Author Topic: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?  (Read 1647 times)

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Online random poet

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2019, 01:25:24 PM »
Would all socialists not want all people to bear the same % of taxes paid?
Kid, you have not a single idea what you are talking about. You don't understand taxation, you don't understand socialism, and I am unconvinced you know what the phrase "governments to impose poverty on us" means.

Not a single socialist would want this. A flat tax rate is what Trump implemented, and the opposite of socialism. A "fair" tax rate is when poor people pay very little percent of their income as tax, and rich people pay quite a high portion of their income.
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Offline Captain Video

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2019, 01:43:03 PM »
A "fair" tax would be a flat consumption tax where purchases made up to the poverty level are tax free with a prebate. You keep every dollar you earn.

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Offline SnarlPatrick

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2019, 01:55:38 PM »
Wealth isn't zero-sum. Redistributing wealth would not make those people who are not currently productive, productive. We do not in fact live in a post-scarcity world or even country. But the redistributive model you are talking about is completely destructive of the wealth-producing mechanism that created the value you are talking about redistributing. And nobody can be trusted with the power of redistribution as it has always ended with crony despotism. Just another"we haven't done socialism right" post. Such arrogance. If only YOU had been Stalin, you'd have figured everything out.
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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2019, 02:31:34 PM »
A "fair" tax would be a flat consumption tax where purchases made up to the poverty level are tax free with a prebate. You keep every dollar you earn.
Define "earn".
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Online The Latinist

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2019, 02:37:40 PM »
A "fair" tax would be a flat consumption tax where purchases made up to the poverty level are tax free with a prebate. You keep every dollar you earn.

I strongly disagree that this would be a "fair" tax.
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Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2019, 03:40:28 PM »
Redistributing wealth would not make those people who are not currently productive, productive.

Oh, I'm sure the rich could adapt to having to work for a living.
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Offline Captain Video

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2019, 03:45:55 PM »
A "fair" tax would be a flat consumption tax where purchases made up to the poverty level are tax free with a prebate. You keep every dollar you earn.
Define "earn".

do you really need a definition?

I don't want to be taxed based on our paycheck, I would rather it be based on what we spend as many state taxes are.

A "fair" tax would be a flat consumption tax where purchases made up to the poverty level are tax free with a prebate. You keep every dollar you earn.

I strongly disagree that this would be a "fair" tax.

yes I am aware of that and i'm sure the socialists will also disagree, I believe you are wrong.

We take money out of poor peoples paychecks right now, money they can not afford regardless of how much of it they get back at a later date. They often have to spend money in order to get this money back by paying for some tax preparer or worse a tax loan (they need the money that bad)

Its confusing and complicated. people here want corporations to float the bill but that wont work,  it ends up hurting the small business who cant afford all the lawyers and tax accountants that the big business can.

For the poor to get a lump sum upfront would be extremely helpful, then you let them decide what to purchase. Uncooked food and other life necessities of coarse would continue to not be taxed.
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Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2019, 03:51:13 PM »
A "fair" tax would be a flat consumption tax where purchases made up to the poverty level are tax free with a prebate. You keep every dollar you earn.

This is brutal to the poor and bad for the state.

The poor spend all their money.  They pay the highest % of income toward the consumption tax.
The rich spend little of their money.  They pay the lowest % of income toward the consumption tax.

And since it's flat, you're limited by the poor's breaking point.  And this isn't going to raise what the public sector requires to keep things 'First World' so you're perpetually taxing everyone as hard as the poor can take.

It maths out as equivalent to a regressive income tax scale which soaks the poor and taxes the rich at like, 2%.

Here's the general pitch for a progressive income tax scale:
Quote
The rationale behind progressive taxation hinges on Marginal Utility (MU) and Marginal Propensity to Consume (MPC).  In a nutshell, ...
  • [MU] ... as income increases, the utility of each additional dollar decreases.  Meaning, you go from 'Food & Shelter' dollars to 'Scotch & Stocks' dollars.   
  • [MPC] ... as income increases, the proportion spent of each additional dollar decreases.  Meaning, 'Food & Shelter' dollars are 100% spent whereas 'Scotch & Stocks' are not.

Re: MU - Shifting tax burden from high-utility to low-utility dollars minimizes individual harm.  And remember, the rich still pay low/no rates on their first $X of income, too.

Re: MPC - Shifting tax burden from high-MPC dollars to low-MPC dollars minimizes economic drag.  Generally, spending has higher associated Velocity of Money thus greater GDP Multiplier effects than investment.  And presently, most businesses are overcapitalized and most people are broke. 

Increasing tax liability as income increases shifts tax burden away from high-utility, high-MPC dollars and towards low-utility, low-MPC dollars in order to minimize negative individual and economic impact.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 03:56:57 PM by Soldier of FORTRAN »
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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2019, 04:06:09 PM »
A "fair" tax would be a flat consumption tax where purchases made up to the poverty level are tax free with a prebate. You keep every dollar you earn.
Define "earn".

do you really need a definition?
Yes.
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Offline Captain Video

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2019, 04:21:04 PM »
A "fair" tax would be a flat consumption tax where purchases made up to the poverty level are tax free with a prebate. You keep every dollar you earn.
Define "earn".

do you really need a definition?
Yes.

well I already did, im sorry you dont see that.

This is a pointless argument in this space. I don't know why I brought it up other than to reaffirm that I do not agree with your bullshit tax system.

I know full well you think mine is bullshit too.

I often wonder how many members of this forum have ever lived below the poverty line or who have themselves been homeless.  I know a few have this experience.
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Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2019, 04:29:43 PM »
I often wonder how many members of this forum have ever lived below the poverty line

This is actually where a lot of my animosity comes from. 

Look at Washington state.  They have no income tax but high consumption taxes.  It fucks the poor, spares the rich.

Consumption Tax-only stuff is a con.  The goal is to exempt the rich of taxation.  To get it done, the poor get screwed and are much worse off.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 04:41:51 PM by Soldier of FORTRAN »
If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2019, 04:40:38 PM »
Washington has no income tax and high consumption taxes, and is the most regressive tax system in the country.

Note: These figures are % of total income (the text saying this in the image is a bit small)



If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2019, 04:44:38 PM »
A "fair" tax would be a flat consumption tax where purchases made up to the poverty level are tax free with a prebate. You keep every dollar you earn.
Define "earn".

do you really need a definition?
Yes.

well I already did, im sorry you dont see that.

This is a pointless argument in this space. I don't know why I brought it up other than to reaffirm that I do not agree with your bullshit tax system.

I know full well you think mine is bullshit too.

I often wonder how many members of this forum have ever lived below the poverty line or who have themselves been homeless.  I know a few have this experience.

I am sorry you had to experience that.  I am sure it was super shitty, and it gave you a different outlook than I have.  By the same token, how does your experience help inform economic policy, especially in light of the math and facts showing your proposed policy as hurting the most people, and massively disproportionately hurting the poor? 
Now where I come from
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Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: Is it moral for our governments to impose poverty on us?
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2019, 04:48:29 PM »
well I already did, im sorry you dont see that.

This is a pointless argument in this space. I don't know why I brought it up other than to reaffirm that I do not agree with your bullshit tax system.

I know full well you think mine is bullshit too.

I often wonder how many members of this forum have ever lived below the poverty line or who have themselves been homeless.  I know a few have this experience.

You've been extensively lied to.  Get mad at the propagandists! Get mad at the rich fucks who hired them!
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 07:00:48 PM by Soldier of FORTRAN »
If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

 

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