Author Topic: Ketogenic diets and cancer  (Read 2863 times)

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Online CarbShark

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Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #135 on: September 03, 2019, 01:36:01 PM »
...You have this idea that there is a monolith consensus on the diet heart hypothesis among nutrition experts, as their is with global warming, but that’s false.

There is a general consensus, and there are a few outliers, and there are a few crackpots. You've chosen to cherry-pick the outliers.

What do you base that on? Polling? Surveys? Studies? What are the numbers?

You are just making an assumption based on no real evidence.


Quote

For the most part most doctors haven’t learned and don’t understand the subtleties of nutrition.

This has been debunked. But you keep repeating it because it is the crux of your entire argument.

Did you not see the numerous sources I linked to supporting that argument?

And, no, it’s not the crux of anything. It’s a response to a diversion you raised about doctors being authorities on nutrition.

Quote
It is the height of arrogance to think that you are better equipped to understand the scientific literature on diet better than people who've spent years at university and post-graduate level learning about the human body.

I’ve never claimed that.
Quote
Effectively, that is exactly what you are claiming when you assert that your cited articles prove your hypothesis. The implication is that  doctors have failed to understand the literature, but that you do.

First I have never said prove. These studies support the hypothesis.

Second, no, most mainstream doctors don’t read every single LCHF diet study and review the way I do.



and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #136 on: September 03, 2019, 05:14:48 PM »
...You have this idea that there is a monolith consensus on the diet heart hypothesis among nutrition experts, as their is with global warming, but that’s false.

There is a general consensus, and there are a few outliers, and there are a few crackpots. You've chosen to cherry-pick the outliers.

What do you base that on? Polling? Surveys? Studies? What are the numbers?

You are just making an assumption based on no real evidence.


Quote

For the most part most doctors haven’t learned and don’t understand the subtleties of nutrition.

This has been debunked. But you keep repeating it because it is the crux of your entire argument.

Did you not see the numerous sources I linked to supporting that argument?

And, no, it’s not the crux of anything. It’s a response to a diversion you raised about doctors being authorities on nutrition.

Quote
It is the height of arrogance to think that you are better equipped to understand the scientific literature on diet better than people who've spent years at university and post-graduate level learning about the human body.

I’ve never claimed that.
Quote
Effectively, that is exactly what you are claiming when you assert that your cited articles prove your hypothesis. The implication is that  doctors have failed to understand the literature, but that you do.

First I have never said prove. These studies support the hypothesis.

Second, no, most mainstream doctors don’t read every single LCHF diet study and review the way I do.

Yes, you’re right, most mainstream doctors who have spent years studying physiology, biochemistry and pathology, as well as clinical medicine, don’t read every single LCHF diet study and review the way you do.  They recognise bullshit when they see it, and don’t have your quasi-religious ideological bias to your diet, and don’t feel the need to proselytise it to complete strangers on a very minor sceptical website.
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Offline gmalivuk

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #137 on: September 05, 2019, 08:35:56 AM »

Its the mental burden of every man and his dog having a suggestion as to how they should deal with or approach their situation..

This

That’s one reason I haven’t even been tempted to share this information.

Another is the one guy is a good friend and I’d fear doing this could damage our friendship.

The other friend is being bombarded by all sorts of woo, including people telling her to avoid chemo. I’d be more inclined to share this with her because at least it doesn’t interfere with her treatment.

So, you’ve gone from stating that you’re going to share this ‘information’ to stating that you’re not tempted to share this information’ in just a few days.

At least we’re making some progress.

You understand the concept of past tense, don’t you?

In the past I haven’t been tempted to bring it up.
As long as we're being pedantic twats...

"I haven't been" is not the past tense, it is the present perfect. It means something started being true in the past and continues to be true now or might be true again in the future.

If I say, "That's why I've never seen Star Wars, several pages into a thread I started with my personal review of Star Wars, people would rightly point out the mismatch in my account.
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

Online CarbShark

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #138 on: September 05, 2019, 02:08:27 PM »

Its the mental burden of every man and his dog having a suggestion as to how they should deal with or approach their situation..

This

That’s one reason I haven’t even been tempted to share this information.

Another is the one guy is a good friend and I’d fear doing this could damage our friendship.

The other friend is being bombarded by all sorts of woo, including people telling her to avoid chemo. I’d be more inclined to share this with her because at least it doesn’t interfere with her treatment.

