Author Topic: What's going on at the Atheist Experience?  (Read 752 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ron Obvious

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 233
What's going on at the Atheist Experience?
« on: July 21, 2019, 04:26:13 PM »
I haven't listened in quite a while as it did tend to get repetitive after a while. Only Matt Dillahunty seemed to be up for a proper slap down of theist callers, and a little of that goes a long way too.

I've heard that many board members have quit, and now they've apparently fallen afoul of PZ as well (https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2019/07/21/the-atheist-experience-is-going-away/) with vague allegations of bigotry and phobias.  WTF? That doesn't sound at all like the AXP to me, whose faults seemed to lie more in the other direction.

Is this another example of the "Woke" turning on each other, like the implosion over at Atheism+ or what's going on?

Online stands2reason

  • Empiricist, Positivist, Militant Agnostic
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 10574
Re: What's going on at the Atheist Experience?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2019, 04:48:59 PM »
Is this another example of the "Woke" turning on each other, like the implosion over at Atheism+ or what's going on?

Says pretty clearly in the last paragraph of the blog you linked:

Quote
There are many things we will not tolerate on any of the blogs here: racism, misogyny, homophobia, and transphobia are all grounds for ejection from the network. The ACA is guilty of the last.

PZ Meyers is talking about the AXP blog, so it might not be content that was on the show. Would like to hear more details of what happened.

Offline st3class

  • Keeps Priorities Straight
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
Re: What's going on at the Atheist Experience?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2019, 05:02:27 PM »
Here's what I've been able to glean from the show and from the subreddit.

(Keep in mind this is from my memory, I haven't been able to verify a lot of this, so it may contain inaccuracies)

During a recent tour, Matt did an event with Rationality Rules, an atheist youtuber. Somewhere during that timeframe, RR did a video about transgender athletes, which was interpreted by some as transphobic (I haven't seen the video, so I can't judge).

Apparently, Matt had some conversations directly with RR about it, and was satisfied with the conversation, even if he didn't necessarily agree with RR. Meanwhile, Atheist Community of Austin (ACA), who runs AXP, came out with a statement condemning RR's video.

Matt didn't like the statement, because in his mind the conversation with RR had resolved things, and RR had already taken down the video, and replaced it with another. Apparently some backroom dealing and stuff over social media happened, because ACA
s condemnation was retracted, which somehow pissed of John, Jen and Tracie. They left the show, leaving Matt and Don as the only hosts.

This has apparently blown up enough for PZ to remove AXP from Freethought Blogs, and for Godless Bitches to go off the air as well.

It really feels like there's a lot happening in the background that we're not hearing about, especially if you don't follow social media closely.
It's always more complicated than that.

Offline Ron Obvious

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 233
Re: What's going on at the Atheist Experience?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2019, 05:05:11 PM »
Says pretty clearly in the last paragraph of the blog you linked:

Quote
There are many things we will not tolerate on any of the blogs here: racism, misogyny, homophobia, and transphobia are all grounds for ejection from the network. The ACA is guilty of the last.

PZ Meyers is talking about the AXP blog, so it might not be content that was on the show. Would like to hear more details of what happened.

I don't think that's clear at all without specifics, as those accusations are thrown around all the time these days. I honestly can't imagine the AXP guys being guilty of these things.

Offline Ron Obvious

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 233
Re: What's going on at the Atheist Experience?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2019, 05:26:43 PM »
It really feels like there's a lot happening in the background that we're not hearing about, especially if you don't follow social media closely.

Thanks for the clarification. I don't follow social media at all, but this would seem to agree with the vague allegations I've seen alluded to. PZ really has become a buffoon, if that's all it is. Not wanting biological men (or boys) to compete with women is enough to get you labelled a bigot these days? Not even honest discussion is allowed, apparently, even it's to point out the unfairness to female athletes.

Pathetic if that's all is.

Offline daniel1948

  • Isn’t a
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 8580
  • I'd rather be paddling
Re: What's going on at the Atheist Experience?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2019, 08:52:18 PM »
Not wanting biological men (or boys) to compete with women is enough to get you labelled a bigot these days?

