Author Topic: Ketogenic diets and cancer  (Read 1983 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Belgarath

  • Forum Sugar Daddy
  • Technical Administrator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 11879
Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2019, 03:50:33 PM »
And that last quote from yourself in the hypothetical discussion is precisely why you're an asshole and should feel ashamed of yourself.  It's not promising and it's not even real.

You're right about your criticism of my post above, however.  You're not Burzynski.  You're just the guy who tells his friend 'oh it's promising treatment, there are promising studies, but they aren't conclusive.  Not saying you should and not saying you shouldn't, just putting the information out there......'

Bet you a LOT of money you don't share with them the studies that COUNTER INDICATE restricting Glucose.  (Now you're going to tell me how there aren't any of those)

BTW, I agree with you 100% Harry, and even though CarbShark says he agrees too, he demonstrated with his hypothetical quote that he really doesn't.



#non-belief denialist

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 11750
Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2019, 04:02:46 PM »
Bet you a LOT of money you don't share with them the studies that COUNTER INDICATE restricting Glucose.  (Now you're going to tell me how there aren't any of those)

No. I'm going to ask you for a citation from a peer reviewed journal. Shouldn't be too hard to find if they're there.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline daniel1948

  • Isn’t a
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 8812
  • I'd rather be paddling
Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2019, 04:17:39 PM »
On another point, I strongly discourage ANYONE from giving unsolicited advice to any person with a serious illness.
People in that situation are dealing with quackery left and right and they are utterly exhausted in fending off every intellectually arrogant kook they know who just HAS to say something because they know this one weird trick will up their chances of survival.
Dont add to that pressure. Dont make them dread speaking to you. Just be there. If you know them well enough, maybe ask them how they are getting along with their doctor? Ask what kind of treatment they are getting MAYBE?
Dont be the asshole that gives them advice other than "Listen to your doctor" or "I hear this doctor is very well regarded, heres his number."
And if you do recommend someone, dont hound them about it.

Even if you are a doctor, you arent THEIR doctor (actually, no MD really needs me to say that)

You are not their saviour.

If they die, it has nothing to do with you for better or worse.

Leave sick people alone.

But the kind of person who needs to hear this will ignore it because they overestimate their own intelligence and feel the need to flex it at people.

The problem is that it's really hard for a True Believer not to push his or her OneTrueAnswerToEverything on all her/his friends, relatives, co-workers, etc. Whether it's a diet or a religion or a political party, if you are a True Believer you just really want all your friends to hear the Good News that there's an Answer.
Daniel
----------------
"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline random poet

  • That's bullshit!
  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2112
  • On n'a jamais le temps, le temps nous a.
    • I have a LJ
Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2019, 04:23:50 PM »
You've officially gone from "cutting carbs is a better diet" to "cutting carbs cures cancer."

You are off the deep end. (And you are fighting the lifeguard.)
Aujourd'hui j'ai vu un facteur joyeux.

Offline Belgarath

  • Forum Sugar Daddy
  • Technical Administrator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 11879
Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2019, 04:24:45 PM »
Bet you a LOT of money you don't share with them the studies that COUNTER INDICATE restricting Glucose.  (Now you're going to tell me how there aren't any of those)

No. I'm going to ask you for a citation from a peer reviewed journal. Shouldn't be too hard to find if they're there.

See that's the difference between us.  I actually read and understand what the experts say.  You think you're better than the experts with your multi-hour pubmed search and misrepresentation of the data.
#non-belief denialist

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 11750
Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2019, 04:32:55 PM »
On another point, I strongly discourage ANYONE from giving unsolicited advice to any person with a serious illness.
People in that situation are dealing with quackery left and right and they are utterly exhausted in fending off every intellectually arrogant kook they know who just HAS to say something because they know this one weird trick will up their chances of survival.
Dont add to that pressure. Dont make them dread speaking to you. Just be there. If you know them well enough, maybe ask them how they are getting along with their doctor? Ask what kind of treatment they are getting MAYBE?
Dont be the asshole that gives them advice other than "Listen to your doctor" or "I hear this doctor is very well regarded, heres his number."
And if you do recommend someone, dont hound them about it.

Even if you are a doctor, you arent THEIR doctor (actually, no MD really needs me to say that)

You are not their saviour.

If they die, it has nothing to do with you for better or worse.

Leave sick people alone.

But the kind of person who needs to hear this will ignore it because they overestimate their own intelligence and feel the need to flex it at people.

The problem is that it's really hard for a True Believer not to push his or her OneTrueAnswerToEverything on all her/his friends, relatives, co-workers, etc. Whether it's a diet or a religion or a political party, if you are a True Believer you just really want all your friends to hear the Good News that there's an Answer.


