Author Topic: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)  (Read 5110 times)

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Offline Captain Video

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Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« on: September 21, 2019, 01:19:41 AM »
This is a very compelling argument put forth from a scientist and vape store owner regarding the current madness to ban flavors.



Nobody has died from "vaping" Some people have been hurt and killed by exploding batteries. Several people recently have died from inhaling black market vitamin E acetate based THC oil. The two devices and liquids are completely different.  The media continues to report this incorrectly leading people to believe that normal vape products are killing people. Its shameful. They are hurting people by doing this.

Even Steves article on the topic in SBM was in my opinion poorly researched https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/vape-nation-vaping-is-bad-kids/

Quote
The vape industry is using the same slimy political tactics tobacco companies used in the past to promote their products to children and protect themselves from regulation

I disagree, flavors are for adults.

I'm addicted to nicotine, I'm an adult of 50 years and I like flavors, the tobacco flavor stuff tastes like crap as do cigarettes but if I cant have the vape i'm certainly going back to the cigs. I sometimes find myself jonesing for a cigarette especially when around others that smoke on set but i'm able to take a couple pulls of my strawberry cream, cinnamon funnel cake or fruity pebbles vape and the urge goes away. Like the man in the video and all of is customers, flavors have probably saved my life or at least extended it.  I first started with those chewing tobacco pouches at age 13, by 15 I was a fully fledged smoker. My Jr high school literally had butt cans outside so we wouldn't make a mess or smoke in the bathroom.

I occasionally smoke Marijuana and have purchased the oil products. Its been decriminalized in Atlanta and most of the smaller cities but not mine. Its still illegal to sell it.  Now I have stopped the oil because there is no way of knowing if someone is poisoning me regardless of a professional label and packaging.

Legal regulated THC and CBD oil products meant for inhaling have completely changed my mothers quality of life. No more morphine for debilitating chronic back pain. She has had many fused vertebrae operations.  She like the flavors. I wish I had access to what she does because I rarely smoke it to get "high"  and would prefer to get something that just reduces my anxiety. I like the flavors. I bring up both of the different products in this thread because the media keeps confusing them but they are absolutely two completely different topics with the only thing in common being that they come in different flavors and they use a battery. Put THC oil in a device meant for nicotine vapor and it will not work. (it is sometimes possible to use the "mod" or battery part interchangeably)

I agree there is what they are calling an "epidemic" of teens who have started vaping. This has nothing to do with flavors and the products are not marketed to them in any way, they are marketed to adults. Its no different than flavored vodka.  I'm ok with it only being sold in specialty stores similar to Liquor but some states sell Liquor in grocery stores and I'm not aware that any of those states have more teen drinkers than here or even some of the states with stronger laws like Pennsylvania.

I didn't know that they were opening Vape stores in hospitals in England and i'm interested if anyone from over there can verify that and expand on what mite be happening in other countries with this topic.

I do not recommend that anyone start vaping for any reason other than to find a substitute for smoking, especially teens but I would still rather they vape then smoke cigarettes. Take away the vape and they will smoke instead, just like us when we were kids. I don't know how to stop them but banning flavors is not the answer.

Offline Captain Video

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2019, 01:41:15 AM »
I'm sorry, I posted this in religion without noticing, will a moderator please move it to health?

Offline Captain Video

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2019, 02:13:40 AM »
Here is blog post by Dr Michael Siegel chastising the CDC for their dangerous and biased reporting of the THC oil deaths. His credits seem legit to me but perhaps someone else will say if he is actually credible or not.

Quote
Dr. Siegel is a Professor in the Department of Community Health Sciences, Boston University School of Public Health. He has 32 years of experience in the field of tobacco control. He previously spent two years working at the Office on Smoking and Health at CDC, where he conducted research on secondhand smoke and cigarette advertising...

https://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2019/09/despite-increasing-clarity-in-role-of.html

Quote
Don't let the CDC fool you. What they're not telling you is that in epidemiological outbreak investigations, we almost never identify a single exposure that ties together all of the cases. This is why we calculate odds ratios to estimate the strength of association between the exposure and the cases. If every single case was associated with a single exposure, then it wouldn't take an epidemiological analysis to identify the source of the outbrea

I defy you to find a single other CDC outbreak investigation in which the agency emphasized that "the investigation has not identified any specific exposure that is linked to all cases." The failure to find a 100% link between a single exposure and every single case is the norm in outbreak investigations and never precludes the CDC from concluding that a highly common exposure is a likely source. Except in this investigation.

