Author Topic: Ketogenic diets and cancer  (Read 2896 times)

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Online bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #150 on: September 05, 2019, 11:42:02 PM »
So now it comes out: CarbShark regards doctors as basically modern-day blood-letters. We've already see that he considers himself more qualified to read the medical literature than they are, and that he considers himself more knowledgeable on matters of nutrition than they are. This brings it full circle. He just doesn't think they're good for anything.

No no no.

I am equating bachfiends alleged medical experience, practice and approach as modern day blood letting.

I would argue I am more capable to read and comprehend medical literature than he and am more knowledgeable in matters of nutrition than he.

That he isn’t good for anything.



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Now you’re slandering me, and impugning my medical practice.  My basic philosophy has always been to ask for evidence for what we do, not to accept everything that’s in print as being true, and ‘to firstly do no harm.’

Your comprehension of the medical literature is abysmal, starting with your peer review fetishism.  As I’ve pointed out many times, peer review doesn’t mean that an article is true.  It just means that the article is not obviously wrong, at least not to the two or three anonymous reviewers.

And your knowledge of nutrition and diet is substandard, as you’ve demonstrated many times, including your insistence that ketone bodies aren’t derived from protein along with fat.

I’m almost tempted to report you to the moderator as a result of your personal attack on my integrity.

But to repeat myself.  You’ve been arguing that doctors are ignorant, and that the current epidemic of obesity, type 2 diabetes, and other related conditions, is due to flawed dietary guidelines, and doctors pushing them on their patients, who then slavishly follow them.

I argue, and the history of the epidemic is consistent with my argument, that the dietary guidelines were in response to the epidemic, starting in the ‘60s, and that doctors aren’t able to compete with their recommendations against the considerable power of fast food chains, processed food manufacturers and their advertisers.  Patients may see their doctors several times a year at most, but they’re exposed to advertisements for very unhealthy food high in sugar, fat and salt (the standard American diet) many times a day.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 12:03:28 AM by bachfiend »
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #151 on: September 06, 2019, 12:04:07 PM »
So now it comes out: CarbShark regards doctors as basically modern-day blood-letters. We've already see that he considers himself more qualified to read the medical literature than they are, and that he considers himself more knowledgeable on matters of nutrition than they are. This brings it full circle. He just doesn't think they're good for anything.

No no no.

I am equating bachfiends alleged medical experience, practice and approach as modern day blood letting.

I would argue I am more capable to read and comprehend medical literature than he and am more knowledgeable in matters of nutrition than he.

Thank you. You make my point in the same breath as you deny it. Bachfiend is a trained medical doctor and you claim to know more than he does about medicine and you regard him as nothing but a modern day bloodletter.

And though you don't make direct reference to my doctors, you have said that you know more about medicine than they do, and that you understand the literature better than they do, since they directly contradict your assertions, and give essentially the same advice that bachfiend does.

And you base this entire notion on the unfounded assertion that medical doctors do not care about nutrition and that they carefully avoid reading the literature on nutrition, or that if they do read it they cannot understand it (though you think you do) or that they reject it for unstated reasons which could only be a desire to keep their patients ignorant of an easy path to health.

But I have never had a doctor who didn't care about nutrition, or who regarded it as unimportant, or who didn't urge me to eat a healthy diet. So all that remains of your thesis is the claim that you are better able to understand published research papers than my doctors are. A claim I reject. Though in charity to you I will grant that your Google searches might just be giving you the small minority of papers that Google thinks you want, or that get the most hits, since fringe enthusiasts will necessarily raise the search score of those papers.
Daniel
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Offline wastrel

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #152 on: September 06, 2019, 12:36:08 PM »
Now you’re slandering me, and impugning my medical practice.


Offline CarbShark

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Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #153 on: September 06, 2019, 12:41:01 PM »
So now it comes out: CarbShark regards doctors as basically modern-day blood-letters. We've already see that he considers himself more qualified to read the medical literature than they are, and that he considers himself more knowledgeable on matters of nutrition than they are. This brings it full circle. He just doesn't think they're good for anything.

No no no.

I am equating bachfiends alleged medical experience, practice and approach as modern day blood letting.

I would argue I am more capable to read and comprehend medical literature than he and am more knowledgeable in matters of nutrition than he.

