Author Topic: Episode #733  (Read 1883 times)

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Offline whaleeater

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Re: Episode #733
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2019, 01:21:29 PM »
Steven has claimed that aboriginal whaling was unsustainable before on the podcast, but is there really any basis for that claim for aboriginal whaling as a whole? I was under the impression that that the largest risk to certain species of endangered whales are climate change, ship collisions (for example, 90% of all northern right whales killed by human activities are from ship collisions) and illegal whaling by states. If you look at the IWC report on whaling in Greenland, you can see that this is something that is heavily regulated also with the help of the self-rule government itself: https://iwc.int/greenland

Offline GodHead

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Re: Episode #733
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2019, 02:04:04 PM »
On the TMT, once again, savage, uncivilized, religious fanaticism is standing in the way of the progress of humanity.

No mountain is sacred. It's just dirt. Your superstitious belief that it is sacred is not deserving of any respect or deference.

And once again Cara disagrees in favour of some bullshit minority. Fucking hell. Her cultural relativism is intolerable.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 02:49:54 PM by GodHead »

Offline stands2reason

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Re: Episode #733
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2019, 02:52:09 PM »

Offline wilko

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Re: Episode #733
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2019, 03:12:50 PM »
On the TMT, once again, savage, uncivilized, religious fanaticism is standing in the way of the progress of humanity.

No mountain is sacred. It's just dirt. Your superstitious belief that it is sacred is not deserving of any respect or deference.

And once again Cara disagrees in favour of some bullshit minority. Fucking hell. Her cultural relativism is intolerable.



I agree with you that no mountain is sacred, but protesters aren't savages or uncivilized.  They live in air conditioned homes, they have access to the Internet, etc.  They are just another NIMBY group.  The fact that they trace their DNA to Native Hawaiian Tribes is inconsequential. And as US citizens they have every right to protest, no matter how illogical their demands are.  I was disappointing with the Rouges for giving their poor arguments more respect than they deserve just because their status as "victimized" minority group.

Offline GodHead

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Re: Episode #733
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2019, 03:28:22 PM »
The beliefs are savage, not necessarily the people holding them.

Offline stands2reason

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Re: Episode #733
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2019, 05:40:45 PM »
Carl Sagan pushed light sail technology, he propelled it to where it is now, a luminary force in a manner of speaking.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #733
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2019, 09:08:13 PM »
Humans destroy any environment they move into. The difference between "indigenous" populations and more recent immigrants is that a new equilibrium has had time to be established. Unfortunately after climate change, it will take millions of years.

A more important difference between indigenous populations and industrialized invaders is that we (industrial societies) have tools that greatly magnify our impact on the environment. Pre-industrial societies may have hunted North America's megafauna to extinction, but they lacked the tools to mine and burn enough carbon to set the world moving toward becoming Venus.

Beavers are inconvenient to humans. They indiscriminately create ponds and wetlands useful to many other species. During drought the water they've sequestered is useful to many species. Beavers did not create Los Angeles or Hoover Dam or Perdue chickens.

When beavers inconvenience humans we do not hesitate to kill them. I think Daniel could concoct a similar management system for destroyers of the environment,  but his targets wouldn't include beavers.

I wish to point out that while I have advocated an end to human procreation (and been thoroughly reviled for it) I have always and ever opposed killing for any reasons whatsoever. I oppose all wars, all capital punishment, and I certainly oppose "culling" the human race.

This morning I was speaking about the TMT and the protests with my kayak guide, this being my morning for kayaking, as an alternative to paddling with the canoe club.

I had not been following the protests, but this was a lesson in judging something from a position of extreme ignorance of the issues:

This issue did not start with the TMT. This issue began with the first telescopes on Mauna Kea. The site is culturally important to the Hawaiians, not because of being "sacred" in the religious sense, but because it is a place that is culturally important. The Hawaiians were a seafaring nation that used the stars for navigation and are not opposed to astronomical science. But they wanted some concessions if their culturally important place was to be used for telescopes. Promises were made, and those promises were broken. (As white folks have broken every other promise we've made to indigenous peoples when we stole their land.) Specifically it was promised that as each telescope reached the end of its useful life it would be de-commissioned and the land returned to its previous state. This has never happened.

The protests now are not because suddenly one more telescope is too many. The protests are the culmination of years of broken promises. The TMT was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Of course the telescope will be built because white folks are in charge and we've never let the legitimate concerns of native peoples get in our way.

When poor people have something and rich people want it, they take it. So it has always been and so it will always be. At least don't pretend that we have a right to take land from other people. We just do it because we can.
Daniel
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Offline whaleeater

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Re: Episode #733
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2019, 10:40:23 PM »
No mountain is sacred. It's just dirt. Your superstitious belief that it is sacred is not deserving of any respect or deference.

