Author Topic: All Deepfake research must be terminated. Society is not ready.  (Read 2407 times)

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Offline Igor SMC

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Deepfake research must be ruled unethical for the moment. I know that it may sound extreme at first, but when you stop to analyze the situation from a realistic point of view, this becomes very clear. What are the alleged benefits of this technology? Entertainment. What are the potential damages? Being weaponized for political purposes. During the grey zone that we are going to through in which this is a new thing, to the moment society and our laws are somewhat adapted to it, innocent people will get incriminated by false videos. Legitimate videos will be discarded as evidence by someone stating that it was a deepfake. At a certain point, and this is inevitable, video will no longer be considered strong evidence in investigations and will achieve the same level of reliance as a witness account that must be investigated.

People are quick to point out that the technology to detect these fakes are also being developed... But to say this, is to completely ignore how misinformation spreads through the internet and social circles. Someone will create a pixel perfect deepfake. Another person will use algorithms to prove it is fake. The fake version will spread exponentially on the internet, and by people speaking to one another physically. Even if the real video is one google search away, the vast majority of people will not be reached by it. At that moment, it could be too late. An election day might have passed. A person lost his job. Someone's reputation completely obliterated. Someone being lynched and killed for a crime he did not commit... and the benefits of this technology? Entertainment...
"Knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring fable"

Offline Captain Video

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Re: All Deepfake research must be terminated. Society is not ready.
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2019, 11:23:28 AM »
so you want us to get rid of all green screens, rotoscoping, mo-cap and compositing or just the new adobe plug-in that saves time and money by doing it quickly?

Should we ditch Photoshop?

I cant agree with you.


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Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: All Deepfake research must be terminated. Society is not ready.
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2019, 11:51:58 AM »
There's no putting the genie back into the bottle.

We need some kind of digital signing system for all photo, audio and video.
If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

Offline Igor SMC

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Re: All Deepfake research must be terminated. Society is not ready.
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2019, 12:03:11 PM »
so you want us to get rid of all green screens, rotoscoping, mo-cap and compositing or just the new adobe plug-in that saves time and money by doing it quickly?

Should we ditch Photoshop?

I cant agree with you.

Rotoscoping, mo-cap and compositing are expensive things that pose very little danger of misuse, and require specialists and hardware to create. This technology is cheap and fast, hundreds of millions of common people would be able to use it. This will cause a real flood of fake videos.

About Photoshop: In investigations digital images are already analyzed with skepticism because of it. Thats why they hire specialists in image manipulation before validating it as evidence.
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Offline Captain Video

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Re: All Deepfake research must be terminated. Society is not ready.
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2019, 12:17:56 PM »
so you want us to get rid of all green screens, rotoscoping, mo-cap and compositing or just the new adobe plug-in that saves time and money by doing it quickly?

Should we ditch Photoshop?

I cant agree with you.

Rotoscoping, mo-cap and compositing are expensive things that pose very little danger of misuse, and require specialists and hardware to create. This technology is cheap and fast, hundreds of millions of common people would be able to use it. This will cause a real flood of fake videos.

About Photoshop: In investigations digital images are already analyzed with skepticism because of it. Thats why they hire specialists in image manipulation before validating it as evidence.

all Adobe software for $50 a month, $25 if you have a student ID, the demo works for 30 days and there are a million cracks available.

With After effects I can now remove you from a video with the click of a button and no green screen.

All of the high end compositing software is free, you can download it right now and get to work, you only pay if you use it to make money. Most "specialists" got that way by downloading it and playing with it until they got it right.

As to hardware your average computer can handle all of this. It just takes longer to render.

I agree we are about to see a flood in video fakes but just like we did with Photoshop we will need experts to analyze the videos.  Stopping the advance of technology is not the answer.
“Don't explain computers to laymen. Simpler to explain sex to a virgin.”
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Offline Awatsjr

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Re: All Deepfake research must be terminated. Society is not ready.
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2019, 01:32:52 PM »
I can’t swim.

Offline Igor SMC

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Re: All Deepfake research must be terminated. Society is not ready.
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2019, 01:41:01 PM »
The João Doria Case

João Doria is one of the most influential politicians in Brazil. He was the mayor of São Paulo, the largest and most populated city in the southern hemisphere of the globe. 5 days prior to the election, a video surfaced alleging that he was using public money to have orgies with several prostitutes. He claimed that the video was "obviously a deepfake". On youtube and several articles on the internet it was being claimed that the video was analyzed by experts, and it was concluded it was indeed a fake... The next day, other videos of other experts appear claiming that it was real. Now... how can the public judge in this case? Since "experts" were giving contradictory statements, who can we trust? Should we believe that he bribed some experts to say that it was a fake, or should we believe that someone from the opposition bribed someone to create the video and claim that it was real?

In both cases, my point in this topic is explicitly proven.

He is innocent and is suffering damage to his public image because of the video? Deepfakes are the problem.
The video is legitimate and he managed to get away from it by simply saying it was a fraud? Deepfakes are the problem.


« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 02:17:40 PM by Igor SMC »
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Offline The Latinist

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Re: All Deepfake research must be terminated. Society is not ready.
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2019, 01:53:26 PM »
I don’t think there is any way to put this genie back in the bottle.  There may be a way of hashing or signing images to make it easier to detect modification, but ultimately we’re going to have to get used to the fact that seeing just isn’t believing any more. This generation has already dealt with the death of the expectation of privacy, and the next will have to deal with this.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline Igor SMC

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Re: All Deepfake research must be terminated. Society is not ready.
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2019, 02:00:27 PM »
Keanu Reeves Stops A ROBBERY!