I do not promote LCHF diet to anyone who doesn’t ask (except here and a few other science, skeptical or medically oriented forums). If someone asks how I lost weight or brings it up I will discuss it.

This thread began because I am considering providing this information to two people for whom it might help and wouldn’t harm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 04:39:05 PM by CarbShark »
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 11750
Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2019, 04:34:49 PM »
Bet you a LOT of money you don't share with them the studies that COUNTER INDICATE restricting Glucose.  (Now you're going to tell me how there aren't any of those)

No. I'm going to ask you for a citation from a peer reviewed journal. Shouldn't be too hard to find if they're there.

See that's the difference between us.  I actually read and understand what the experts say.  You think you're better than the experts with your multi-hour pubmed search and misrepresentation of the data.


I’m sure there are other differences.

I read and understand (mostly) what’s in the peer reviewed articles in journals.

From what I can tell you don’t read any of those.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1915
Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2019, 05:45:23 PM »
On another point, I strongly discourage ANYONE from giving unsolicited advice to any person with a serious illness.
People in that situation are dealing with quackery left and right and they are utterly exhausted in fending off every intellectually arrogant kook they know who just HAS to say something because they know this one weird trick will up their chances of survival.
Dont add to that pressure. Dont make them dread speaking to you. Just be there. If you know them well enough, maybe ask them how they are getting along with their doctor? Ask what kind of treatment they are getting MAYBE?
Dont be the asshole that gives them advice other than "Listen to your doctor" or "I hear this doctor is very well regarded, heres his number."
And if you do recommend someone, dont hound them about it.

Even if you are a doctor, you arent THEIR doctor (actually, no MD really needs me to say that)

You are not their saviour.

If they die, it has nothing to do with you for better or worse.

Leave sick people alone.

But the kind of person who needs to hear this will ignore it because they overestimate their own intelligence and feel the need to flex it at people.

The problem is that it's really hard for a True Believer not to push his or her OneTrueAnswerToEverything on all her/his friends, relatives, co-workers, etc. Whether it's a diet or a religion or a political party, if you are a True Believer you just really want all your friends to hear the Good News that there's an Answer.


I do not promote LCHF diet to anyone who doesn’t ask (except here and a few other science, skeptical or medically oriented forums). If someone asks how I lost weight or brings it up I will discuss it.

This thread began because I am considering providing this information to two people for whom it might help and wouldn’t harm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You certainly fulfill my definition of a proselytiser for your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet when you admit that you promote it unasked.

Are you certain that your diet wouldn’t harm people who are already sick from cancer?  You did read the dietary advice from the MD Anderson Cancer Center (one of America’s premier cancer hospitals) which noted that some cancers grow faster with high fat diets?

Even if some cancers are dependent on glucose for metabolism and survival, even on a low carbohydrate ketogenic diet, there’s still glucose circulating in the bloodstream.  Glucose dependent tumour cells are still going to get their glucose regardless.  Actually, in your notorious block dumped articles, there was one which referred to a case series of 2 from the early 20th century concerning 2 women with cancer who were given an insulin overdose in order to treat a psychiatric disorder, which apparently caused the cancers to regress.  My comments concerning this are: 1.  There’s a difference between a low carbohydrate diet and deliberately inducing a hypoglycaemic coma with an overdose of insulin.  2.  The patients might not have had cancer in the first place.

Even if your diet has a beneficial effect in some cancers, it’s likely to be similar to chemotherapy.  Cancers as they progress develop a plethora of mutations progressively with the formation of numerous clones of cancer cells, some dividing faster, some spreading more quickly, some more dependent on glucose, some less, etc.  As with cancer chemotherapy, if your diet is effective, it will kill the most susceptible cancer cells, reducing the cancer burden, but leaving the resistant cancer cells, which will then grow and divide, reforming the original tumour mass.  Like chemotherapy, your diet might add a little time.  Perhaps a few months.

As I’ve noted, by the time a cancer is apparent, it’s already around 3/4 along its course from initiation to death, by which time it’s not just one cancer, it’s many.

It would be more useful to prevent cancers before they actually develop, or at least in their very early stages.  Your diet could prevent cancer, but the long term studies necessary to know just aren’t available, a point I’ve made to you repeatedly in response to your proselytising.
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline Belgarath

  • Forum Sugar Daddy
  • Technical Administrator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 11879
Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2019, 05:59:26 PM »
I still can't figure out why an Oncologist and the Mayo Clinic are wrong.  Let me guess.  'Big Sugar'  MIRITE?