So, you’ve gone from stating that you’re going to share this ‘information’ to stating that you’re not tempted to share this information’ in just a few days.

At least we’re making some progress.

You understand the concept of past tense, don’t you?

In the past I haven’t been tempted to bring it up.
As long as we're being pedantic twats...

"I haven't been" is not the past tense, it is the present perfect. It means something started being true in the past and continues to be true now or might be true again in the future.


OK, so then I stand corrected. I should have said:

That's one reason I had not even been tempted to share this information, until now, when I am tempted to.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline Belgarath

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #139 on: September 05, 2019, 02:17:47 PM »

Quote

For the most part most doctors haven’t learned and don’t understand the subtleties of nutrition.

This has been debunked. But you keep repeating it because it is the crux of your entire argument.

Did you not see the numerous sources I linked to supporting that argument?

And, no, it’s not the crux of anything. It’s a response to a diversion you raised about doctors being authorities on nutrition.


I know how you've linked sources.  I can give you hundreds of signed affidavits attesting to the fact that Trump is the best President EVER, and yet we know it's not true.  Your sources are crap and they don't say what you think they say.

Also, I'm absolutely certain you just strawmanned Daniel's claim.  I don't believe that he said that they were 'authorities' on nutrition, but that they were TRAINED on nutrition when you claimed they knew NOTHING about nutrition.  Please don't do that, it's a disingenuous way to argue.
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Online CarbShark

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #140 on: September 05, 2019, 03:34:05 PM »

Quote

For the most part most doctors haven’t learned and don’t understand the subtleties of nutrition.

This has been debunked. But you keep repeating it because it is the crux of your entire argument.

Did you not see the numerous sources I linked to supporting that argument?

And, no, it’s not the crux of anything. It’s a response to a diversion you raised about doctors being authorities on nutrition.


I know how you've linked sources.  I can give you hundreds of signed affidavits attesting to the fact that Trump is the best President EVER, and yet we know it's not true.  Your sources are crap and they don't say what you think they say.

In other words, you haven't even looked at those linked sources. No, they are not crap and yes they say exactly what I think they say and I think they say exactly what they say.

I'm not sure if your comment about Trump is a red herring or a non-sequitur but the fact remains that I have linked to a variety of quality sources, from mainstream media, essays by experts and peer reviewed articles in reputable journals.

If you have any specific quibbles with any of them, let's here them.

Otherwise your denial of science and good sources is just as bad as Bachfiends.

Quote

Also, I'm absolutely certain you just strawmanned Daniel's claim.  I don't believe that he said that they were 'authorities' on nutrition, but that they were TRAINED on nutrition when you claimed they knew NOTHING about nutrition.  Please don't do that, it's a disingenuous way to argue.

That's no straw man. Daniel is making an argument from authority. I am just pointing that out.

And what's with this "I don't believe he said..." are you too lazy to look one page back? It's very easy.

Hint: Daniel didn't say that. He didn't even use the word trained.

Another hint: I never said they knew nothing (all caps or not) about nutrition. I did say most know very little about diet and nutrition, had little training, and most don't care that much about it. But yes they will say things like eat a healthy diet and hand you a pamphlet or refer you to a dietician or a psychiatrist.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #141 on: September 05, 2019, 04:08:04 PM »

Quote

For the most part most doctors haven’t learned and don’t understand the subtleties of nutrition.

This has been debunked. But you keep repeating it because it is the crux of your entire argument.

Did you not see the numerous sources I linked to supporting that argument?

And, no, it’s not the crux of anything. It’s a response to a diversion you raised about doctors being authorities on nutrition.


I know how you've linked sources.  I can give you hundreds of signed affidavits attesting to the fact that Trump is the best President EVER, and yet we know it's not true.  Your sources are crap and they don't say what you think they say.

In other words, you haven't even looked at those linked sources. No, they are not crap and yes they say exactly what I think they say and I think they say exactly what they say.

I'm not sure if your comment about Trump is a red herring or a non-sequitur but the fact remains that I have linked to a variety of quality sources, from mainstream media, essays by experts and peer reviewed articles in reputable journals.

If you have any specific quibbles with any of them, let's here them.

Otherwise your denial of science and good sources is just as bad as Bachfiends.

