Author Topic: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?  (Read 1646 times)

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Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« on: July 25, 2019, 03:16:17 PM »
Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
Taxation determines what poverty levels will exist within it’s demographic form. It controls the graph shown below. Governments control taxation and thus control poverty levels directly.
Imagine if you will, the real truth of that taxation, if used correctly, to move the wealth shown in this graph wherever it wants to, with minimal effect on the whole. The fact is, experts say that such a reality would be a win win for everyone.
https://www.upworthy.com/9-out-of-10-americans-are-completely-wrong-about-this-mind-blowing-fact-2
Not how little of a change would be needed to reach the ideal.
Wise and moral people throughout history, as well as most religious movements, put poverty as the number one enemy to man’s first priority, which is security.
For perhaps the first time in history, we have the wealth where we could end poverty quite easily, --- just with our collective loose change.
It would seem to me that governments are not acting ethically and should be chastised.
I guess that George Carlin, a wise person, was correct in what he said of what Americans cannot feel in their anal orifices. I apply the same condition to the vast majority of the world.

If true that we are being willfully ignorant, and do not even care about each other to insure we live in a moral environment, then our owners have succeeded in cowering man’s moral nature to a state of subservience. We have given up our freedom. If we ever had any.
We have all accepted to be slaves. Shame on us all.
We do not live in a Democracy. We live in a Hypocrisy.
We can easily rid ourselves of poverty.
Should we?
Morality says yes.
Will we do the right thing?
Not till hell freezes over.
Regards
DL

Online The Latinist

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2019, 04:47:20 PM »
That was an awful lot of words and florid rhetoric to express the simple idea of a more progressive tax structure.
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Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2019, 04:53:17 PM »
That was an awful lot of words and florid rhetoric to express the simple idea of a more progressive tax structure.

Apologies, but I do not see it as long.

We do all have our limits and attention spans.

The younger one is in these high tech days of cell phones, the longer a normal text will look.

I put less than 1 book page in the O.P. and am really sorry to have exceeded your attention span.

Regards
DL

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2019, 05:01:32 PM »
I agree that we need a more progressive tax structure. A wealth tax would be a great idea if a way can be found to implement it. I.e., there needs to be a way to assess people's wealth in order for it to be taxed. But Warren's proposal is far too modest. I recommend taxing 5% of wealth over 10 million, 25% of anything over 100 million, and 50% of anything over a billion.
Daniel
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Online The Latinist

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2019, 05:05:57 PM »
It is not a matter of length, but of the ratio of length to the number of quality ideas. Your OP contains one meaningful idea, really, and a lot of fluff which you evidently intend to be impressive but which is, in fact, meaningless drivel. In my experience, one impresses much more with one's ability to express one's ideas completely and concisely than with rhetorical flourishes, cutesy rhymes, and clichés. I'll wager you'd find people much more receptive if you stated your ideas plainly than you will with this self-indulgent blather.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2019, 05:06:05 PM »
Taxation determines what poverty levels will exist within it’s demographic form.
This is false. (The poor are already not taxed, and the taxes paid by the rich (desultory though they may be) don't currently help the poor become less poor.)

The rest of your argument is spurious.
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Online The Latinist

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2019, 05:10:02 PM »
I agree that we need a more progressive tax structure. A wealth tax would be a great idea if a way can be found to implement it. I.e., there needs to be a way to assess people's wealth in order for it to be taxed. But Warren's proposal is far too modest. I recommend taxing 5% of wealth over 10 million, 25% of anything over 100 million, and 50% of anything over a billion.

I myself would prefer to focus on taxing capital gains as regular income, implementing a massive inheritance tax, ending corporate subsidies and tax loopholes, and implementing a far more progressive income tax structure with a much higher marginal tax rate.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2019, 05:22:35 PM »
I agree that we need a more progressive tax structure. A wealth tax would be a great idea if a way can be found to implement it. I.e., there needs to be a way to assess people's wealth in order for it to be taxed. But Warren's proposal is far too modest. I recommend taxing 5% of wealth over 10 million, 25% of anything over 100 million, and 50% of anything over a billion.

