Author Topic: Is there life on mars? Who is watching the Watchman? (HBO spoiler discussion)  (Read 1234 times)

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Online Harry Black

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I dont hate Lindelof.
I just think he excels at set up and usually fucks up the delivery. His shows always arrive in very consumable packages but both Lost and The Leftovers missed the landing at the end in my opinion.
The Leftovers especially wasnt all that great in the whole white saviour narrative in Australia so Im a bit concerned he may lack the sensibilities to walk the tight rope he has set out for himself.

Offline PANTS!

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Glen Weldon, who I trust very much, and has deep comic cred, says wait until ep 6.  He says that Lineflhoff "gets it", and that this fact surprised him.  So I am sill seeing the football there.......
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Offline Tassie Dave

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I dont hate Lindelof.
I just think he excels at set up and usually fucks up the delivery. His shows always arrive in very consumable packages but both Lost and The Leftovers missed the landing at the end in my opinion.
The Leftovers especially wasnt all that great in the whole white saviour narrative in Australia so Im a bit concerned he may lack the sensibilities to walk the tight rope he has set out for himself.

I agree with Lost, but I think The Leftovers had 2 great endings.

If you believe Nora is an 'unreliable narrator' then you had the, it's all a huge mystery that we'll never know the answer to ending, that some people liked about the book version

or if you believe Nora, then you had a great twist ending where you know where everyone went and Nora had her closure
(click to show/hide)

I wasn't happy with a lot of the Season 3 stuff, especially the Australia stuff, but that final episode and the possible endings, satisfied me.

Lost was just Lindeloff running into an open goal to win a game, then tripping over his own shoelaces and face planting into the goal post while his pants are falling down  ;)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 10:22:56 PM by Tassie Dave »

Online Harry Black

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Glen Weldon, who I trust very much, and has deep comic cred, says wait until ep 6.  He says that Lineflhoff "gets it", and that this fact surprised him.  So I am sill seeing the football there.......
I will stick with it then! Three more eps isnt a lot to ask and knowing me I will probably finish the season anyway.
I dont hate Lindelof.
I just think he excels at set up and usually fucks up the delivery. His shows always arrive in very consumable packages but both Lost and The Leftovers missed the landing at the end in my opinion.
The Leftovers especially wasnt all that great in the whole white saviour narrative in Australia so Im a bit concerned he may lack the sensibilities to walk the tight rope he has set out for himself.

I agree with Lost, but I think The Leftovers had 2 great endings.

If you believe Nora is an 'unreliable narrator' then you had the, it's all a huge mystery that we'll never know the answer to ending, that some people liked about the book version

or if you believe Nora, then you had a great twist ending where you know where everyone went and Nora had her closure
(click to show/hide)

I wasn't happy with a lot of the Season 3 stuff, especially the Australia stuff, but that final episode and the possible endings, satisfied me.

Lost was just Lindeloff running into an open goal to win a game, then tripping over his own shoelaces and face planting into the goal post while his pants are falling down  ;)
I got tricked into watching that show. I knew I would hate it but I had made a deal with a friend to try each others shows. He assured me there was an answer at the end as to what had happened and...there wasnt! I know the show was never about the answer but thats just not my kind of show.
So Im not denying that some people may be into Lindelof but he just hasnt been to my taste in the past.
The reason I brought up the show in reference to this one is that I felt he didnt really get the problem with the dad trying to recreate first peoples ceremonies. The text of the show and the metanarrative suggested to me that there were things about that issue that he did not fully understand, so Im curious to see how well he ends up handling the stack of dry kindling that is race relations and the police in America.

Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Glen Weldon, who I trust very much, and has deep comic cred, says wait until ep 6.  He says that Lineflhoff "gets it", and that this fact surprised him.  So I am sill seeing the football there.......
That's encouraging. I felt like next episode 4 might break the show if not handled well, but I'm glad to hear there's longer viability in the project. I'm still more stoked for Rick n Morty Season 4 this sunday.  8)
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Offline Captain Video

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That makes some sense as I have some inside information. The production went on an unplanned hiatus halfway through for rewrites. I have no clue why or if they were shooting episodes or block shooting (two or more episodes at one time or shooting the whole season like a film)

We should not read too far into this as there could be thousands of reasons for re-writes, none of them having anything to do with it being "good" or perhaps they needed to fix things to make them good, no clue.