Quote
It is clear to me that the agency has a pre-existing bias against electronic cigarettes and really wants to be able to implicate these products.

The CDC might attempt to defend itself by saying that they are simply trying to be extra cautious. But the truth is that if they wanted to be cautious, they would immediately issue a very clear and explicit warning to youth not to vape marijuana, period. That they have failed to do this indicates that they are playing with children's health and lives.


« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 02:19:13 AM by Captain Video »

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2019, 10:52:05 AM »
... I agree there is what they are calling an "epidemic" of teens who have started vaping. This has nothing to do with flavors and the products are not marketed to them in any way ...

I disagree with the above statement. From what has been reported elsewhere, especially on the Sawbones podcast, I believe that flavorings have a significant impact on getting teens to vape, and I believe the products are surreptitiously marketed to teens. This is all very reminiscent of the tobacco companies' ads, overtly aimed at adults, but intended to influence kids. Especially the "Marlboro Man," the he-man image intended to make kids think that smoking is a grown-up thing to do and that they'll be perceived as big strong cowboys if they smoke.

I am very sad to learn that smoking is allowed on movie sets. Slowly killing both the smokers and the non-smokers alike.

I categorically reject the assertion that vaping kills nobody. While it produces fewer noxious chemicals than burning tobacco leaf, there is no basis for judging it to be harmless to the vaper or to innocent people nearby. Nicotine is a deadly and addictive chemical that serves no purpose but to assuage the effects of withdrawal from its use.

The use of nicotine in any form should be limited to places where only other users are present and should be absolutely banned from any place where children are present, including private homes where children live or visit.

Marijuana should be legal for recreational use under the same limitations as above, and its potential for use as medicine should be studied in proper controlled trials. It contains a number of potent compounds and I think it likely that some of these will be found to be medically useful but anecdotes are useless except to suggest possible lines of study. I believe that most of the people using it under medical permits are actually recreational users, but since I think it should be allowed for recreational use I have no problem with this. For use as medicine, it is very poorly controlled as it is up to the user to decide what dose s/he will take and how often. It is the only "medicine" that requires a prescription yet allows the user to determine dosing.

Just my opinions, of course.
Daniel
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Offline Captain Video

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2019, 12:43:30 PM »
I am very sad to learn that smoking is allowed on movie sets. Slowly killing both the smokers and the non-smokers alike.

Since I opened that can of worms let me be a little more clear.  There are actually rules on how smoking is handled. I say "on set" meaning when I am at work but actually we are not permitted to smoke or vape "on the working set"  Actors are (usually) not permitted to smoke real cigs in a scene even if they are actual smokers, they have to smoke these herbal things that everyone complains about tasting bad. I have read that some big name actors mite get away with it but I have never witnessed it.

We get a safety memo for just about everything daily including fog machines which emit the same chemical that is the base for vaping (propylene glycol) There is almost always a fog machine running. I have breathed that stuff my entire adult life as a Nightclub DJ and now on set.

Smoking areas are usually marked and placed well away from other people.

There are some jobs where people are not able to get a break from the working set like the camera department and many of those smokers carry vapes and sneak tokes on set, I see it all the time. Sometimes you will walk around a corner and know that a grip was just in the area because it smells like fresh baked cookies.

I believe we are getting closer to a place where vaping areas will be separated from the smoking areas which is a complaint of mine.

Here are the safety bulletins on fog which include some dialog on smoking.  Actually this #10 does not include smoking but the one I get from the production does, im not sure where that memo is located and I cant share the one I actually receive from production.
https://www.csatf.org/safety_bulletin_10/
https://www.csatf.org/safety_bulletin_10-addendum_a/
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 01:09:29 PM by Captain Video »

Offline Sawyer

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2019, 03:12:49 PM »
... I agree there is what they are calling an "epidemic" of teens who have started vaping. This has nothing to do with flavors and the products are not marketed to them in any way ...