This technology allows someone to create an extremely realistic looking image of Keanu Reeves doing something nice? This technology allows the creation of a career-destroying video of Keanu Reeves too.

You mentioned other techniques... but they are very, very far from creating something so realistic, with so little expertise and resources. After Affects and Premiere Pro algorithms are not neural networks!!! This is absolutely a different level!

Imagine the scenario where someone uses actors and this technology to accuse someone of rape! Imagine how exponentially fast the fake video will spread, and how much time, effort and money will it take for the person to spread the truth to 10% of that same group of people...
At the same time, imagine that a real rape video surfaces, and the criminal getting away simply by saying it was a deepfake!

Also, keep in mind the difference in quality of deepfakes of 2019 from the ones in 2015. Now extrapolate this to deepfakes of 2025. Do you see how destructive this technology is??? For what?? Just for the sake of entertainment???
"Knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring fable"

Offline The Latinist

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Re: All Deepfake research must be terminated. Society is not ready.
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2019, 02:53:40 PM »
What exactly do you think such a ban would entail?
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline Igor SMC

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Re: All Deepfake research must be terminated. Society is not ready.
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2019, 03:05:52 PM »
What exactly do you think such a ban would entail?

First, allow time for legislation to be created... Celebrities must have the right to sue anyone creating deepfakes with their faces. They are by far the most vulnerable, since it's very easy to create perfect fakes... AI systems need material to learn... and it's very easy to find literally thousands of images and hundreds of hours of video of them.

Second, allow scientists more time to deliberate and understand the real consequences. All fields of science must respect ethical barriers of research... why in the digital realm it should be a free for all?

Legislation must also be created to increase the punishment of people using deepfakes as evidence...

This is what I mean by the fact that objectively society is not ready. We don't have the culture, the technology or the legislation yet to cope with something so extremely serious like this.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 03:10:25 PM by Igor SMC »
"Knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring fable"

Offline The Latinist

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Re: All Deepfake research must be terminated. Society is not ready.
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2019, 03:36:28 PM »
You have not explained what a ban on research would consist of.  “Allowing time” is a goal, not a method.  So what research techniques, specifically, would you ban and how would you enforce it? What secondary effects and unintended consequences do you anticipate, and how would you mitigate them? What about dual-use technologies?
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline Captain Video

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Re: All Deepfake research must be terminated. Society is not ready.
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2019, 04:10:07 PM »
What exactly do you think such a ban would entail?

First, allow time for legislation to be created... Celebrities must have the right to sue anyone creating deepfakes with their faces. They are by far the most vulnerable, since it's very easy to create perfect fakes... AI systems need material to learn... and it's very easy to find literally thousands of images and hundreds of hours of video of them.

Second, allow scientists more time to deliberate and understand the real consequences. All fields of science must respect ethical barriers of research... why in the digital realm it should be a free for all?

Legislation must also be created to increase the punishment of people using deepfakes as evidence...

This is what I mean by the fact that objectively society is not ready. We don't have the culture, the technology or the legislation yet to cope with something so extremely serious like this.

wait, so I cant composite Trumps face on porky pigs face wearing a Nazi uniform without him suing me?

I think we already had a case similar to this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hustler_Magazine_v._Falwell

It would already be against the law to composite his face onto (another) criminals face in a video then try to frame him for the same crime claiming it was him.  I don't know what would need to change.

To do so for entertainment purposes is not, nor should it be against the law.
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Offline Captain Video

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Re: All Deepfake research must be terminated. Society is not ready.
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2019, 04:22:55 PM »
Keanu Reeves Stops A ROBBERY!

This technology allows someone to create an extremely realistic looking image of Keanu Reeves doing something nice? This technology allows the creation of a career-destroying video of Keanu Reeves too.

You mentioned other techniques... but they are very, very far from creating something so realistic, with so little expertise and resources. After Affects and Premiere Pro algorithms are not neural networks!!! This is absolutely a different level!

Imagine the scenario where someone uses actors and this technology to accuse someone of rape! Imagine how exponentially fast the fake video will spread, and how much time, effort and money will it take for the person to spread the truth to 10% of that same group of people...
At the same time, imagine that a real rape video surfaces, and the criminal getting away simply by saying it was a deepfake!

Also, keep in mind the difference in quality of deepfakes of 2019 from the ones in 2015. Now extrapolate this to deepfakes of 2025. Do you see how destructive this technology is??? For what?? Just for the sake of entertainment???

what do you think this video was made with?  some fancy new "Deep Fake" software?  nope, they used after effects and a green screen




Edit: "Deep fake" is just a media buzz word for what we call compositing.

Big edit: Sorry, actually I was wrong, they did use some specialized software in conjunction with AE but I think my point still stands. look how much work it took and how much they needed the other software to sell the effect. They didnt need the extra software and still could have done it with AE or better yet NUKE



« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 04:37:05 PM by Captain Video »
“Don't explain computers to laymen. Simpler to explain sex to a virgin.”
― Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

Offline Gigabyte

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Re: All Deepfake research must be terminated. Society is not ready.
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2019, 07:18:17 PM »
Has anyone verified this is actually true?  And if so, how can we know if it is?  It's a very old issue.

How do you know if something is true if you didn't see it with your own eyes?

I don't understand some things, but at least I know I don't know

 

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