Author Topic: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?  (Read 1648 times)

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Offline Tassie Dave

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2019, 09:19:30 PM »
I am not anti-capitalist.

Problem is, capitalism necessarily leads to the situation we have now. The rich have both the incentive and the means to get richer, which inevitably pulls wealth away from the poor. A deep divide between the haves and the have-nots is an unavoidable result of capitalism.

That having been said, there are things that are going on today that are both hideously expensive and absolutely positive for humanity, which are going on only because the hyper-rich can afford to do it. Space travel, for example. Governments don't want to pay for it any more, which leaves the field open to the Musks and the Bezoses of the world. That wouldn't have been possible without the capitalistic structures which allowed them to make an absolutely obscene amount of money.

I'm not pro-capitalist either. If I had my way we'd scrap the system entirely and start anew, but I know that isn't going to happen.

My "best I can hope for" system is a fairer capitalist system tempered by a bit of socialism with the poorer end of society treated better than they have been.
The rich can still get rich, but with maybe 1 or 2 less zeros on the end of their total worth.

Offline Ah.hell

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2019, 09:50:01 AM »
That was an awful lot of words and florid rhetoric to express the simple idea of a more progressive tax structure.
Is that what he was saying?  As alwasy, I find Gnostics posts too.......labyrinthine to parse meaningfully.

On other subjects.  Wealth taxes have generally proven to be ineffectual.  Either they exempt so much as to not raise revenue or the include to much and are thus impractical.  IE, is a painting wealth?  If so, how is it valued and taxed.  What if the majority of your wealth is in non liquid forms?  If its actually effective, wealth will just leave.

Heavily progressive taxes are a good idea but you have to be a bit careful with them as they really quite heavily on the top wage earners, whose income tends to be more volatile than the rest of us.  CA has this issue and as a result state revenues tend to decrease in bad economic times.  This can be accomodated with good planning, something CA has proven bad at.

Its worth noting that most developed nations with a more progressive social safety net that say, the US, rely on VAT taxes.  Which are somewhat regressive and hit the middle classes harder than the tax structure in the US.

US specific.  I favor starting by eliminating pretty much all deductions from federal income taxes. Then start adjusting the brackets.   I'm fine with more, so long as the rest of the system is simplified.  I think it was the latinist that proposed just eliminating the deductions that effect fewer than some arbitrary number of tax payers.  That would probably be an easier political accomplishment.  I think all income should be treated the same.  Why should it matter that your income is from investments rather than a salary? 

« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 10:02:34 AM by Ah.hell »

Online The Latinist

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2019, 09:51:37 AM »
That was an awful lot of words and florid rhetoric to express the simple idea of a more progressive tax structure.
Is that what he was saying?

Yeah, amidst the fluff, that was is only real idea.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline Ah.hell

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2019, 10:04:14 AM »
That was an awful lot of words and florid rhetoric to express the simple idea of a more progressive tax structure.
Is that what he was saying?

Yeah, amidst the fluff, that was is only real idea.
I like that he says something I basically agree with in a way I can't understand and supported by an argument that I either disagree with or think is just flat out wrong.  Taxes determine poverty?

Offline PANTS!

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2019, 10:19:30 AM »
That was an awful lot of words and florid rhetoric to express the simple idea of a more progressive tax structure.

Apologies, but I do not see it as long.

We do all have our limits and attention spans.

The younger one is in these high tech days of cell phones, the longer a normal text will look.

I put less than 1 book page in the O.P. and am really sorry to have exceeded your attention span.

Regards
DL

"I apologize if you got offended" is a dick move.
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Offline PANTS!

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2019, 10:22:11 AM »
The poor are already not taxed

Don't forget all the other taxes.

Consider the case of Washington state, which doesn't have an income tax so it jacks up everything else:



And fees are not necessarily "taxes" but the poor pays a high proportion of their income to fees as well.
Now where I come from
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Offline PANTS!

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2019, 10:29:15 AM »
That was an awful lot of words and florid rhetoric to express the simple idea of a more progressive tax structure.
Is that what he was saying?  As alwasy, I find Gnostics posts too.......labyrinthine to parse meaningfully.

It seems to me that he's one of those types who is very insecure about how intelligent he appears, right?  Very Oswald Bates.

On other subjects.  Wealth taxes have generally proven to be ineffectual.  Either they exempt so much as to not raise revenue or the include to much and are thus impractical.  IE, is a painting wealth?  If so, how is it valued and taxed.  What if the majority of your wealth is in non liquid forms?  If its actually effective, wealth will just leave.

Heavily progressive taxes are a good idea but you have to be a bit careful with them as they really quite heavily on the top wage earners, whose income tends to be more volatile than the rest of us.  CA has this issue and as a result state revenues tend to decrease in bad economic times.  This can be accomodated with good planning, something CA has proven bad at.

Its worth noting that most developed nations with a more progressive social safety net that say, the US, rely on VAT taxes.  Which are somewhat regressive and hit the middle classes harder than the tax structure in the US.

US specific.  I favor starting by eliminating pretty much all deductions from federal income taxes. Then start adjusting the brackets.   I'm fine with more, so long as the rest of the system is simplified.  I think it was the latinist that proposed just eliminating the deductions that effect fewer than some arbitrary number of tax payers.  That would probably be an easier political accomplishment.  I think all income should be treated the same.  Why should it matter that your income is from investments rather than a salary?

There is an awesome Planet Money podcast that deals with some of these issues. 

The one I really like is making people self assess their assets, with the caveat that the government can buy the asset at the price the owner places on it for taxation value.

