Author Topic: Ketogenic diets and cancer  (Read 1982 times)

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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2019, 07:42:42 PM »
I am not providing medical advice.

There are worse fetishes to have on a skeptical forum.

I know the strength and weaknesses of peer reviewed articles in scientific journals.

What you need to watch out for is your assumption that anything that disagrees with what you “know “ is wrong.


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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2019, 07:50:29 PM »
CarbShark,

To put it another way.  What type of cancers do your two friends have?  What stage of clinical progression?  I gather one of them is stage 4.  There’s many different types of cancer.

Where are your studies showing the results of your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet on the specific cancers your friends have?  Unless you have the studies, you’re giving medical advice out of ignorance.  You might be causing harm without benefit.  Adopting a ketogenic diet isn’t without side effects.  Not something to be done lightly.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2019, 07:58:28 PM »
I am not giving medical advice


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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2019, 08:43:44 PM »
I still can't figure out why an Oncologist and the Mayo Clinic are wrong.  Let me guess.  'Big Sugar'  MIRITE?

It's because they don't understand that an educated layman with no medical training, spending two hours on PubMed, gains a far deeper understanding of the science than physicians with years of specialized medical training.

It's either that, or they're all in a grand conspiracy to keep us all sick so that they can sell us drugs. (The same friend of mine I mentioned in another thread, who refuses to read Shakespeare because he's a DWM, actually believes this.)

Those are not my claims at all. It sounds like you're arguing against someone else making a different point than dealing with the argument here and now.

Specifically, there have been three experts linked to here, none in peer reviewed scientific journals, and each one of them made specific arguments that are demonstrably false.

Maybe that's why their conclusions are different than most of the researches cited, because they are mistaken about some fairly basic facts about the issue. Or maybe it's just bias.

I don't know, but don't attribute claims or arguments to me that I'm not making.

You have claimed on numerous occasions that the medical establishment does not understand the science of nutrition. You have posted links to various papers, and you have not explicitly stated, but you have implied, that based on your reading of these papers you understand the science of nutrition better than the entire American medical establishment, whose recommendations differ from yours.

This was the basis for my satirical quip above.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2019, 08:44:41 PM »
I am not providing medical advice.

There are worse fetishes to have on a skeptical forum.

I know the strength and weaknesses of peer reviewed articles in scientific journals.

What you need to watch out for is your assumption that anything that disagrees with what you “know “ is wrong.


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Yes, you are providing medical advice, when you give your two friends ‘information’ when they’re vulnerable and sick with cancer.

No, you don’t know the strength and weaknesses of peer reviewed articles in scientific journals.  They’re not necessarily true; they’re just not obviously wrong to the 2 or 3 anonymous reviewers.

I don’t ‘assume’ that anything that disagrees with what I ‘know’ is wrong.  I apply an informal Bayesian analysis, and ask whether what I’ve just read increases or decreases the probability of something being true.  Your selected articles don’t increase the probability that starving a tumour by carbohydrate depletion helps.  Patients with terminal cancer almost always die in a state of cachexia (nutritional starvation).

I don’t disagree that a low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet isn’t an acceptable diet, I just disagree that it’s the best diet, whether in the otherwise healthy, or in those with advanced cancer.  The necessary studies just aren’t available. 

It’s a fetish not to doubt everything you read, and not to check it, the more checking with the more surprising the thing read.

And answer my questions.  What type of cancers do your two friends have?  Where are the studies showing the efficacy of your diet in their specific cancers?
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2019, 08:47:27 PM »
I am not giving medical advice


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And you shouldn’t, regardless of whether it’s dietary advice for the otherwise healthy, or dietary advice for people with advanced cancer.  Full stop.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2019, 09:03:53 PM »
I still can't figure out why an Oncologist and the Mayo Clinic are wrong.  Let me guess.  'Big Sugar'  MIRITE?

It's because they don't understand that an educated layman with no medical training, spending two hours on PubMed, gains a far deeper understanding of the science than physicians with years of specialized medical training.

It's either that, or they're all in a grand conspiracy to keep us all sick so that they can sell us drugs. (The same friend of mine I mentioned in another thread, who refuses to read Shakespeare because he's a DWM, actually believes this.)

Those are not my claims at all. It sounds like you're arguing against someone else making a different point than dealing with the argument here and now.

Specifically, there have been three experts linked to here, none in peer reviewed scientific journals, and each one of them made specific arguments that are demonstrably false.

Maybe that's why their conclusions are different than most of the researches cited, because they are mistaken about some fairly basic facts about the issue. Or maybe it's just bias.

I don't know, but don't attribute claims or arguments to me that I'm not making.

You have claimed on numerous occasions that the medical establishment does not understand the science of nutrition. You have posted links to various papers, and you have not explicitly stated, but you have implied, that based on your reading of these papers you understand the science of nutrition better than the entire American medical establishment, whose recommendations differ from yours.

This was the basis for my satirical quip above.

That's not exactly what I have claimed and I have never implied that.

And your quip was sarcastic, not satirical.

My claim is that there is a mainstream hypothesis for diet and nutrition and an alternate hypothesis. There are serious and well qualified experts on both sides of the issue. I find the case made by the nutrition experts (mostly drs. some scientists, some researchers, some authors) who advocate the alternative hypothesis to be more persuasive than the mainstream experts.

No, I'm not relying my judgement and expertise over that of nutrition experts. I am relying on the judgement and expertise of the experts who generally find the alternate hypothesis more convincing. 

And, no, it's not the entire medical establishment. The alternate theory of diet and nutrition has gained more and more support in the nutrition community over the years.