I disagree with the above statement. From what has been reported elsewhere, especially on the Sawbones podcast, I believe that flavorings have a significant impact on getting teens to vape, and I believe the products are surreptitiously marketed to teens. This is all very reminiscent of the tobacco companies' ads, overtly aimed at adults, but intended to influence kids. Especially the "Marlboro Man," the he-man image intended to make kids think that smoking is a grown-up thing to do and that they'll be perceived as big strong cowboys if they smoke.

I am very sad to learn that smoking is allowed on movie sets. Slowly killing both the smokers and the non-smokers alike.

I categorically reject the assertion that vaping kills nobody. While it produces fewer noxious chemicals than burning tobacco leaf, there is no basis for judging it to be harmless to the vaper or to innocent people nearby. Nicotine is a deadly and addictive chemical that serves no purpose but to assuage the effects of withdrawal from its use.

The use of nicotine in any form should be limited to places where only other users are present and should be absolutely banned from any place where children are present, including private homes where children live or visit.

Marijuana should be legal for recreational use under the same limitations as above, and its potential for use as medicine should be studied in proper controlled trials. It contains a number of potent compounds and I think it likely that some of these will be found to be medically useful but anecdotes are useless except to suggest possible lines of study. I believe that most of the people using it under medical permits are actually recreational users, but since I think it should be allowed for recreational use I have no problem with this. For use as medicine, it is very poorly controlled as it is up to the user to decide what dose s/he will take and how often. It is the only "medicine" that requires a prescription yet allows the user to determine dosing.

Just my opinions, of course.


Thanks for doing the heavy lifting for me.   This is the second thread in a row where I've been tempted to rant about historical legacy of a modern scientific issue (the other one being climate change).  I think you've managed to cite a good introductory source instead of the giant reading list that I would end up posting, and probably with fewer curse words.   :)

I'll also note we have had almost this exact conversation on these forums a few years ago with Simon Jester.  He was extremely adamant that e-cigarettes were a blessing to ex-smokers, and I was pissed off at how he wouldn't acknowledge that e-cig companies were repeating marketing tricks and regulatory loopholes pioneered by the very tobacco companies now widely recognized to be untrustworthy.

Offline Captain Video

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2019, 03:28:22 PM »
... I agree there is what they are calling an "epidemic" of teens who have started vaping. This has nothing to do with flavors and the products are not marketed to them in any way ...

I disagree with the above statement. From what has been reported elsewhere, especially on the Sawbones podcast, I believe that flavorings have a significant impact on getting teens to vape, and I believe the products are surreptitiously marketed to teens. This is all very reminiscent of the tobacco companies' ads, overtly aimed at adults, but intended to influence kids. Especially the "Marlboro Man," the he-man image intended to make kids think that smoking is a grown-up thing to do and that they'll be perceived as big strong cowboys if they smoke.

I am very sad to learn that smoking is allowed on movie sets. Slowly killing both the smokers and the non-smokers alike.

I categorically reject the assertion that vaping kills nobody. While it produces fewer noxious chemicals than burning tobacco leaf, there is no basis for judging it to be harmless to the vaper or to innocent people nearby. Nicotine is a deadly and addictive chemical that serves no purpose but to assuage the effects of withdrawal from its use.

The use of nicotine in any form should be limited to places where only other users are present and should be absolutely banned from any place where children are present, including private homes where children live or visit.

Marijuana should be legal for recreational use under the same limitations as above, and its potential for use as medicine should be studied in proper controlled trials. It contains a number of potent compounds and I think it likely that some of these will be found to be medically useful but anecdotes are useless except to suggest possible lines of study. I believe that most of the people using it under medical permits are actually recreational users, but since I think it should be allowed for recreational use I have no problem with this. For use as medicine, it is very poorly controlled as it is up to the user to decide what dose s/he will take and how often. It is the only "medicine" that requires a prescription yet allows the user to determine dosing.

Just my opinions, of course.


