begin to look for some kind of evidence of that?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 11:24:20 AM by John Albert »

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2019, 11:41:05 AM »
I ground about a kg of beef heart and 600gms of lamb off cuts and mixed them with with a bit of fresh thyme, chopped onion and garlic and have made burgers for us the last three nights.  Is this too processed?  Should I hang my head in shame?
That’s not processing. Processing is manufacturing.

What you’re doing is preparation.

And it sounds good


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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline Captain Video

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2019, 12:08:59 PM »
I ground about a kg of beef heart and 600gms of lamb off cuts and mixed them with with a bit of fresh thyme, chopped onion and garlic and have made burgers for us the last three nights.  Is this too processed?  Should I hang my head in shame?

The only shame here is that you are calling it "burgers" when its actually meatloaf.   >:D

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Offline Ah.hell

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2019, 12:20:37 PM »
So to get back to the OP: What is it about food that makes people feel the need to constantly go to bat for their preferred diet?

I would suppose it's the intimacy of putting stuff inside of ourselves. Putting the wrong thing inside of you can kill you. It's a small step for the scientifically illiterate who do not understand the testing food ingredients are put through to question whether food ingredients are safe. And in fact, before the FDA many foods were not safe. The kinds of arguments made by the promoters of food woo sound plausible, and then combined with a "better safe than sorry" attitude, it can be easy to fall into the mind-set that big faceless corporations are selling us unsafe foods because it's profitable. Dihydrogen monoxide sounds really scary if you don't know better. AND THEY'RE PUTTING IT IN OUR FOOD!!!
I think there is probably something deeply instinctive about it.  Until quite recently most folks devoted a great deal of time to just obtaining enough calories.  In developed and most developing countries we don't have to anymore.  So we now devote extra energy to think about which readily available calories are the right ones to consume.   And there is definitely a great deal of advertising out there trying to convince us that those other calories are "dirty" some how.

And as is so common on the internet we are conflating different definitions of processed.  Sure, technically it means just about anything you do to raw food in order to make it palatable.  Colloquially it means pre-packaged pre-cooked or practically pre-cooked food I.E. Kraft Dinner, not a salad.  And yes, if you avoid that, you will likely eat a more healthy diet.  But as noted in the article posted below, the clean food movement is everything from avoiding that to raw foodism.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 12:24:31 PM by Ah.hell »

Online Harry Black

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Re: Why is food such a damn blind spot for so many.
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2019, 12:59:31 PM »
I also think that a part of it is to do with the quick wins we got in extending life expectancy in the last 200 years. People get used to the idea that there is a thing you can eat/not eat that has a big impact on health and once we get through those few basic things, we seek out the feeling of learning more things that we can do to benefit our health.