One thing they don't discuss is the problem of taxing people with gobs of liquid wealth, and not much in income (or income flexibility).  Think retired person with a nice house in a growing urban area living off a pension.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 10:32:22 AM by PANTS! »
Now where I come from
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-Uptown, Prince 👉

The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds

Offline stands2reason

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2019, 10:42:48 AM »
One thing they don't discuss is the problem of taxing people with gobs of liquid wealth, and not much in income (or income flexibility).  Think retired person with a nice house in a growing urban area living off a pension.

Yes, they discuss this on the episode. The reason why the proposed American version of a wealth tax won't run into the same issue as the EU flavors is that the wealth tax will probably start at tens of millions, as oppose to the much lower threshold.

Offline Ah.hell

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2019, 10:51:30 AM »
That was an awful lot of words and florid rhetoric to express the simple idea of a more progressive tax structure.
Is that what he was saying?

Yeah, amidst the fluff, that was is only real idea.
I've reread the op, he didn't actually even say that.  As far as I can tell all the OP said was, "Check out this link about....." I haven't checked out the link but its either tax policy or inequality generally. 

So, it wasn't actually that long a post, it was a very long post that only said, "check out this link".

Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2019, 11:20:01 AM »
Taxation determines what poverty levels will exist within it’s demographic form.
This is false. (The poor are already not taxed, and the taxes paid by the rich (desultory though they may be) don't currently help the poor become less poor.)

The rest of your argument is spurious.

Child.
Take the tax law, and make it move the little blocks from the extremely high right side, to the really low left side.

Note how few it took to end poverty.

Regards
DL

As a socialist I, of course, want to see more of this.

I am not anti-capitalist. I just would like to see a fairer distribution of wealth. Large mega corporations paying less than '10c in the dollar' tax is criminal. Yet they are allowed to do it legally by exploiting loopholes in the law.

I'd like to see the threshold at which individuals pay tax raised. (i.e first $50,000 tax free) and a higher tax rate for high earners (i.e +$200,000)
Minimum wage should also rise by, at least, inflation or CPI increases. After we first raise it to a much higher rate to begin with. US$20 per hour at a minimum and none of this bullshit where businesses can pay less and have it made up with tips. Tips should be a bonus on top of minimum wage.

and I'd like to see fair tax rates for small businesses to encourage them to employ more people. Large businesses should pay their full tax.

We have the same goal, in a better and fair tax system.

I find it strange though, that a socialist, and I do not really know your definition on that, would want a tax system that is unequal and tries to nail the rich more than the rest of us.

What is wrong, or why do you think it right, that a fair tax law would penalize the rich more than the poor?

Would all socialists not want all people to bear the same % of taxes paid?

Regards
DL

 

Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2019, 11:26:56 AM »
The Australian government has a deliberate policy of putting people into poverty.  The unemployment benefit for single people is around $490 a fortnight ($35 a day), from which the person has to pay to be presentable for and to get to job interviews (if the person is lucky enough to get a job interview), in addition to day to day costs, such as rent.

Old age pensioners get almost twice as much, if they’re single, and don’t have to bother with the expenses of seeking employment.

The government has much more sympathy for the elderly, which were and are a key demographic in its election.  It refuses to increase the unemployment benefit, despite business groups arguing that it’s needed.  And it would stimulate the economy, which is currently flat, more than the current tax cuts, since low income groups will spend the extra money.  People receiving tax cuts will probably just pay down debt (not necessarily a bad thing) instead of spending it.  Which is what the government is hoping.  That the tax cuts will be spent, and they’ll get some of the money back in revenue, as a result of the discredited Laffer curve.

Tax takers being wooed for their vote is a normal thing as most politicians see their first job as to get elected regardless of what their personal views are. They are con men and whores will take advantage of any situation to get elected.

Nice that you recognize what your government and their oligarch owners are really doing.

Regards
DL 

Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2019, 11:29:51 AM »
our system is so screwed up an easy fix is impossible.

That is what your owners wants you to think.

As you can see from my KISS way of looking at things, demographically, there is nothing hard about good governance.

Our owners do not want that and unfortunately have convinced many to think as you do.

Regards
DL

Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2019, 11:38:07 AM »
That was an awful lot of words and florid rhetoric to express the simple idea of a more progressive tax structure.
Is that what he was saying?

Yeah, amidst the fluff, that was is only real idea.
I like that he says something I basically agree with in a way I can't understand and supported by an argument that I either disagree with or think is just flat out wrong.  Taxes determine poverty?

The support and argument is easy to see.

Just visualize the little bit of change required to that graph to end poverty. It is loose change to the rich.

Regards
DL

Offline Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2019, 11:40:39 AM »
That was an awful lot of words and florid rhetoric to express the simple idea of a more progressive tax structure.

Apologies, but I do not see it as long.

We do all have our limits and attention spans.

The younger one is in these high tech days of cell phones, the longer a normal text will look.

I put less than 1 book page in the O.P. and am really sorry to have exceeded your attention span.

Regards
DL

"I apologize if you got offended" is a dick move.

I agree, and apologise for your lack of reading comprehension.

You might have noted the insult.

Regards
DL

Offline PANTS!

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2019, 11:48:31 AM »
One thing they don't discuss is the problem of taxing people with gobs of liquid wealth, and not much in income (or income flexibility).  Think retired person with a nice house in a growing urban area living off a pension.

Yes, they discuss this on the episode. The reason why the proposed American version of a wealth tax won't run into the same issue as the EU flavors is that the wealth tax will probably start at tens of millions, as oppose to the much lower threshold.

Yes.  Thanks for that.  I was very imprecise in my statement.  I should have said that I don't think the solutions they discussed solved the problems effectively.  Sorry.
Now where I come from
We don't let society tell us how it's supposed to be
-Uptown, Prince 👉

The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds

 

personate-rain