The problem with that is that it's not only dirt. The mountain tells the story of centuries of human history and settlement in Hawaii, and is home to 263 archeological sites. I'm guessing that you aren't a christian or religious in any way, but I would imagine that you still find historical cathedrals and mosques like Nortre-Dame and Hagia Sophia worth protecting and preserving. In my culture there was also a belief in sacred mountains, and though our pre-christian religion is now extinct, the mountains are still important to us. On the mountains you'll find 9000 year old rock art and archeological traces of sacrifices and human activity. The mountains are not only culturally significant, but also scientifically as they tell the stories of ancient religions and traditions we have limited knowledge about today.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 10:44:56 PM by whaleeater »

Offline Rai

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Re: Episode #733
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2019, 02:16:29 AM »
Wow, didn't know that Podcast Episodes was such a cesspool of colonial sentiment.

This issue did not start with the TMT. This issue began with the first telescopes on Mauna Kea. The site is culturally important to the Hawaiians, not because of being "sacred" in the religious sense, but because it is a place that is culturally important. The Hawaiians were a seafaring nation that used the stars for navigation and are not opposed to astronomical science. But they wanted some concessions if their culturally important place was to be used for telescopes. Promises were made, and those promises were broken. (As white folks have broken every other promise we've made to indigenous peoples when we stole their land.) Specifically it was promised that as each telescope reached the end of its useful life it would be de-commissioned and the land returned to its previous state. This has never happened.

The protests now are not because suddenly one more telescope is too many. The protests are the culmination of years of broken promises. The TMT was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Of course the telescope will be built because white folks are in charge and we've never let the legitimate concerns of native peoples get in our way.

When poor people have something and rich people want it, they take it. So it has always been and so it will always be. At least don't pretend that we have a right to take land from other people. We just do it because we can.

It is also worth mentioning that Hawaii was an independent nation whose government was overthrown by the US and then it was annexed without the consent of Hawaiians.

Now the colonisers are posturing as enlightened scientists and continuing the eradication of Hawaiian culture. The bottom line is that Hawaiians should be able to decide what happens to their land, full stop. If they don't want a telescope, then the enlightened, wonderful coloniser scientists should not be able to build one on Hawaiian land.

Unless, of course, you believe that native peoples should have no sovereignty over their lands and Westerners can just do anything, anywhere, in which case you are a complete monster.

This is also relevant:
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 09:08:58 AM by Rai »

Offline The Latinist

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Re: Episode #733
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2019, 09:12:56 AM »
It is my understanding that there are several species of whale which are not endangered or threatened and that there is no conservation reason to oppose well-regulated whaling by indigenous tribes (as opposed to commercial whaling). These include the gray, minke and bowhead.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline The Latinist

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Re: Episode #733
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2019, 09:16:48 AM »
The bottom line is that Hawaiians should be able to decide what happens to their land, full stop. If they don't want a telescope, then the enlightened, wonderful coloniser scientists should not be able to build one on Hawaiian land.

I it is my understanding that 78% of Hawaiians and 72% of native Hawaiians now support the TMT.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline Rai

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Re: Episode #733
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2019, 09:26:44 AM »
The bottom line is that Hawaiians should be able to decide what happens to their land, full stop. If they don't want a telescope, then the enlightened, wonderful coloniser scientists should not be able to build one on Hawaiian land.

I it is my understanding that 78% of Hawaiians and 72% of native Hawaiians now support the TMT.

I read it in a couple of places that the survey that gave those numbers had a very questionable methodology

Offline The Latinist

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Re: Episode #733
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2019, 10:06:15 AM »
The bottom line is that Hawaiians should be able to decide what happens to their land, full stop. If they don't want a telescope, then the enlightened, wonderful coloniser scientists should not be able to build one on Hawaiian land.

I it is my understanding that 78% of Hawaiians and 72% of native Hawaiians now support the TMT.

I read it in a couple of places that the survey that gave those numbers had a very questionable methodology

I have seen that claim, but I have not seen any evidence or even arguments to back it up. Mostly it seems to come down to “none of the Hawaiians I know support it, so it must be wrong.”  I’d be happy to read any substantive argument about the pol’s methodology, though.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #733
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2019, 10:38:28 AM »
... The bottom line is that Hawaiians should be able to decide what happens to their land, full stop. ...

I agree with this. But Hawaiians, like any other group or nationality, are diverse, with diverse opinions on pretty much everything. My question, which The Latinist answered above:


I it is my understanding that 78% of Hawaiians and 72% of native Hawaiians now support the TMT.

Would be, "Do the protesters represent Hawaiians as a whole, or are they representing a minority opinion?"

But at least we should recognize that this is not a new concern, nor is it a protest against science. It is the culmination of a long-standing problem.
Daniel
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #733
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2019, 10:47:29 AM »
If the information in the video Rai posted above is accurate, it's a pretty damning indictment of the operators of the existing telescopes, and good reason to stop construction of a new one at least until the others are brought into compliance with existing laws and orders.

ETA: And it's sad that the SGU just covered the fact that there are protests and mentioned the whole "sacred place" thing, without addressing the environmental concerns.
Daniel
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-- Otto von Bismarck

 

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