Thanks for doing the heavy lifting for me.   This is the second thread in a row where I've been tempted to rant about historical legacy of a modern scientific issue (the other one being climate change).  I think you've managed to cite a good introductory source instead of the giant reading list that I would end up posting, and probably with fewer curse words.   :)

I'll also note we have had almost this exact conversation on these forums a few years ago with Simon Jester.  He was extremely adamant that e-cigarettes were a blessing to ex-smokers, and I was pissed off at how he wouldn't acknowledge that e-cig companies were repeating marketing tricks and regulatory loopholes pioneered by the very tobacco companies now widely recognized to be untrustworthy.

Yes well the feeling is mutual that you think this type of advertising is for children.

I'm wondering if you just blew it off and kept to your opinions or if you watched the video. Adults pick these flavors, not kids and they save thousands of lives.

If I thought these sellers were trying to target kids I would punch them in the mouth, it would be despicable. At this point I don't even want them marketing to non smoking adults.

I am interested in what you think of the second part of the thread regarding what was said about the CDC by the Doctor, do you have any opinions on that?

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2019, 05:48:43 PM »
I am very sad to learn that smoking is allowed on movie sets. Slowly killing both the smokers and the non-smokers alike.

Since I opened that can of worms let me be a little more clear.  There are actually rules on how smoking is handled. I say "on set" meaning when I am at work but actually we are not permitted to smoke or vape "on the working set"  Actors are (usually) not permitted to smoke real cigs in a scene even if they are actual smokers, they have to smoke these herbal things that everyone complains about tasting bad. I have read that some big name actors mite get away with it but I have never witnessed it.

We get a safety memo for just about everything daily including fog machines which emit the same chemical that is the base for vaping (propylene glycol) There is almost always a fog machine running. I have breathed that stuff my entire adult life as a Nightclub DJ and now on set.

Smoking areas are usually marked and placed well away from other people.

There are some jobs where people are not able to get a break from the working set like the camera department and many of those smokers carry vapes and sneak tokes on set, I see it all the time. Sometimes you will walk around a corner and know that a grip was just in the area because it smells like fresh baked cookies.

I believe we are getting closer to a place where vaping areas will be separated from the smoking areas which is a complaint of mine.

Here are the safety bulletins on fog which include some dialog on smoking.  Actually this #10 does not include smoking but the one I get from the production does, im not sure where that memo is located and I cant share the one I actually receive from production.
https://www.csatf.org/safety_bulletin_10/
https://www.csatf.org/safety_bulletin_10-addendum_a/


Good to know. Thanks. I had to look up propylene glycol because I was thinking of antifreeze, which is not harmless at all, but that's something else entirely with a similar-sounding name.

You may have guessed that I am a militant anti-tobacco fanatic. This stems from my forced exposure to second-hand tobacco smoke growing up. In my father's house I was scolded if I tried to avoid the smoke. Apparently I was being rude, because by getting intensely sick I made the smokers realize what colossal assholes they were being. I probably would have ended up a serial killer rather than a pacifist if I'd been forced to live full-time in that house rather than only alternate weekends. My step-brother, who did live there, tried to murder his mother (or in his own version of the story, he "only" tried to rape her with a telephone). This was probably due to more than just exposure to second-hand tobacco smoke. I believe the Brothers Grimm studied his mother (my step-mother) in preparation for writing their stories. Anyway, I would treat the tobacco companies as the drug cartels they are, by putting their executives in prison for life and confiscating all their personal and corporate property.
Daniel
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Offline Sawyer

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2019, 06:55:47 PM »
So I think both Captain Video and I went searching for the original forum thread about this where we both posted, only to find it lost to the forumpocalypse.  I did manage to find this one, and stand by my general attitude of giving the CDC a lot of leeway and vape companies very little.

I'm afraid I don't feel much like rehashing any of the discussions we've had in the past, and I can't really offer my definitive list of sources for this topic as my memory has faded.  I'll list the three books I can remember giving me what I think is a good starting point for understanding all things tobacco related:

1. Merchants of Doubt by Naomi Oreskes and Eric Conway - a great chapter on second-hand smoke, and how to basically build a public support campaign for a clearly harmful product by exploiting mistrust of government and understaffed public health agencies
2. The Emperor of All Maladies by Siddhartha Mukherjee - I can't recall how much of this is relevant to e-cigarettes, but it spells out how criteria were established to definitively peg tobacco as a carcinogen, and again how public health agencies had to learn to start playing rough to combat this menace.
3. The Golden Holocaust by Robert Proctor - If you need a sleep aid.  Perhaps the most boring book I've ever read.  It's also the clearest on how every single institution ever involved in marketing smoking have been fully aware on the fact they were selling a deadly product, and how half-measures to stop kids from smoking are guaranteed to fail every time.