Quote

Also, I'm absolutely certain you just strawmanned Daniel's claim.  I don't believe that he said that they were 'authorities' on nutrition, but that they were TRAINED on nutrition when you claimed they knew NOTHING about nutrition.  Please don't do that, it's a disingenuous way to argue.

That's no straw man. Daniel is making an argument from authority. I am just pointing that out.

And what's with this "I don't believe he said..." are you too lazy to look one page back? It's very easy.

Hint: Daniel didn't say that. He didn't even use the word trained.

Another hint: I never said they knew nothing (all caps or not) about nutrition. I did say most know very little about diet and nutrition, had little training, and most don't care that much about it. But yes they will say things like eat a healthy diet and hand you a pamphlet or refer you to a dietician or a psychiatrist.

Well, your sources say one thing, that your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet, is reasonable in the short term (months to a year or so), and you extrapolate them to the long term, many years or decades, declaring them to be best in preventing the development of chronic diseases such as type 2 diabetes, and now cancer.

What we need are long term studies looking at morbidity and mortality with the various diets.  We have one showing that low carbohydrate diets are associated with higher mortality and lower life expectancy, but you reject its findings.
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Online CarbShark

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #142 on: September 05, 2019, 04:15:49 PM »

Well, your sources say one thing, that your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet, is reasonable in the short term (months to a year or so), and you extrapolate them to the long term, many years or decades, declaring them to be best in preventing the development of chronic diseases such as type 2 diabetes, and now cancer.


Try to keep up. We're discussing the links to articles indicating the doctors and medical professionals get inadequate training in diet and nutrition.

This is not the time for your repetition of that same crap. (actually there's never a good time for that, but it's not even on topic at this point.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 07:25:36 PM by CarbShark »
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #143 on: September 05, 2019, 06:04:15 PM »

Well, your sources say one thing, that your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet, is reasonable in the short term (months to a year or so), and you extrapolate them to the long term, many years or decades, declaring them to be best in preventing the development of chronic diseases such as type 2 diabetes, and now cancer.


Try to keep up. We're discussing the links to articles indicating the doctors and medical professionals get inadequate training in diet and nutrition.

This is not the time for your repetition of that same crap. (actually there's never a good time for that, but it's not even on topic at this point.
[/quote]

OK, I stand corrected.  But I made the point that based on my experience of medical training, formal teaching in lectures or tutorials doesn’t cover everything doctors are required to know.  A very large part of medical education is done informally, incidentally almost like an apprenticeship.  All the medical textbooks include long chapters on diet and nutrition, which are required reading.

Doctors in training don’t get examined only on topics they’re exposed to in lectures and tutorials.  I remember from my preclinical training, the lecturer in anatomy didn’t manage to get below the knees, owing to running out of time at the end of the year, but the final examination for anatomy that year included questions on the anatomy of the foot.  We were expected to learn foot anatomy for ourselves.

I don’t feel that the teaching of diet and nutrition at university was inadequate.  And I’ve made the point that all doctors are required to undertake continuing medical education to keep up to date.  If anything, I feel my training in dental medicine was grossly inadequate.  There was just one lecture, and i was sick that day.

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Online CarbShark

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #144 on: September 05, 2019, 07:28:52 PM »

Well, your sources say one thing, that your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet, is reasonable in the short term (months to a year or so), and you extrapolate them to the long term, many years or decades, declaring them to be best in preventing the development of chronic diseases such as type 2 diabetes, and now cancer.


Try to keep up. We're discussing the links to articles indicating the doctors and medical professionals get inadequate training in diet and nutrition.

This is not the time for your repetition of that same crap. (actually there's never a good time for that, but it's not even on topic at this point.

OK, I stand corrected.  But I made the point that based on my experience of medical training, formal teaching in lectures or tutorials doesn’t cover everything doctors are required to know.  A very large part of medical education is done informally, incidentally almost like an apprenticeship.  All the medical textbooks include long chapters on diet and nutrition, which are required reading.

Doctors in training don’t get examined only on topics they’re exposed to in lectures and tutorials.  I remember from my preclinical training, the lecturer in anatomy didn’t manage to get below the knees, owing to running out of time at the end of the year, but the final examination for anatomy that year included questions on the anatomy of the foot.  We were expected to learn foot anatomy for ourselves.

I don’t feel that the teaching of diet and nutrition at university was inadequate.  And I’ve made the point that all doctors are required to undertake continuing medical education to keep up to date.  If anything, I feel my training in dental medicine was grossly inadequate.  There was just one lecture, and i was sick that day.