A tax system should seek fairness and not be designed to punish one class more than the other.

That is what we presently have with our value added and sales taxes.

To target our entrepreneurs and innovators and rich is to ask them to go look to some other country for fairness.

Why not just push all people over the poverty line and just have everyone pay the same % of tax?

Regards
DL
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 05:25:22 PM by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2019, 05:27:42 PM »

 Your OP contains one meaningful idea,

Nice that I beat your post by 1.

Regards
DL

Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2019, 05:31:27 PM »
Taxation determines what poverty levels will exist within it’s demographic form.
This is false. (The poor are already not taxed, and the taxes paid by the rich (desultory though they may be) don't currently help the poor become less poor.)

The rest of your argument is spurious.

Child.
Take the tax law, and make it move the little blocks from the extremely high right side, to the really low left side.

Note how few it took to end poverty.

Regards
DL

Offline Tassie Dave

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2019, 06:14:13 PM »
Taxation determines what poverty levels will exist within it’s demographic form.
This is false. (The poor are already not taxed, and the taxes paid by the rich (desultory though they may be) don't currently help the poor become less poor.)

The rest of your argument is spurious.

Child.
Take the tax law, and make it move the little blocks from the extremely high right side, to the really low left side.

Note how few it took to end poverty.

Regards
DL

As a socialist I, of course, want to see more of this.

I am not anti-capitalist. I just would like to see a fairer distribution of wealth. Large mega corporations paying less than '10c in the dollar' tax is criminal. Yet they are allowed to do it legally by exploiting loopholes in the law.

I'd like to see the threshold at which individuals pay tax raised. (i.e first $50,000 tax free) and a higher tax rate for high earners (i.e +$200,000)
Minimum wage should also rise by, at least, inflation or CPI increases. After we first raise it to a much higher rate to begin with. US$20 per hour at a minimum and none of this bullshit where businesses can pay less and have it made up with tips. Tips should be a bonus on top of minimum wage.

and I'd like to see fair tax rates for small businesses to encourage them to employ more people. Large businesses should pay their full tax.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 06:16:50 PM by Tassie Dave »

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2019, 07:30:25 PM »
The Australian government has a deliberate policy of putting people into poverty.  The unemployment benefit for single people is around $490 a fortnight ($35 a day), from which the person has to pay to be presentable for and to get to job interviews (if the person is lucky enough to get a job interview), in addition to day to day costs, such as rent.

Old age pensioners get almost twice as much, if they’re single, and don’t have to bother with the expenses of seeking employment.

The government has much more sympathy for the elderly, which were and are a key demographic in its election.  It refuses to increase the unemployment benefit, despite business groups arguing that it’s needed.  And it would stimulate the economy, which is currently flat, more than the current tax cuts, since low income groups will spend the extra money.  People receiving tax cuts will probably just pay down debt (not necessarily a bad thing) instead of spending it.  Which is what the government is hoping.  That the tax cuts will be spent, and they’ll get some of the money back in revenue, as a result of the discredited Laffer curve.
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Offline superdave

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2019, 08:24:13 PM »
our system is so screwed up an easy fix is impossible.
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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2019, 08:31:53 PM »
I am not anti-capitalist.

Problem is, capitalism necessarily leads to the situation we have now. The rich have both the incentive and the means to get richer, which inevitably pulls wealth away from the poor. A deep divide between the haves and the have-nots is an unavoidable result of capitalism.

That having been said, there are things that are going on today that are both hideously expensive and absolutely positive for humanity, which are going on only because the hyper-rich can afford to do it. Space travel, for example. Governments don't want to pay for it any more, which leaves the field open to the Musks and the Bezoses of the world. That wouldn't have been possible without the capitalistic structures which allowed them to make an absolutely obscene amount of money.
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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2019, 08:37:19 PM »
The poor are already not taxed

Don't forget all the other taxes.

Consider the case of Washington state, which doesn't have an income tax so it jacks up everything else:

If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

 

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