Somewhere on the internet is a 4th piece of the puzzle - an article or interview that really sold me on the idea that e-cigarette companies are doing the exact same thing that tobacco companies did in the 80s, and should be treated accordingly.  Might have been on SBM.  For some reason Slate comes to mind too.

Offline Sawyer

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2019, 07:01:08 PM »
I am very sad to learn that smoking is allowed on movie sets. Slowly killing both the smokers and the non-smokers alike.

Since I opened that can of worms let me be a little more clear.  There are actually rules on how smoking is handled. I say "on set" meaning when I am at work but actually we are not permitted to smoke or vape "on the working set"  Actors are (usually) not permitted to smoke real cigs in a scene even if they are actual smokers, they have to smoke these herbal things that everyone complains about tasting bad. I have read that some big name actors mite get away with it but I have never witnessed it.

We get a safety memo for just about everything daily including fog machines which emit the same chemical that is the base for vaping (propylene glycol) There is almost always a fog machine running. I have breathed that stuff my entire adult life as a Nightclub DJ and now on set.

Smoking areas are usually marked and placed well away from other people.

There are some jobs where people are not able to get a break from the working set like the camera department and many of those smokers carry vapes and sneak tokes on set, I see it all the time. Sometimes you will walk around a corner and know that a grip was just in the area because it smells like fresh baked cookies.

I believe we are getting closer to a place where vaping areas will be separated from the smoking areas which is a complaint of mine.

Here are the safety bulletins on fog which include some dialog on smoking.  Actually this #10 does not include smoking but the one I get from the production does, im not sure where that memo is located and I cant share the one I actually receive from production.
https://www.csatf.org/safety_bulletin_10/
https://www.csatf.org/safety_bulletin_10-addendum_a/


Good to know. Thanks. I had to look up propylene glycol because I was thinking of antifreeze, which is not harmless at all, but that's something else entirely with a similar-sounding name.

You may have guessed that I am a militant anti-tobacco fanatic. This stems from my forced exposure to second-hand tobacco smoke growing up. In my father's house I was scolded if I tried to avoid the smoke. Apparently I was being rude, because by getting intensely sick I made the smokers realize what colossal assholes they were being. I probably would have ended up a serial killer rather than a pacifist if I'd been forced to live full-time in that house rather than only alternate weekends. My step-brother, who did live there, tried to murder his mother (or in his own version of the story, he "only" tried to rape her with a telephone). This was probably due to more than just exposure to second-hand tobacco smoke. I believe the Brothers Grimm studied his mother (my step-mother) in preparation for writing their stories. Anyway, I would treat the tobacco companies as the drug cartels they are, by putting their executives in prison for life and confiscating all their personal and corporate property.

And I'm sorry to make light of such a gruesome story, but this made me think of the Family Guy where someone testifying before Congress says "Tobacco killed my father, and raped my mother."  Did they hire you as a writer?   :-\

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2019, 07:14:23 PM »
My step-mother was not actually hurt in the assault. She eventually developed emphysema, and as much as I hated her, I didn't want her to suffer that much.

I am quite convinced that vaping kills. But we'll probably have to go through the same shit we did with tobacco before vaping gets to where smoking is now. Except that at least back then we had people in government who believed in science. Now that the country is run by science-deniers, I have no hope of anything getting better in my lifetime. But since we're already running full speed downhill toward the cliff, I'm not sure it matters.
Daniel
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-- Greta Thunberg

Offline John Albert

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2019, 07:50:51 PM »
This is a very compelling argument put forth from a scientist and vape store owner regarding the current madness to ban flavors.

My skeptic alarm goes off whenever I hear somebody refer to themselves as a "scientist."

I know quite a few people who make their living working in the sciences, but I've never met a single academic or research professional introduce themselves as a "scientist." It's always "I'm a chemist," "I work in a biology research lab," "I'm an astronomer," "I'm a entomologist," "I'm a physicist who specializes in fluid dynamics," or whatever. The only time I've ever heard somebody introduce themselves to another adult as a "scientist," they were bullshitting.