It's good to know how you feel. Of course that doesn't refute the multiple articles I linked to that contradict your feelings.

It's too bad they didn't survey the doctors about their feelings about their training in diet and nutrition, because they very well may not feel it was inadequate, even though by every objective measure it is inadequate for most doctors at most medical schools.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #145 on: September 05, 2019, 07:59:39 PM »

Well, your sources say one thing, that your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet, is reasonable in the short term (months to a year or so), and you extrapolate them to the long term, many years or decades, declaring them to be best in preventing the development of chronic diseases such as type 2 diabetes, and now cancer.


Try to keep up. We're discussing the links to articles indicating the doctors and medical professionals get inadequate training in diet and nutrition.

This is not the time for your repetition of that same crap. (actually there's never a good time for that, but it's not even on topic at this point.

OK, I stand corrected.  But I made the point that based on my experience of medical training, formal teaching in lectures or tutorials doesn’t cover everything doctors are required to know.  A very large part of medical education is done informally, incidentally almost like an apprenticeship.  All the medical textbooks include long chapters on diet and nutrition, which are required reading.

Doctors in training don’t get examined only on topics they’re exposed to in lectures and tutorials.  I remember from my preclinical training, the lecturer in anatomy didn’t manage to get below the knees, owing to running out of time at the end of the year, but the final examination for anatomy that year included questions on the anatomy of the foot.  We were expected to learn foot anatomy for ourselves.

I don’t feel that the teaching of diet and nutrition at university was inadequate.  And I’ve made the point that all doctors are required to undertake continuing medical education to keep up to date.  If anything, I feel my training in dental medicine was grossly inadequate.  There was just one lecture, and i was sick that day.

It's good to know how you feel. Of course that doesn't refute the multiple articles I linked to that contradict your feelings.

It's too bad they didn't survey the doctors about their feelings about their training in diet and nutrition, because they very well may not feel it was inadequate, even though by every objective measure it is inadequate for most doctors at most medical schools.

But doctors in practice aren’t using the stuff they were exposed to in formal lectures and tutorials at university.  They’re using the stuff they learnt informally, and stuff that was reinforced by experience during practice, and as a result of continuing education.

It’s not called ‘medical practice’ for nothing.  If your doctor is using only the stuff formally taught at medical school, then he or she needs to be struck off the medical registry as quickly as possible.
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Online CarbShark

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Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #146 on: September 05, 2019, 08:07:12 PM »

Well, your sources say one thing, that your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet, is reasonable in the short term (months to a year or so), and you extrapolate them to the long term, many years or decades, declaring them to be best in preventing the development of chronic diseases such as type 2 diabetes, and now cancer.


Try to keep up. We're discussing the links to articles indicating the doctors and medical professionals get inadequate training in diet and nutrition.

This is not the time for your repetition of that same crap. (actually there's never a good time for that, but it's not even on topic at this point.

OK, I stand corrected.  But I made the point that based on my experience of medical training, formal teaching in lectures or tutorials doesn’t cover everything doctors are required to know.  A very large part of medical education is done informally, incidentally almost like an apprenticeship.  All the medical textbooks include long chapters on diet and nutrition, which are required reading.

Doctors in training don’t get examined only on topics they’re exposed to in lectures and tutorials.  I remember from my preclinical training, the lecturer in anatomy didn’t manage to get below the knees, owing to running out of time at the end of the year, but the final examination for anatomy that year included questions on the anatomy of the foot.  We were expected to learn foot anatomy for ourselves.

I don’t feel that the teaching of diet and nutrition at university was inadequate.  And I’ve made the point that all doctors are required to undertake continuing medical education to keep up to date.  If anything, I feel my training in dental medicine was grossly inadequate.  There was just one lecture, and i was sick that day.

It's good to know how you feel. Of course that doesn't refute the multiple articles I linked to that contradict your feelings.

It's too bad they didn't survey the doctors about their feelings about their training in diet and nutrition, because they very well may not feel it was inadequate, even though by every objective measure it is inadequate for most doctors at most medical schools.

But doctors in practice aren’t using the stuff they were exposed to in formal lectures and tutorials at university.  They’re using the stuff they learnt informally, and stuff that was reinforced by experience during practice, and as a result of continuing education.