As a side note Im secretly listening to a group of writers on a show doing re-writes at this very moment, its interesting to listen too and hard to keep my mouth shut because I keep having good ideas too but I must remain invisible.  >:D
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Offline PANTS!

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Glen Weldon, who I trust very much, and has deep comic cred, says wait until ep 6.  He says that Lineflhoff "gets it", and that this fact surprised him.  So I am sill seeing the football there.......
That's encouraging. I felt like next episode 4 might break the show if not handled well, but I'm glad to hear there's longer viability in the project. I'm still more stoked for Rick n Morty Season 4 this sunday.  8)

Rick and Morty is like a bittersweet pill right now. 
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-Uptown, Prince 👉

The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds

Online Eternally Learning

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I have to say that with each new episode, I become more and more confident in feeling good about this show.  I'm not sure about whatever messages they are trying to deliver being coherent or well-made, but I think the show will be enjoyable regardless; the quality just keeps going up with each episode.

Offline Tassie Dave

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What is the clock ticking down for?  Is Trieu good or bad? I feel the old guy is mostly good which complicates my feelings on her.

They have hinted that the Russians are building an intrinsic field generator. Is the overall mystery of the series going to be how the smart, rich people, (Veidt and/or Treiu), manipulate the world to stop the Russians making their own version of Dr Manhattan? Veidt killed millions to save the world from destruction in the 80s. Are they prepared to go as far this time?

More mystery, but they did answer (or add more mystery to) some of the questions I had.

What are they celebrating? His cake has 1 candle in Ep 1, 2 in ep 2 & 3 in Ep 3. Though, unless they are playing around with time, 1 year hasn't passed between each episode.

The cake this week had 4 candles and Veidt tell us he has been there (held captive) for 4 years, which, apparently, pissed him off a bit during that party.  ???

The "robotic" servant has real looking burnt flesh. Are they cyborgs, androids or, even, rapidly grown clones? Clones seems the obvious answer.

The scene where Veidt pulls the babies (clones ? ) out of a Cray-pot and grows them in an incubator was a bit weird.  ???

Where is Veidt being held captive? The countryside and castle looks English, but the events of this episode lead me to think he is being held somewhere off world.
He dresses up the clone servant up in some sort of suit (with oxygen) to withstand the cold and leaves him. When he comes back he is frozen solid. This leads me to believe they are on Mars. Probably in some sort of habitat built by Dr Manhattan. Mars at night drops to ridiculously cold temps (Up to -70+C, -100F) while it can be a nice 20C (70F) during the day. Though this adds another question. How is he going to get from Mars to Earth?  ??? Could he be back in Antarctica?

We know he's inside some enclosed habitat. They strongly hint at it being on the moon with that cut-away shot. The first time we see Veidt in Episode 1 they cut away to the night sky.

Who's holding him captive? Dr Manhattan was the obvious answer, until Trieu showed up this episode. She does own his company and is a trillionaire.


Offline Captain Video

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The title made me laugh

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Online Eternally Learning

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The title made me laugh

Apparently it's a line in the book Cal was reading.

Online Harry Black

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I forget. Have we seen any pictures of young Veidt?
Im wondering who the clones are of?

Im pretty sure I know who Trieu is but dont want to spoil anything for non readers. I think there was a give away line though and its pretty obvious to readers to the point that it could be a red herring.
I hadnt thought of the idea of them playing with time actually. Having all of those days be snippets one year apart might explain the madness he is displaying but not everything there adds up either.
Of course there were aspects of these scenes that delight my radical leftist side.

I am wondering if the game keeper could be a clone of William? Assigned as a jailer? It would explain the cowboy aesthetic if the foundational thing that made him a hero was having a hero for a father he barely knew and watching movies of Bass Reeves (which clearly still influence him). There is also the star on young Williams chest.
And such a character would be a great counterpoint to Veidt in being both a match and a source of frustration.
That leads me to ask if Angela is really his grand daughter or a clone? She seems equally affected by symbols of justice she saw as a child.
Angela is absolutely shit at keeping her identity and abuse of power secret though.
"Oh we had a break in? What did they access? Do we have any CCTV in this hyper futuristic hologram genetic data centre?"