The only credential this guy cites that should have any bearing on his credibility is "vape shop owner." That indicates a direct financial interest in the outcome of this hearing.


Nobody has died from "vaping"

Unfortunately, people are actually dying from vaping.


Even Steves article on the topic in SBM was in my opinion poorly researched https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/vape-nation-vaping-is-bad-kids/

Steve did not write that article. It was credited to Braden MacBeth.


I agree there is what they are calling an "epidemic" of teens who have started vaping. This has nothing to do with flavors and the products are not marketed to them in any way, they are marketed to adults.

There have been academic studies on how these products are marketed to teens, such as launch parties, vaping lounges, social media campaigns, and advertisements directed at the teen market: 

      

   

      


Its no different than flavored vodka.

Those ads and social media tactics are very different from how liquor is marketed.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 08:14:57 PM by John Albert »

Offline Sawyer

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2019, 08:23:31 PM »


Its no different than flavored vodka.

Those ads and social media tactics are very different from how liquor is marketed.

Hot take - there's probably a lot of conscious marketing towards teenagers with flavored liquors too.

Hotter take - all marketing of alcohol and tobacco has a disproportionate influence on teenagers compared to adults.

Offline Captain Video

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2019, 08:29:10 PM »
Yea that Simon Jester guy was an asshole, I'm sure glads hes gone  >:D

Is vaping bad for you? Absolutely, yes I believe it is. Its a bad habit to start and we should keep them out of children's hands. It is the most successful means to stop smoking. Those numbers are out there.

Are black market THC/CBD products bad for you? They are deadly and pose an immediate threat. There is no way of knowing what you are inhaling and people are cutting them with oils that can kill you. Even if the oils used are safe the amount of THC in these products is unregulated you have no idea how large or small of a dose you are getting. The black market products have the same kinds of professional designs and product labeling that the legitimate stuff has so they appear on the level. This is the real epidemic.

The two are being confused right now and I believe its irresponsible of our media and government to confuse these two separate issues.

Back to the flavors issue.

Where exactly are these flavors being marketed to children?  You can not get Fruity pebbles at a convenience store. It is sold in a place where only adults can enter. I get carded at every vape store I enter, I don't get carded at bars or grocery stores, I have a big grey beard that usually suffices as my ID but not in a vape shop. They are too concerned with children right now and do not want them anywhere near the place just like a liqueur store.

There are no billboards, no magazine adds, and certainly no Saturday morning cartoon commercials for Fruity pebbles flavored vape juice and you wont find them anywhere near an episode of Riverdale or whatever show the teens are watching now. This goes for 99% of all flavors.
You must be 18 or 21 depending on the company to visit a juice products website the same as porn.  (this could be more strict but like porn this is a separate issue that the vape stores will be happy to oblige if a better system is put in place.)

Juul which you can get at a convince store has started advertising on a large scale but a Juul is also a somewhat different item than the flavored vape juice you find at a vape store. When they did have flavors they only had 4 and they were pretty standard non kid sounding stuff with plain packaging (Menthol, Mango, fruit punch, and cream, they had a cucumber for a while too)  Because of backlash Juul has sworn to never sell them in a convince store ever again. You can only get the tobacco and menthol versions. Why menthol is not a "flavor" is beyond me but Obama started than when he banned all flavored cigarettes with the exception of menthol (his brand at the time).

They are not being marketed to teens even remotely in the same way that the Marlboro man was marketed to everyone.

Offline John Albert

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2019, 08:31:43 PM »
Hot take - there's probably a lot of conscious marketing towards teenagers with flavored liquors too.

Hotter take - all marketing of alcohol and tobacco has a disproportionate influence on teenagers compared to adults.

I don't find those takes all that hot. It's no secret that teenagers are more responsive to marketing than older adults, and marketers use that knowledge to target the youth.

But to say that Juul and other vape companies don't market to teens is an ill-informed opinion.


They are not being marketed to teens even remotely in the same way that the Marlboro man was marketed to everyone.

It's more like Joe Camel.