#non-belief denialist

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 11750
Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2019, 06:24:40 PM »
On another point, I strongly discourage ANYONE from giving unsolicited advice to any person with a serious illness.
People in that situation are dealing with quackery left and right and they are utterly exhausted in fending off every intellectually arrogant kook they know who just HAS to say something because they know this one weird trick will up their chances of survival.
Dont add to that pressure. Dont make them dread speaking to you. Just be there. If you know them well enough, maybe ask them how they are getting along with their doctor? Ask what kind of treatment they are getting MAYBE?
Dont be the asshole that gives them advice other than "Listen to your doctor" or "I hear this doctor is very well regarded, heres his number."
And if you do recommend someone, dont hound them about it.

Even if you are a doctor, you arent THEIR doctor (actually, no MD really needs me to say that)

You are not their saviour.

If they die, it has nothing to do with you for better or worse.

Leave sick people alone.

But the kind of person who needs to hear this will ignore it because they overestimate their own intelligence and feel the need to flex it at people.

The problem is that it's really hard for a True Believer not to push his or her OneTrueAnswerToEverything on all her/his friends, relatives, co-workers, etc. Whether it's a diet or a religion or a political party, if you are a True Believer you just really want all your friends to hear the Good News that there's an Answer.


I do not promote LCHF diet to anyone who doesn’t ask (except here and a few other science, skeptical or medically oriented forums). If someone asks how I lost weight or brings it up I will discuss it.

This thread began because I am considering providing this information to two people for whom it might help and wouldn’t harm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You certainly fulfill my definition of a proselytiser for your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet when you admit that you promote it unasked.

Are you certain that your diet wouldn’t harm people who are already sick from cancer?  You did read the dietary advice from the MD Anderson Cancer Center (one of America’s premier cancer hospitals) which noted that some cancers grow faster with high fat diets?

I think that's a mischaracterization of the actual evidence.
Quote
Even if some cancers are dependent on glucose for metabolism and survival, even on a low carbohydrate ketogenic diet, there’s still glucose circulating in the bloodstream.  Glucose dependent tumour cells are still going to get their glucose regardless.

Perhaps. They hypothesis is that as cancer cells are insulin sensitive, and put out more insulin receptors than nearly any other kind of cell, that high insulin levels provide them an unlimited supply of glucose. But significantly lower insulin levels, and in particular no insulin spikes, will reduce (not eliminate) a significant proportion of the glucose taken in by cancer cells.
Quote
Actually, in your notorious block dumped articles, there was one which referred to a case series of 2 from the early 20th century concerning 2 women with cancer who were given an insulin overdose in order to treat a psychiatric disorder, which apparently caused the cancers to regress.  My comments concerning this are: 1.  There’s a difference between a low carbohydrate diet and deliberately inducing a hypoglycaemic coma with an overdose of insulin.  2.  The patients might not have had cancer in the first place.

Providing links to articles in peer reviewed scientific journals is notorious only in your mind. I think you picked the weakest point in the entire collection of articles, so nice cherry picking. Did you reach the rest of that article?


Quote
Even if your diet has a beneficial effect in some cancers, it’s likely to be similar to chemotherapy. 

Maybe not, maybe not. I don't think anyone is saying that's the case in humans. (There have been animal studies that have found that to be the case). I also don't any anyone would or should do a RCT to determine that.

All of these papers are based on using LCHF diets with traditional and standard therapies, like Chemo.
Quote

Cancers as they progress develop a plethora of mutations progressively with the formation of numerous clones of cancer cells, some dividing faster, some spreading more quickly, some more dependent on glucose, some less, etc.  As with cancer chemotherapy, if your diet is effective, it will kill the most susceptible cancer cells, reducing the cancer burden, but leaving the resistant cancer cells, which will then grow and divide, reforming the original tumour mass.  Like chemotherapy, your diet might add a little time.  Perhaps a few months.

You could say that about any cancer treatment, or, for that matter, any treatment of any infectious disease. 

In this case the hope is that the reduced fuel for the cancer cells will give chemo, radiation and other therapies the upper hand.
Quote
As I’ve noted, by the time a cancer is apparent, it’s already around 3/4 along its course from initiation to death, by which time it’s not just one cancer, it’s many.

I think that's an oversimplification, based on outdated information.

But, even if true, this strategy works on a cellular level metabolically. If it slows growth and reduces available energy to every cancer cell then it will work on single cells or huge tumors. It would potentially be beneficial for any time cancer cells are present.


