Author Topic: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)  (Read 2045 times)

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Offline John Albert

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2019, 12:10:18 AM »
Actually they are completely different formulas and mechanisms than what I am talking about.

You would have to show some evidence to support this claim.

Juul advertises that their exact formula as a proprietary trade secret, but for all intents and purposes it's chemically the same stuff that is sold in the little bottles.

The base formula for Juul pod juice is a 70/30 propylene glycol / vegetable glycerine ratio. (PG/VG)

The standalone vape juices sold in smoke shops contains the same base ingredients as the Juul pods, but in varying ratios. The most popular ratios seem to range from 30/70 PG/VG to 70/30 PG/VG.

The benefits of propylene glycol appear to be that it flows more easily and vaporizes at a lower temperature than vegetable glycerine, so it requires less power to vaporize.

Vegetable glycerine (which is a misnomer, since it's actually derived from fatty oils) reportedly provides a sweeter taste, but tends to be gummy and has a higher boiling point. So it can cause problems if your device can't provide enough current to vaporize it completely.

Moreover, glycerine vaporizes at 290°C (554°F), but undergoes thermal decomposition at only 280°C (536°F), creating a toxic aldehyde called acrolein. According to chemist Miroslaw Dworniczak:

         
Quote
For VG the boiling point is 290°C, but we have to remember that heating this compound over 280°C results in thermal decomposition – the glycerine molecule turns into acrolein, the simplest unsaturated aldehyde, having quite low boiling point of 530°C. Acrolein is a very reactive compound, toxic and irritating, especially for the eyes and skin. Every vaper experiencing dry puff should be aware of the fact that they are inhaling an amount of acrolein. This should be avoided as it is not good for our health.
https://nicotinepolicy.net/blogs/guest-blogs/23-miroslaw-dworniczak/144-glycerine

The other major difference between Juul pods and some of the bottled juices sold in smoke shops, is the type of nicotine solution. Juul uses nicotine salts, as opposed to freebased nicotine more often used in other brands of vape juice. There appear to be 3 main differences between nicotine salt (NS) versus freebase nicotine (FN): the efficiency with which the body absorbs the nicotine, the dosage level, and the taste and sensation of inhaling each.

Nicotine salt is the natural state of nicotine as formed in tobacco and tea leaves. It also reportedly has a smoother flavor when inhaled, but its absorption in the human body is much less efficient than FN. If raw NS were added, a much higher dose would be required to achieve the same blood nicotine level as FN. So the salts are treated with benzoic acid in order to increase the bioavailability of the nicotine. Still, NS requires a much higher dose (20 mg and up) to achieve the same blood nicotine level as single-digit milligram dosages of FN. Note that just because this form of nicotine is more "natural," that does not necessarily make it better or less harmful to your health. But it is less irritating.

Freebase nicotine is nicotine salts that have been "freebased" by a chemical treatment with diammonium phosphate to increase its absorption in the body without the need for increased dose. It is far more easily absorbed into the body than NS, so dosages tend to be far lower. But FN is also irritating to the skin and throat, and reportedly has a rather harsh, stinging flavor by comparison to NS. 

So the fact that Juul uses a minimal amount of VG would appear to be a good thing for their customers' health because it produces less acrolein. The fact that Juul uses nicotine salts as opposed to freebase nicotine would appear to indicate that Juul might also be less irritating than formulas that use freebase nicotine.

But most of the lung damage we're seeing might be caused by the flavoring agents or drug mixtures (such as THC infused oil), which may be safe for their intended use as food additives but unsafe to inhale into the lungs.


I would be okay with forbidding Juul to stop advertising and selling it in convenience stores along with the big tobacco products. I typically would be against this sort of thing but this is a public health issue.

If vaping is indeed less harmful than smoking, then why should Juul be restricted from sale in convenience stores, while the more harmful cigarettes are still allowed?


I completely reject the concept that these flavors are being designed for kids.

I don't think anyone had made the argument that the flavors are expressly designed for kids per se.

But the fact remains that as nicotine delivery devices, they're undoubtedly more appealing to kids than the bitter-tasting traditional tobacco products.