It’s not called ‘medical practice’ for nothing.  If your doctor is using only the stuff formally taught at medical school, then he or she needs to be struck off the medical registry as quickly as possible.
Well if you’d bothered to look at those articles you’d realize the inadequacy of nutrition education extends to continuing education.

So how are you imagining Drs learn about nutrition? Trial and error? 

That’s how they became experts in blood letting back in the day.


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« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 08:09:33 PM by CarbShark »
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #147 on: September 05, 2019, 08:15:46 PM »
So now it comes out: CarbShark regards doctors as basically modern-day blood-letters. We've already see that he considers himself more qualified to read the medical literature than they are, and that he considers himself more knowledgeable on matters of nutrition than they are. This brings it full circle. He just doesn't think they're good for anything.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #148 on: September 05, 2019, 08:37:36 PM »

Well, your sources say one thing, that your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet, is reasonable in the short term (months to a year or so), and you extrapolate them to the long term, many years or decades, declaring them to be best in preventing the development of chronic diseases such as type 2 diabetes, and now cancer.


Try to keep up. We're discussing the links to articles indicating the doctors and medical professionals get inadequate training in diet and nutrition.

This is not the time for your repetition of that same crap. (actually there's never a good time for that, but it's not even on topic at this point.

OK, I stand corrected.  But I made the point that based on my experience of medical training, formal teaching in lectures or tutorials doesn’t cover everything doctors are required to know.  A very large part of medical education is done informally, incidentally almost like an apprenticeship.  All the medical textbooks include long chapters on diet and nutrition, which are required reading.

Doctors in training don’t get examined only on topics they’re exposed to in lectures and tutorials.  I remember from my preclinical training, the lecturer in anatomy didn’t manage to get below the knees, owing to running out of time at the end of the year, but the final examination for anatomy that year included questions on the anatomy of the foot.  We were expected to learn foot anatomy for ourselves.

I don’t feel that the teaching of diet and nutrition at university was inadequate.  And I’ve made the point that all doctors are required to undertake continuing medical education to keep up to date.  If anything, I feel my training in dental medicine was grossly inadequate.  There was just one lecture, and i was sick that day.

It's good to know how you feel. Of course that doesn't refute the multiple articles I linked to that contradict your feelings.

It's too bad they didn't survey the doctors about their feelings about their training in diet and nutrition, because they very well may not feel it was inadequate, even though by every objective measure it is inadequate for most doctors at most medical schools.

But doctors in practice aren’t using the stuff they were exposed to in formal lectures and tutorials at university.  They’re using the stuff they learnt informally, and stuff that was reinforced by experience during practice, and as a result of continuing education.

It’s not called ‘medical practice’ for nothing.  If your doctor is using only the stuff formally taught at medical school, then he or she needs to be struck off the medical registry as quickly as possible.
Well if you’d bothered to look at those articles you’d realize the inadequacy of nutrition education extends to continuing education.

So how are you imagining Drs learn about nutrition? Trial and error? 

That’s how they became experts in blood letting back in the day.


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Not ‘trial and error.’  Informal teaching, which includes reading a wide range of the literature, including text books, medical journals, and even newspapers.  And the Internet.  Doctor Google mightn’t be very good for the common conditions, but it has been shown to be good for the rare and unusual.

Blood letting was taught formally ‘in the day.’  Not by ‘trial and error.’  George Washington was killed by his physicians letting around 40% of his blood volume to get rid of ‘the toxins circulating in his blood,’ resulting from a possibly minor sore throat.

Doctors often believe nonsense.  The most recent one is the idea that carbohydrates are unnatural and harmful to health.  Low carbohydrate proponent doctors are the modern blood letters.  Blood letters made a good income because their victims patients believed them.  Their modern equivalents are doing the same.
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Online CarbShark

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #149 on: September 05, 2019, 10:32:47 PM »
So now it comes out: CarbShark regards doctors as basically modern-day blood-letters. We've already see that he considers himself more qualified to read the medical literature than they are, and that he considers himself more knowledgeable on matters of nutrition than they are. This brings it full circle. He just doesn't think they're good for anything.

No no no.

I am equating bachfiends alleged medical experience, practice and approach as modern day blood letting.

I would argue I am more capable to read and comprehend medical literature than he and am more knowledgeable in matters of nutrition than he.

That he isn’t good for anything.



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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

 

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