Thank you. You make my point in the same breath as you deny it. Bachfiend is a trained medical doctor and you claim to know more than he does about medicine and you regard him as nothing but a modern day bloodletter.
How do you know that?
That’s what he says but on an anonymous Internet forum you can claim to be anything.

I based those comments not on his alleged resume but on what he has said.

He also continually disparages peer review scientific studies which were the one thing that lifted us out of the world of blood letters.

Quote
And though you don't make direct reference to my doctors, you have said that you know more about medicine than they do,

Bullshit. I have absolutely never said that about your doctor or any doctor.

Quote
and that you understand the literature better than they do, since they directly contradict your assertions, and give essentially the same advice that bachfiend does.

Nor have I ever said that. Those are erroneous conclusions that you draw based on false assumptions.

I noticed you haven’t answered or even acknowledge my question about a lack of consensus among doctors and nutrition experts.

 
Quote
And you base this entire notion on the unfounded assertion that medical doctors do not care about nutrition and that they carefully avoid reading the literature on nutrition, or that if they do read it they cannot understand it (though you think you do) or that they reject it for unstated reasons which could only be a desire to keep their patients ignorant of an easy path to health.

More bullshit. The alternate hypothesis is based on numerous studies and analysis by experts in the various fields.

This entire tangent is based on you asking why the mainstream hasn’t embraced the alternate theory. I offered some suggestions and you extrapolated that beyond all recognition. 
Quote
But I have never had a doctor who didn't care about nutrition, or who regarded it as unimportant, or who didn't urge me to eat a healthy diet.

Well first you anecdotes are not proof or even evidence. Second, anybody, doctor or not, is going to tell you to eat a healthy diet.


Quote

So all that remains of your thesis is the claim that you are better able to understand published research papers than my doctors are. A claim I reject.

I’ve never made that claim. That’s entirely your conjecture.

It must be easier to argue by making up things the other guy says and then rejecting them.


Quote
Though in charity to you I will grant that your Google searches might just be giving you the small minority of papers that Google thinks you want, or that get the most hits, since fringe enthusiasts will necessarily raise the search score of those papers.

First, I never use google to search for studies in peer review journals. Even google scholar is less reliable and not as complete as pubmed.

Second you have no basis to claim that I am only looking at a minority of papers.

By far, the bulk of RCT studies comparing diet and nutrition find LCHF diets to be the most effective and healthiest weight loss diets for most people.

Further, by a wide margin the bulk of studies that look at the effects a diet high in sugar and fast simple carbs (highly processed) support the alt theory.

Go ahead and look for yourself. Prove me wrong. Just drop this entire argument from ignorance / appeal to authority. It’s unbecoming a skeptic.



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« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 12:44:32 PM by CarbShark »
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #154 on: September 06, 2019, 03:13:18 PM »
Now you’re slandering me, and impugning my medical practice.



The Internet is more ‘spoken’ than ‘written,’ so it’s more slander than libel.
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Online bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #155 on: September 06, 2019, 03:35:16 PM »
So now it comes out: CarbShark regards doctors as basically modern-day blood-letters. We've already see that he considers himself more qualified to read the medical literature than they are, and that he considers himself more knowledgeable on matters of nutrition than they are. This brings it full circle. He just doesn't think they're good for anything.

No no no.

I am equating bachfiends alleged medical experience, practice and approach as modern day blood letting.

I would argue I am more capable to read and comprehend medical literature than he and am more knowledgeable in matters of nutrition than he.

Thank you. You make my point in the same breath as you deny it. Bachfiend is a trained medical doctor and you claim to know more than he does about medicine and you regard him as nothing but a modern day bloodletter.
How do you know that?
That’s what he says but on an anonymous Internet forum you can claim to be anything.

I based those comments not on his alleged resume but on what he has said.

He also continually disparages peer review scientific studies which were the one thing that lifted us out of the world of blood letters.

Quote
And though you don't make direct reference to my doctors, you have said that you know more about medicine than they do,

Bullshit. I have absolutely never said that about your doctor or any doctor.

Quote
and that you understand the literature better than they do, since they directly contradict your assertions, and give essentially the same advice that bachfiend does.

Nor have I ever said that. Those are erroneous conclusions that you draw based on false assumptions.

I noticed you haven’t answered or even acknowledge my question about a lack of consensus among doctors and nutrition experts.

