Author Topic: Ketogenic diets and cancer  (Read 1922 times)

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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #165 on: September 07, 2019, 03:31:11 PM »
A small aside, the new doco, "Fat a Documentary" has a bit to say on the therapeutic use of ketogenic diets for medical issues other than cancer; diabetes and epilepsy in particular.

Well, the evidence that ketogenic diets are any good for any specific type of cancer is non-existent.  Ketogenic diets have been long accepted for refractory epilepsy, particularly in children (there’s good evidence that it works).  And I accept that it should be easier to manage diabetes with a low carbohydrate, in particular low sugar, diet.  Nutritional Kerosins with diabetes isn’t necessary.

So that’s the three conditions you’ve mentioned.  Any others?
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #166 on: September 07, 2019, 05:03:48 PM »
Well, the evidence that ketogenic diets are any good for any specific type of cancer is non-existent.

That's not correct.

There is evidence that ketogenic diets are good for several specific types of cancer. The evidence is preliminary and not strong, but to say it's non-existent is wrong.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #167 on: September 07, 2019, 05:45:29 PM »
Well, the evidence that ketogenic diets are any good for any specific type of cancer is non-existent.

That's not correct.

There is evidence that ketogenic diets are good for several specific types of cancer. The evidence is preliminary and not strong, but to say it's non-existent is wrong.

Which ‘several specific types of cancers?’  And what is the nature of the evidence?  Anecdotes?  Case reports?  Well designed clinical trials, with patients matched for stage on ketogenic or standard diet arms?

You haven’t responded to my comment that your (re)search (on the Internet) for information on diet and nutrient is very substandard, despite your claiming that your knowledge is better than mine, despite my 6 years of medical training at university and decades of clinical practice.

You still deny that you wrote that excess protein intake is shown by an increase in blood sugar?  If your blood sugar level doesn’t increase, then you’re not consuming excessive protein?  And that excessive protein is converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis, which is the reason why in ketogenic diets, protein intake is restricted to 20% of calories - 400 kcal on a 2000 kcal/day diet,  100 g/day, which is more than the recommended 0.75 g/kg body weight per day minimum).

You’re not as informed as you think.
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Offline CarbShark

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Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #168 on: September 07, 2019, 06:04:18 PM »
Well, the evidence that ketogenic diets are any good for any specific type of cancer is non-existent.

That's not correct.

There is evidence that ketogenic diets are good for several specific types of cancer. The evidence is preliminary and not strong, but to say it's non-existent is wrong.

Which ‘several specific types of cancers?’  And what is the nature of the evidence?  Anecdotes?  Case reports?  Well designed clinical trials, with patients matched for stage on ketogenic or standard diet arms?
I refer you to the links in the OP.
Quote

You haven’t responded to my comment that your (re)search (on the Internet) for information on diet and nutrient is very substandard, despite your claiming that your knowledge is better than mine, despite my 6 years of medical training at university and decades of clinical practice.

Because it’s not worthy of a response.


Quote
You still deny that you wrote that excess protein intake is shown by an increase in blood sugar? 

Never denied that. It was your inaccurate and incomplete description of what I said that I disputed.


« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 06:08:47 PM by CarbShark »
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #169 on: September 07, 2019, 06:22:53 PM »
Well, the evidence that ketogenic diets are any good for any specific type of cancer is non-existent.

That's not correct.

There is evidence that ketogenic diets are good for several specific types of cancer. The evidence is preliminary and not strong, but to say it's non-existent is wrong.

Which ‘several specific types of cancers?’  And what is the nature of the evidence?  Anecdotes?  Case reports?  Well designed clinical trials, with patients matched for stage on ketogenic or standard diet arms?
I refer you to the links in the OP.
Quote

You haven’t responded to my comment that your (re)search (on the Internet) for information on diet and nutrient is very substandard, despite your claiming that your knowledge is better than mine, despite my 6 years of medical training at university and decades of clinical practice.

Because it’s not worthy of a response.


Quote
You still deny that you wrote that excess protein intake is shown by an increase in blood sugar? 

Never denied that. It was your inaccurate and incomplete description of what I said that I disputed.

So your evidence for the efficacy of ketogenic diets with specific cancers doesn’t even get to the level of anecdotes?  Just animal models, in vitro studies of cancer cells and studies showing that cancer patients can tolerate ketogenic diets?  Any studies showing that survival of cancer patients is increased on ketogenic diets?

How was my description of what you claimed about excessive protein intake inaccurate or incomplete?  For a start, you were confused about glycaemic score and insulin score, and still managed to get the insulin score of steak wrong, despite correcting yourself.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #170 on: September 07, 2019, 07:11:28 PM »
Well, the evidence that ketogenic diets are any good for any specific type of cancer is non-existent.

That's not correct.

There is evidence that ketogenic diets are good for several specific types of cancer. The evidence is preliminary and not strong, but to say it's non-existent is wrong.

Which ‘several specific types of cancers?’  And what is the nature of the evidence?  Anecdotes?  Case reports?  Well designed clinical trials, with patients matched for stage on ketogenic or standard diet arms?
I refer you to the links in the OP.
Quote

You haven’t responded to my comment that your (re)search (on the Internet) for information on diet and nutrient is very substandard, despite your claiming that your knowledge is better than mine, despite my 6 years of medical training at university and decades of clinical practice.

Because it’s not worthy of a response.