A trans woman is not a "biological man."

That's all I wanted to say here. I've never heard of any of the people or podcasts mentioned above.
Daniel
----------------
"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline Ron Obvious

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 233
Re: What's going on at the Atheist Experience?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2019, 09:13:22 PM »
A trans woman is not a "biological man."

Sigh...

Offline Belgarath

  • Forum Sugar Daddy
  • Technical Administrator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 11859
Re: What's going on at the Atheist Experience?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2019, 11:51:51 PM »
A trans woman is not a "biological man."

Sigh...

He's right.  Sigh all you want.
#non-belief denialist

Online 2397

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2796
Re: What's going on at the Atheist Experience?
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2019, 01:40:22 AM »
I found this 2 hour YouTube audio-only conversation, which I haven't listened to yet, but it's Kevin Logan "Speaking with Tracie Harris, Jen Peeples & Clare Wuellner about the split within the ACA".

« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 01:42:50 AM by 2397 »

Offline mindme

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 8761
    • http://www.yrad.com/cs
Re: What's going on at the Atheist Experience?
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2019, 09:42:05 AM »
Transgender athletes is one of those issues I'm really not sure which side to come down on. Hypothetically, since it impacts women athletes, there's no side I should be coming down on (as a male). That said, I'm sure these kinds of things become political issues and politicians asking for my vote do have a side. And I have to then figure out if I vote for a politician who wants to ban trans athletes, am I helping or harming women friends?

I just don't know.
"Because the world needs more Mark Crislip."

Conspiracy Skeptic Podcast
Korean Podcast
Michael Goudeau, Vegas Comedy Entertainer Available for Trade Shows

Online 2397

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2796
Re: What's going on at the Atheist Experience?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2019, 11:25:05 AM »
Listened to most of the first hour of the above video (there's not a consistent sound level, so I definitely missed some of it). Overall it sounds like they were frustrated by the lack of a public response from the ACA/the Atheist Experience on the issue, and the poor handling of their community and social media presence, rather than specific ideological disagreements.

Seems Russell Glasser has also left.

I'd like to watch the video* that was the original source of contention, but I see on Rationality Rules an "I’ve Been Denounced by the ACA" video that's older than the two with titles about transgenders, so I don't know if that means he's deleted it, or if the alleged transphobia was part of a different topic.

On the issue of transgenders and sport, maybe athletes should be more involved and represented in the debate. As someone who's not that into professional sport, and as much as I generally feel that gender should be removed as a factor wherever possible, I don't have a strong opinion on where to draw the line for athletes. Or whether there should be overlapping lines to allow for more personal choice.

Male and female as a divide works in some 99% of cases, if there's a need to divide at all. Or does it? Martial arts have weight classes. Could there be similar additional categories for other sports, based around measurable factors that would entail a persistent advantage or disadvantage in the sport?

Edit: *This appears to be it. Delisted but not deleted, and there is this note:

Quote
Hey all. I want to make very clear that I made a few major mistakes within this video, and that due to this I'll be publishing a new video relatively soon in which I correct these mistakes and express my altered views. To be clear, I haven’t done a complete u-turn, but my views have indeed changed in very important ways.



Edit2: I could see this being a sort of "I'm not a racist, but" type of situation, where people start by talking about how they are in favor of people choosing their own identity, "but... ". To the point where entities like Fox News could remove the part before and including the but, and go beyond the original intent. Maybe people who are transphobic seek out these narrow issues to use as a wedge in their broader agenda.