 
Quote
And you base this entire notion on the unfounded assertion that medical doctors do not care about nutrition and that they carefully avoid reading the literature on nutrition, or that if they do read it they cannot understand it (though you think you do) or that they reject it for unstated reasons which could only be a desire to keep their patients ignorant of an easy path to health.

More bullshit. The alternate hypothesis is based on numerous studies and analysis by experts in the various fields.

This entire tangent is based on you asking why the mainstream hasn’t embraced the alternate theory. I offered some suggestions and you extrapolated that beyond all recognition. 
Quote
But I have never had a doctor who didn't care about nutrition, or who regarded it as unimportant, or who didn't urge me to eat a healthy diet.

Well first you anecdotes are not proof or even evidence. Second, anybody, doctor or not, is going to tell you to eat a healthy diet.


Quote

So all that remains of your thesis is the claim that you are better able to understand published research papers than my doctors are. A claim I reject.

I’ve never made that claim. That’s entirely your conjecture.

It must be easier to argue by making up things the other guy says and then rejecting them.


Quote
Though in charity to you I will grant that your Google searches might just be giving you the small minority of papers that Google thinks you want, or that get the most hits, since fringe enthusiasts will necessarily raise the search score of those papers.

First, I never use google to search for studies in peer review journals. Even google scholar is less reliable and not as complete as pubmed.

Second you have no basis to claim that I am only looking at a minority of papers.

By far, the bulk of RCT studies comparing diet and nutrition find LCHF diets to be the most effective and healthiest weight loss diets for most people.

Further, by a wide margin the bulk of studies that look at the effects a diet high in sugar and fast simple carbs (highly processed) support the alt theory.

Go ahead and look for yourself. Prove me wrong. Just drop this entire argument from ignorance / appeal to authority. It’s unbecoming a skeptic.



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I graduated in 1978 from the University of Western Australia with a MB,BS (bachelor of medicine, bachelor of surgery) after 6 years university, 3 years preclinical, 3 years clinical).  Then I did 3 years of clinical medicine, before going into anatomical pathology, in which I had 6 years training before being awarded a FRCPathA (fellowship of the Royal Collage of Pathologists of Australasia).  And then I worked for 25 years in clinical pathology before retiring.

I don’t disparage peer reviewed papers.  But they not always right.  As I’ve noted many times, all peer review means is that the papers aren’t obviously wrong, at least not to the 2 or 3 anonymous reviewers.

CarbShark is a peer review fetishist.  He thinks peer reviewed papers apparently supporting his quasi-religious diet are always true, even when he’s extrapolated the papers’ conclusions beyond all recognition.

It’s reasonable that low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diets are acceptable for short term weight loss, because that’s all that the papers and studies that CarbShark cites show.  They’re short term studies (over months) in small study groups.  But CarbShark extrapolates these studies to claim that his diet is ‘best’ long term, over years and decades, and should be recommended for everyone.

But the data doesn’t exist.  Save for the study in the Lancet showing that low carbohydrate diets are associated with higher mortality and lower life expectancy.  Which CarbShark dismisses.

« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 12:27:52 AM by bachfiend »
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #156 on: September 06, 2019, 04:27:35 PM »
This is an anonymous internet forum. For all we know you may be a bored teenage girl who enjoys trolling skeptics.

You can slander or libel someone who is anonymous.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #157 on: September 06, 2019, 05:26:26 PM »
This is an anonymous internet forum. For all we know you may be a bored teenage girl who enjoys trolling skeptics.

You can slander or libel someone who is anonymous.

But I’m not a bored teenage girl.   For all we know, you’re a bored teenage girl who enjoys trolling sceptics.

You claim not to be a doctor (well, that part’s true), but have done a ton a ton of research on diet and nutrition, which is laughable.  You’ve done a lot of searching on the Internet, not research, and you’ve managed to pick up a lot of nonsense along the way, such as your assertion that you can tell when a person is eating too much protein; the person’s blood sugar level goes up.

I was impressed on my first day of university when two lecturers told us, separately, that half of what we were going to be taught over the next 6 years (all peer reviewed, by the way) would turn out to be wrong, and that they had no way of knowing in advance which half is right, and which half is wrong.

Not only do you reckon that doctors in training aren’t getting enough formal instruction in diet and nutrition, so that they’re ignorant, you think that what they’re actually being taught is wrong.  And that they should be indoctrinated with the ‘alternate hypothesis.’