Quote
You still deny that you wrote that excess protein intake is shown by an increase in blood sugar? 

Never denied that. It was your inaccurate and incomplete description of what I said that I disputed.

So your evidence for the efficacy of ketogenic diets with specific cancers doesn’t even get to the level of anecdotes?  Just animal models, in vitro studies of cancer cells and studies showing that cancer patients can tolerate ketogenic diets?  Any studies showing that survival of cancer patients is increased on ketogenic diets?


Read all the linked articles.

Again you you said the evidence was not existent. There is evidence. It exists. It’s preliminary and we need more evidence.

Quote
How was my description of what you claimed about excessive protein intake inaccurate or incomplete?  For a start, you were confused about glycaemic score and insulin score, and still managed to get the insulin score of steak wrong, despite correcting yourself.

I immediately corrected my error on those two indexes.

I never claimed that I could tell if someone was eating excess protein by BG levels. That Is a mischaracterization.

If you’re on a LCHF diet and your blood sugar rises inexplicably excess protein may be the cause, but there could also be other causes. Carb consumption; release of glycogen; the dawn effect.






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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #171 on: September 07, 2019, 07:29:48 PM »
Well, the evidence that ketogenic diets are any good for any specific type of cancer is non-existent.

That's not correct.

There is evidence that ketogenic diets are good for several specific types of cancer. The evidence is preliminary and not strong, but to say it's non-existent is wrong.

Which ‘several specific types of cancers?’  And what is the nature of the evidence?  Anecdotes?  Case reports?  Well designed clinical trials, with patients matched for stage on ketogenic or standard diet arms?
I refer you to the links in the OP.
Quote

You haven’t responded to my comment that your (re)search (on the Internet) for information on diet and nutrient is very substandard, despite your claiming that your knowledge is better than mine, despite my 6 years of medical training at university and decades of clinical practice.

Because it’s not worthy of a response.


Quote
You still deny that you wrote that excess protein intake is shown by an increase in blood sugar? 

Never denied that. It was your inaccurate and incomplete description of what I said that I disputed.

So your evidence for the efficacy of ketogenic diets with specific cancers doesn’t even get to the level of anecdotes?  Just animal models, in vitro studies of cancer cells and studies showing that cancer patients can tolerate ketogenic diets?  Any studies showing that survival of cancer patients is increased on ketogenic diets?


Read all the linked articles.

Again you you said the evidence was not existent. There is evidence. It exists. It’s preliminary and we need more evidence.

Quote
How was my description of what you claimed about excessive protein intake inaccurate or incomplete?  For a start, you were confused about glycaemic score and insulin score, and still managed to get the insulin score of steak wrong, despite correcting yourself.

I immediately corrected my error on those two indexes.

I never claimed that I could tell if someone was eating excess protein by BG levels. That Is a mischaracterization.

If you’re on a LCHF diet and your blood sugar rises inexplicably excess protein may be the cause, but there could also be other causes. Carb consumption; release of glycogen; the dawn effect.






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I’ll quote you:

Excess protein consumption can be detected on a LC diet by a rise in blood glucose.  When that happens (assuming minimal carb consumption) your body has enough protein for replenishment; enough protein for any muscle building; enough protein for sufficient gluconeogenesis; and any additional protein is also converted to glucose, raising your blood sugar.  But, if your blood sugar remains moderate on a LCHF diet, then you are not consuming excess protein.’

But actually, any excess protein not needed for replenishing tissue proteins, forming new protein, or gluconeogenesis is burned, directly or indirectly.

Excessive protein intake is to be avoided because it may increase the risk of heart and renal failure, and in large amounts is poisonous since the metabolites of amino acids can be toxic.

You corrected yourself only after being challenged.  And you didn’t correct yourself regarding the insulin score of steak.  And you still didn’t correct your misconception that all excess protein is converted to glucose.  Reply #1678 is the important one:

https://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,43212.1665.html

And despite my noting that all excess protein can’t be converted to glucose.  Two amino acids are solely ketogenic, and 5 can be either ketogenic or glucogenic.

You’re showing all the signs of a troll with your quasi-religious obsession with your diet.  The evidence that ketogenic diets are beneficial isn’t ‘good.’  It’s piss poor.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 08:05:06 PM by bachfiend »
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #172 on: September 07, 2019, 08:29:36 PM »
You’re asking me to correct things where I was correct. Or the thing I’ve already corrected.

It seems that all you want to talk about is me. Get a life.


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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #173 on: September 07, 2019, 09:24:41 PM »
You’re asking me to correct things where I was correct. Or the thing I’ve already corrected.

It seems that all you want to talk about is me. Get a life.


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Well, you weren’t correct.  And you didn’t correct your claim that steak rates high in the insulin score.  It doesn’t.  It ranks very highly in ‘area under the curve for insulin’/‘area under the curve for glucose,’ which disproves your claim.

I bring it up because you’ve slandered (or libelled me) regarding my knowledge of diet and nutrition, claiming that you’re much more knowledgeable and informed, even claiming you’ve done a ton of research in diet and nutrition.  Which you obviously haven’t.  You’ve searched the Internet for items which you think, but actually don’t, confirm your quasi-religious belief that your diet is ‘best.’

You’re a troll, obsessed with nonsense.

If I’m obsessed with anything, it’s your persistent posting of pseudoscience on a very minor sceptical blog.  If you desist, so will I.  It’s a waste of my time.

« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 09:40:55 PM by bachfiend »
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