I doubt Manhattan had much of a hand in Veidts situation. He seemed really not to care at the end of the book. Clearly he has helped Trieu but that would have happened before the end of the book.

This episode has gotten me on board and VERY interested.
The sci fi elements we seem to be dealing with so far are:
Interdimensional travel.

Some method of fortelling that seems to not have much lead time.

Possible time travel (why was the notice to buy the house so short but she was able to show up with a baby clone? Is that perhaps how the incubator works?)

A type of cloning which seems to impart some sort of genetic memory? And involve some method of accelerated learning?

Offline Tassie Dave

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Possible time travel (why was the notice to buy the house so short but she was able to show up with a baby clone? Is that perhaps how the incubator works?)

People like Veidt and Trieu are thinking years ahead. It is implied that when the woman's eggs were harvested, she was lied to about their viability for IVF.

Trieu only needed 9 months to grow a baby the old fashioned way. It was the ultimate deal closer.

Though cloning is possible. There have been a lot of clues thrown out about other possible clones in the show.
I do believe Angela is Williams' granddaughter. That information is provided to her from the cultural centre. Firstly via Williams' DNA and secondly from her profile. Though that could all be a red herring. Records can be faked.

and what's the deal with the silver spandex dude who lubed himself up and slid into the sewer  ??? Tall and skinny. Could it be FBI Agent Dale Petey (Laurie's boy-toy side-kick). He is obsessed with the masked vigilantes and their history. His character is the person credited with posting the Peteypedia files on the HBO site.

Edit: I just read the most recent additions to the Peteypedia. Laurie explains the case with the blue dildo. Her boyfriend dan (Owlman) thought she was still hung up on Dr Manhattan and made it.
In Laurie's words: "Dan was convinced I was still holding a candle for my ex, so he made me a big blue dildo as a f###-you, literally"

She is being interviewed in 1995 after killing Timothy McVeigh who was on his way to blow up the Murrah Building.

There are also blueprints for the dildo's design  ??? It's called Excalibur and is 13" long  ;)

https://www.hbo.com/peteypedia
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 02:23:02 PM by Tassie Dave »

Online Harry Black

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Possible time travel (why was the notice to buy the house so short but she was able to show up with a baby clone? Is that perhaps how the incubator works?)

People like Veidt and Trieu are thinking years ahead. It is implied that when the woman's eggs were harvested, she was lied to about their viability for IVF.

Trieu only needed 9 months to grow a baby the old fashioned way. It was the ultimate deal closer.

Though cloning is possible. There have been a lot of clues thrown out about other possible clones in the show.
I do believe Angela is Williams' granddaughter. That information is provided to her from the cultural centre. Firstly via Williams' DNA and secondly from her profile. Though that could all be a red herring. Records can be faked.

and what's the deal with the silver spandex dude who lubed himself up and slid into the sewer  ??? Tall and skinny. Could it be FBI Agent Dale Petey (Laurie's boy-toy side-kick). He is obsessed with the masked vigilantes and their history. His character is the person credited with posting the Peteypedia files on the HBO site.

Edit: I just read the most recent additions to the Peteypedia. Laurie explains the case with the blue dildo. Her boyfriend dan (Owlman) thought she was still hung up on Dr Manhattan and made it.
In Laurie's words: "Dan was convinced I was still holding a candle for my ex, so he made me a big blue dildo as a f###-you, literally"

She is being interviewed in 1995 after killing Timothy McVeigh who was on his way to blow up the Murrah Building.

There are also blueprints for the dildo's design  ??? It's called Excalibur and is 13" long  ;)

https://www.hbo.com/peteypedia
The only reason I dont think that situation is a result of years of foresight is because of the short notice with which she arrived and the time frame for enforcing the choice.

Offline Tassie Dave

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The only reason I dont think that situation is a result of years of foresight is because of the short notice with which she arrived and the time frame for enforcing the choice.

A lot of that was for dramatic effect. Plus what is she going to do with the baby if they say no. The time limit is part of her psychological manipulation of their choice.

It was a great scene.




 

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