Peer review has existed since around 1660, with the establishment of the Royal Society.  Blood letting was a peer review approved form of treatment (and it’s still OK treating haemochromatosis  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HFE_hereditary_haemochromatosis ).

You’re telling a story.  You claim that the current epidemic of obesity and type 2 diabetes is due to ignorant doctors pushing the dietary guidelines on their patients, who then slavishly follow them, who then stack on the weight.

I’ll tell a story.  One of my nephews is a general practitioner in a large regional town.  He’s almost at retirement age after a long clinical practice.  At our last family get together, one of my other nephews mentioned that he’d lost 30 kg and went from being obese to being normal weight.  Not by diet, not by exercise - he had a gastric sleeve.  My GP nephew then noted that in his experience - diet doesn’t work, exercise doesn’t work, in losing weight.

Well, actually doctors’ recommending diet and exercise doesn’t work.  Doctors can’t compete with fast food restaurant chains, processed food manufacturers and their relentless marketing.  The guidelines were a result of the epidemic of increasing obesity and type 2 diabetes, not the cause.  People just aren’t following them.  The guidelines recommend healthy eating.

Your attitude is obviously laughable after you claimed that a person could still meet the guidelines eating one meal a day from MacDonalds.  Provided the other two meals were rather restricted.

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Offline wastrel

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #158 on: September 06, 2019, 05:33:19 PM »
Now you’re slandering me, and impugning my medical practice.



The Internet is more ‘spoken’ than ‘written,’ so it’s more slander than libel.

Well, my post was mostly a joke....but what an odd thing to double down on.

What are your feelings about Hurricane Dorian hitting Alabama?

Online bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #159 on: September 06, 2019, 06:17:48 PM »
Now you’re slandering me, and impugning my medical practice.



The Internet is more ‘spoken’ than ‘written,’ so it’s more slander than libel.

Well, my post was mostly a joke....but what an odd thing to double down on.

What are your feelings about Hurricane Dorian hitting Alabama?

To use a CarbSharkarism, you’re off-topic.  It was a joke?  I thought jokes were supposed to be funny.  Apparently not.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #160 on: September 06, 2019, 06:23:03 PM »
This is an anonymous internet forum. For all we know you may be a bored teenage girl who enjoys trolling skeptics.

You can slander or libel someone who is anonymous.

But I’m not a bored teenage girl.   For all we know, you’re a bored teenage girl who enjoys trolling sceptics.

You claim not to be a doctor (well, that part’s true), but have done a ton a ton of research on diet and nutrition, which is laughable.  You’ve done a lot of searching on the Internet, not research, and you’ve managed to pick up a lot of nonsense along the way, such as your assertion that you can tell when a person is eating too much protein; the person’s blood sugar level goes up.

Blood sugar can go up when one eats excess protein, but I don't recall asserting that I could tell when that was happening.
Quote


Quote
Your attitude is obviously laughable after you claimed that a person could still meet the guidelines eating one meal a day from MacDonalds.  Provided the other two meals were rather restricted.

The other two meals could be typical McDonalds breakfasts and lunches.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #161 on: September 06, 2019, 07:54:43 PM »
This is an anonymous internet forum. For all we know you may be a bored teenage girl who enjoys trolling skeptics.

You can slander or libel someone who is anonymous.

But I’m not a bored teenage girl.   For all we know, you’re a bored teenage girl who enjoys trolling sceptics.

You claim not to be a doctor (well, that part’s true), but have done a ton a ton of research on diet and nutrition, which is laughable.  You’ve done a lot of searching on the Internet, not research, and you’ve managed to pick up a lot of nonsense along the way, such as your assertion that you can tell when a person is eating too much protein; the person’s blood sugar level goes up.

Blood sugar can go up when one eats excess protein, but I don't recall asserting that I could tell when that was happening.
Quote


Quote
Your attitude is obviously laughable after you claimed that a person could still meet the guidelines eating one meal a day from MacDonalds.  Provided the other two meals were rather restricted.

The other two meals could be typical McDonalds breakfasts and lunches.