So basically everything you just posted is wrong.
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I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2019, 09:05:36 PM »

And answer my questions.  What type of cancers do your two friends have?  Where are the studies showing the efficacy of your diet in their specific cancers?

Nope. Not answering any of your questions as long as you keep mischaracterizing what I am doing. I am not offering medical advice.

I suspect you keep making that accusation as you have a tendency to troll, and I'm not interested in playing along.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline Belgarath

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2019, 09:13:29 PM »

And answer my questions.  What type of cancers do your two friends have?  Where are the studies showing the efficacy of your diet in their specific cancers?

Nope. Not answering any of your questions as long as you keep mischaracterizing what I am doing. I am not offering medical advice.

I suspect you keep making that accusation as you have a tendency to troll, and I'm not interested in playing along.

Bullshit, you are offering medical advice you zealot. 

I'm going to go tell my friend all about the Burzynski clinic and how he gives lots of people hope and how his stupid piss injecting clinic has had 'promising results' etc.  But I'll end it with 'I'm not telling you what to do, but it's promising'

Didn't give him medical advice, now did I?  Go ahead, kill off your friends, cause that's what is going to happen if he follows your not medical advice, not that you'd care because of your blind zealotry.



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Offline bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2019, 09:53:58 PM »

And answer my questions.  What type of cancers do your two friends have?  Where are the studies showing the efficacy of your diet in their specific cancers?

Nope. Not answering any of your questions as long as you keep mischaracterizing what I am doing. I am not offering medical advice.

I suspect you keep making that accusation as you have a tendency to troll, and I'm not interested in playing along.

I’m not mischaracterising what you’re doing.  I’ll quote you from your first comment on this thread:

‘I have two close friends who have cancer now, one of them has known me since before I was a LCHF dieter, back when I was obese.  So I’m going to share this with him.  He’s fairly sceptical, and may dismiss it out of hand, but I would feel terrible if I did nothing, and then better studies start showing a beneficial effect while his cancer progresses.  (He’s doing chemo and after some progress his tumors have started growing again.)

You’re providing medical advice.  You didn’t write ‘should I provide the information?’  And you don’t have any knowledge about whether your diet actually has any efficacy in the specific cancers your friends have.  Your friends might be coming to harm if they have the specific cancers made worse by high fat diets.

I’m not trolling when I ask for evidence.  I’d be trolling if I provided unsupported assertions, as you do with your quasi-religious ideologically biased diet preference.

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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2019, 01:57:29 AM »
Medical advice is a specific legal term.

I am not giving anyone medical advice.


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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2019, 01:59:24 AM »

And answer my questions.  What type of cancers do your two friends have?  Where are the studies showing the efficacy of your diet in their specific cancers?

Nope. Not answering any of your questions as long as you keep mischaracterizing what I am doing. I am not offering medical advice.

I suspect you keep making that accusation as you have a tendency to troll, and I'm not interested in playing along.

Bullshit, you are offering medical advice you zealot. 

I'm going to go tell my friend all about the Burzynski clinic and how he gives lots of people hope and how his stupid piss injecting clinic has had 'promising results' etc.  But I'll end it with 'I'm not telling you what to do, but it's promising'

Didn't give him medical advice, now did I?  Go ahead, kill off your friends, cause that's what is going to happen if he follows your not medical advice, not that you'd care because of your blind zealotry.


I wasn’t sure what reaction I’d get here but I’d hoped it would be rational and informed.

Obviously my expectation was too high.


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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline lonely moa

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2019, 02:11:09 AM »
From my reading of some clinicians, a ketogenic diet is a helpful adjunct to conventional therapy for some cancers. 

Overweight and obese women are more at risk of breast cancer than lean women.  The standard american diets, high in processed carbs is very likely to add to the size and number of ones fat cells.  I would add there is evidence that the high fraction of calories in the SAD diet from PUFAs might also increase the risk.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2019, 02:32:02 AM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_advice?wprov=sfti1

Quote
Medical advice is the provision of a formal professional opinion regarding what a specific individual should or should not do to restore or preserve health.[1] Typically, medical advice involves giving a diagnosis and/or prescribing a treatment for medical condition.[2]

Medical advice can be distinguished from medical information, which is the relation of facts. Discussing facts and information is considered a fundamental free speech right and is not considered medical advice. Medical advice can also be distinguished from personal advice, even if the advice concerns medical care.


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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2019, 02:36:24 AM »

And answer my questions.  What type of cancers do your two friends have?  Where are the studies showing the efficacy of your diet in their specific cancers?

Nope. Not answering any of your questions as long as you keep mischaracterizing what I am doing. I am not offering medical advice.

I suspect you keep making that accusation as you have a tendency to troll, and I'm not interested in playing along.

Bullshit, you are offering medical advice you zealot. 

I'm going to go tell my friend all about the Burzynski clinic and how he gives lots of people hope and how his stupid piss injecting clinic has had 'promising results' etc.  But I'll end it with 'I'm not telling you what to do, but it's promising'

Didn't give him medical advice, now did I?  Go ahead, kill off your friends, cause that's what is going to happen if he follows your not medical advice, not that you'd care because of your blind zealotry.


I wasn’t sure what reaction I’d get here but I’d hoped it would be rational and informed.

Obviously my expectation was too high.


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Well, you’d get a rational and informed reaction if you were rational and informed in your assertions.  But you’re neither, so it’s hardly surprising that occasionally you’ll get harsh reactions.

And you’re giving medical advice.  You’re advising what people with medical conditions should do.
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