Quote
It would be more useful to prevent cancers before they actually develop, or at least in their very early stages.  Your diet could prevent cancer, but the long term studies necessary to know just aren’t available, a point I’ve made to you repeatedly in response to your proselytising.

If that's the case then I'm much less likely to get cancer than any of my carb eating relatives.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 11750
Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2019, 06:26:25 PM »
I still can't figure out why an Oncologist and the Mayo Clinic are wrong.  Let me guess.  'Big Sugar'  MIRITE?

I won't guess. I just don't know. Why don't you ask them?
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1915
Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2019, 06:59:41 PM »
CarbShark,

Your notorious block dumped list of selected articles is a desperate attempt to shift your responsibility to read the articles critically and discover all their caveats and flaws.  And all of them have caveats and flaws. 

I don’t have the time to go through the articles, and list them for you.  My lack of time doesn’t mean you’re right, and your diet is effective, either in treating advanced cancer or preventing cancer developing.

For that, you need actual studies, either long term observational studies of large populations on your diet, showing lower mortality and morbidity (including a reduced incidence of cancer)’ or the survival of patients with cancer on your diet compared to controls (you’d need at least one study for each type of cancer - there’s many types of cancer.  Lung cancer for example includes squamous cell carcinoma, adenocarcinoma, small cell carcinoma...)

The studies just don’t exist.  Incidentally, high fat diets are associated with an increased risk of prostatic carcinoma, perhaps (some studies show an increased risk, some don’t).  It just illustrates that there’s no single article, or selected list of article, that will give a definite answer.
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline daniel1948

  • Isn’t a
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 8812
  • I'd rather be paddling
Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2019, 07:00:34 PM »
I still can't figure out why an Oncologist and the Mayo Clinic are wrong.  Let me guess.  'Big Sugar'  MIRITE?

It's because they don't understand that an educated layman with no medical training, spending two hours on PubMed, gains a far deeper understanding of the science than physicians with years of specialized medical training.

It's either that, or they're all in a grand conspiracy to keep us all sick so that they can sell us drugs. (The same friend of mine I mentioned in another thread, who refuses to read Shakespeare because he's a DWM, actually believes this.)
Daniel
----------------
"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 11750
Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2019, 07:16:34 PM »
I still can't figure out why an Oncologist and the Mayo Clinic are wrong.  Let me guess.  'Big Sugar'  MIRITE?

It's because they don't understand that an educated layman with no medical training, spending two hours on PubMed, gains a far deeper understanding of the science than physicians with years of specialized medical training.

It's either that, or they're all in a grand conspiracy to keep us all sick so that they can sell us drugs. (The same friend of mine I mentioned in another thread, who refuses to read Shakespeare because he's a DWM, actually believes this.)

Those are not my claims at all. It sounds like you're arguing against someone else making a different point than dealing with the argument here and now.

Specifically, there have been three experts linked to here, none in peer reviewed scientific journals, and each one of them made specific arguments that are demonstrably false.

Maybe that's why their conclusions are different than most of the researches cited, because they are mistaken about some fairly basic facts about the issue. Or maybe it's just bias.

I don't know, but don't attribute claims or arguments to me that I'm not making.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1915
Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2019, 07:24:33 PM »
I still can't figure out why an Oncologist and the Mayo Clinic are wrong.  Let me guess.  'Big Sugar'  MIRITE?

It's because they don't understand that an educated layman with no medical training, spending two hours on PubMed, gains a far deeper understanding of the science than physicians with years of specialized medical training.

It's either that, or they're all in a grand conspiracy to keep us all sick so that they can sell us drugs. (The same friend of mine I mentioned in another thread, who refuses to read Shakespeare because he's a DWM, actually believes this.)

Those are not my claims at all. It sounds like you're arguing against someone else making a different point than dealing with the argument here and now.

Specifically, there have been three experts linked to here, none in peer reviewed scientific journals, and each one of them made specific arguments that are demonstrably false.

Maybe that's why their conclusions are different than most of the researches cited, because they are mistaken about some fairly basic facts about the issue. Or maybe it's just bias.

I don't know, but don't attribute claims or arguments to me that I'm not making.

CarbShark,

You’re a peer review fetishist.  A peer reviewed article, even in a reputable journal, doesn’t mean it’s right.  It just means it’s not obviously wrong, at least not to the 2 or 3 anonymous reviewers, who may have their own conflicts of interests. 

Whether a peer reviewed article actually turns out to be valid, or even plausible, only becomes apparent after the lapse of time, with more studies and more papers.

You’re giving medical advice on the basis of your ideological bias to your diet, lack of the required scientific and medical knowledge, and general ignorance.
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

 

personate-rain