It took me a bit of hunting, but I found your claim that if you’re on a low carbohydrate diet, excess protein intake is indicated by a rise in blood sugar levels:

https://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,43212.1650.html

And you’re doubling down when you claim that you could meet the dietary guidelines by eating all your meals at MacDonalds.  That’s a flat out lie.
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Offline CarbShark

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Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #162 on: September 06, 2019, 08:24:40 PM »
This is an anonymous internet forum. For all we know you may be a bored teenage girl who enjoys trolling skeptics.

You can slander or libel someone who is anonymous.

But I’m not a bored teenage girl.   For all we know, you’re a bored teenage girl who enjoys trolling sceptics.

You claim not to be a doctor (well, that part’s true), but have done a ton a ton of research on diet and nutrition, which is laughable.  You’ve done a lot of searching on the Internet, not research, and you’ve managed to pick up a lot of nonsense along the way, such as your assertion that you can tell when a person is eating too much protein; the person’s blood sugar level goes up.

Blood sugar can go up when one eats excess protein, but I don't recall asserting that I could tell when that was happening.
Quote


Quote
Your attitude is obviously laughable after you claimed that a person could still meet the guidelines eating one meal a day from MacDonalds.  Provided the other two meals were rather restricted.

The other two meals could be typical McDonalds breakfasts and lunches.

It took me a bit of hunting, but I found your claim that if you’re on a low carbohydrate diet, excess protein intake is indicated by a rise in blood sugar levels:

https://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,43212.1650.html

And you’re doubling down when you claim that you could meet the dietary guidelines by eating all your meals at MacDonalds.  That’s a flat out lie.
So we’re supposed to reread an entire thread to find some quote?  Why not link to the post  itself?

There you go trolling Again.

And showing your ignorance of the dietary guideline and the McDonalds menu. But at least you’re  confident and certain in your ignorance.


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« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 10:19:40 PM by CarbShark »
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online bachfiend

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #163 on: September 06, 2019, 08:31:17 PM »
This is an anonymous internet forum. For all we know you may be a bored teenage girl who enjoys trolling skeptics.

You can slander or libel someone who is anonymous.

But I’m not a bored teenage girl.   For all we know, you’re a bored teenage girl who enjoys trolling sceptics.

You claim not to be a doctor (well, that part’s true), but have done a ton a ton of research on diet and nutrition, which is laughable.  You’ve done a lot of searching on the Internet, not research, and you’ve managed to pick up a lot of nonsense along the way, such as your assertion that you can tell when a person is eating too much protein; the person’s blood sugar level goes up.

Blood sugar can go up when one eats excess protein, but I don't recall asserting that I could tell when that was happening.
Quote


Quote
Your attitude is obviously laughable after you claimed that a person could still meet the guidelines eating one meal a day from MacDonalds.  Provided the other two meals were rather restricted.

The other two meals could be typical McDonalds breakfasts and lunches.

It took me a bit of hunting, but I found your claim that if you’re on a low carbohydrate diet, excess protein intake is indicated by a rise in blood sugar levels:

https://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,43212.1650.html

And you’re doubling down when you claim that you could meet the dietary guidelines by eating all your meals at MacDonalds.  That’s a flat out lie.
So we’re supposed to reread an entire thread to find some quote?  Why not link to the post  itself?

There you go trolling Again.

And showing your ignorance of the dietary guideline and the McDonalds menu. But at least your confident and certain in your ignorance.


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Well, it’s reply #1650

https://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,43212.msg9615522.html#msg9615522

You have to read the conversation from then on to realise the stupidity of CarbShark’s understanding of diet and nutrition.  He claimed that the glycaemic index of steak is high (it isn’t), changed it to the insulin index (again it isn’t):

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/66/5/1264/4655967

[click on PDF for the full article]

Beef steak rates very highly for ‘area under the curve for insulin’/‘area under the curve for glucose’ [basically insulin index/a glycaemic index (not the glycaemic index)] in figure 4.  Beef steak elicits a much higher insulin response than it increases blood sugar.


Evidence that the dietary guidelines allow a person to have all their meals at MacDonalds?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 01:39:11 AM by bachfiend »
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Offline lonely moa

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Re: Ketogenic diets and cancer
« Reply #164 on: September 07, 2019, 02:42:35 PM »
A small aside, the new doco, "Fat a Documentary" has a bit to say on the therapeutic use of ketogenic diets for medical issues other than cancer; diabetes and epilepsy in particular. 
"Pull the goalie", Malcolm Gladwell.

 

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