But, this video or the issues in it do not seem like something that the ACA couldn't have handled talking about, including with Rationality Rules/Woodford, through some kind of public channel.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 12:15:39 PM by 2397 »

Offline daniel1948

  • Isn’t a
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 8580
  • I'd rather be paddling
Re: What's going on at the Atheist Experience?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2019, 12:12:12 PM »
I think that the transphobic argument is that trans woman have more testosterone than cis women and therefore have an unfair advantage. But at the elite levels, all athletes have advantages over each other. Zola Budd, who won marathons around the time I started jogging and subscribed to a runners magazine, was born with an unusually large inseam:height ratio (i.e. long legs for her height) and due to a childhood illness (IIRC) was very thin. If you are 5' 5" tall, you're not going to play in the NBA. The top sprinters have way more short-twitch muscle fibers than others. And there is a wide natural variation in testosterone in cis women resulting from genetic or environmental factors. Athletics is not "fair." Athletics is all about who was born with advantages in their genes, their upbringing, and how much money their parents had. And athletes cheat all the time by taking performance-enhancing drugs.

I don't know, honestly, if trans women actually have some sort of advantage over cis women. I kind of doubt it. But if they do, it is most certainly buried in the noise of all the advantages of birth, upbringing, and drug use that athletes have over each other and over the rest of us.

Full disclosure: I think that competitive athletics is a destructive enterprise. Athletics should be done for health and enjoyment in an environment where it does not matter who wins, or ideally where there is no winner. Where the stronger athletes help the weaker ones so that everyone gets exercise and has fun. In this environment nobody cares if somebody has an advantage. Here on Maui there are competitive canoe races, but there are also two races a year where there's no time keeping and no record of winners, and everybody has a lot more fun because in this environment, everybody "wins." In these two races weak and strong paddlers paddle together, and you can turn around before the buoy if you want to. Instead of "us" vs "them" everybody is "us." And it doesn't matter if someone has a better paddle or longer arms and it doesn't matter if your boat is slower because one or two of your crew are weaker than the rest.

So I really don't care if one athlete has an advantage over another because every winning athlete has "unfair" advantages. But I do care if some misinformed person tells a woman that she cannot participate because she's trans rather than cis. And I really doubt that trans women as a group have athletic advantages over cis women as a group. This issue is really not about biology at all. It's about bigotry against trans people.
Daniel
----------------
"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline mindme

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 8761
    • http://www.yrad.com/cs
Re: What's going on at the Atheist Experience?
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2019, 02:09:16 PM »
I know women who are very enlightened. Don't blink an eye at gay people, trans people, swingers, nudists, whatever. Whatever floats your boat. But they voice deep opposition to trans women in the locker room with them and trans women playing women's sports. The argument seems to be "I don't want to see a penis in the women's locker room" and "unfair advantage".

"Because the world needs more Mark Crislip."

Conspiracy Skeptic Podcast
Korean Podcast
Michael Goudeau, Vegas Comedy Entertainer Available for Trade Shows

Online stands2reason

  • Empiricist, Positivist, Militant Agnostic
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 10574
Re: What's going on at the Atheist Experience?
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2019, 04:03:18 PM »
Agreed that in the name of the fairness, there should probably be more categories based on body type.

For example, a third "sports gender" for inter-sex & trans people. This could also apply to cis-gender people that are biologically atypical enough that they might be disqualified e.g. women that have been disqualified because they have unusually large testosterone.

Weight class or body type makes more sense, since the difference in physique among either sex is still larger than the average difference between them.

Offline mindme

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 8761
    • http://www.yrad.com/cs
Re: What's going on at the Atheist Experience?
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2019, 09:53:51 AM »
So much of trans opposition comes from right wing religious bigots that when I hear any kind of opposition to trans people in any capacity, I reflexively think it comes from a place of bigotry. But then when I read what otherwise progressive women friends have to say about trans people in locker rooms or in sports, I sorta go "okay, I have no voice in this debate!" Except for the fact politicians have started to voice their own policies on all of this and now I have no clue if opposition to trans people in some capacity is based on evidence or its a reason to not vote for the politician...
« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 11:24:31 AM by mindme »
"Because the world needs more Mark Crislip."

Conspiracy Skeptic Podcast
Korean Podcast
Michael Goudeau, Vegas Comedy Entertainer Available for Trade Shows

 

personate-rain
personate-rain