And researchers in the government and in academia have discovered that these products are being marketed to minors.


this is what is used for the kind of vaping I am talking about


So you're trying to tell me that those bottles, whose design is obviously patterned after Iron Man's power suit, are not intended to appeal to kids? They look like they belong in the toy aisle.




this one tastes EXACTLY like toast with butter and strawberry jam. Its perfect. It also has an additional side effect, it curbs your desire to eat strawberry toast and jam, at least it does for me, much better for my diabetes which I keep trying to do better with.


That looks exactly like the kind of thing you would find in the candy aisle of 7-11.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 01:43:19 PM by John Albert »

Offline Captain Video

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2019, 02:00:25 AM »
They are drug cartels, and they are selling the most addictive and lethal drug there is, and in spite of laws, they're selling it to kids.

This is the other point I'm trying to make that I think is important. Right now drug cartels are making black market THC products that work in a similar fashion to vaping and selling them to kids. The kids are also adding THC to regular Vape juice which does not work the same but may still produce a high. The oils can be heated to an incorrect temperature.  The kids are getting sick and some are dying. The products tested from the sick kids contains vitamin E acetate which is unusual and not in legitimate medical and recreational products. 90% of the sick KIDS admitted to THC use. CBD is also used by the kids. Quite a bit of what all kids get is black market because they are kids. Its easy to make. This is their version of smoking joints like our generations did or blunts like the 90s generation still does. The black market stuff has the same "candy store" and themed appearance that the vape stores and recreational and medical THC stores have (all of the THC products in the facilities have similar marketing). The kids can't actually know what chemicals they are breathing, statistically some are probably lying about the THC.

this is what the general public sees

The media:
Vaping is killing these kids!

The CDC:
90% is not enough we are not 100% sure what this is but we are sure it has to do with the vaping epidemic

Our President:
Flavors are killing kids right now, I'm going to ban all flavors and stop this epidemic

I believe the points put together in the blog I posted by the Doctor above whos credentials seem solid that we can be skeptical of the idea that the CDC does not have enough data pointing to vitamin E acetate and that Vaping is a completely separate issue to this current problem that is killing people.

Nobody is saying that these flavors are not attractive to kids, flavors are attractive to everyone, we are saying they are not marketed to kids and if anyone is lets stop them. Flavors are a necessary part of the experience and a big reason why they work as incentive for replacing tobacco.

 Juul is white box product and it is on the shelves where kids can see it, Juuls and menthol are the most popular vapes for kids separate from the popular flavored THC devices which is the preferred way to get high among students. The black market THC juice is branded like a candy store. Banning candy store labeled, strawberry toast flavored smoking cessation products for adults will not solve this problem.
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Offline Captain Video

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2019, 02:48:27 AM »
That looks exactly like the kind of thing you would find in the candy aisle of 7-11.

Yes absolutely, Adults purchase more of that 7-11 candy for themselves than they do for kids. That box is especially appealing and because of that I found a flavor I really like among all the other colored boxes which keep me from smoking. The PA dutch Hex symbol on the funnel cake caught my attention too as did the dunkin doughnut looking label and the circus looking cotton candy.  The store brand can not always afford that labeling and theirs are often white label or only include the stores logo. The bigger companies (not big tobacco) who do make those labels are much more like craft brewers and small wine makers.

Its the same candy store design with pot leaves and deadhead skulls on THC products marketed to adults. You usually will not and should not find those flavored NIC, THC, and CBD products being sold in places where kids are present.  The black market as I brought up before is another subject.

CBD is another big concern, Now we can add lots of woo into the mix and those products also come in flavors with candy store marketing but should we deny my mother and other adults medical CBD and THC with appealing flavors? I dont think this new flavor vape ban even covers that stuff. It wont stop the black market stuff the kids are doing.

If your problem is with capitalism and marketing that could be applied to all products not just vaping.
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Offline Captain Video

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2019, 03:25:19 AM »
I'm trying to cover some of Johns points and questions, the science he put forth on the differences between the standard juice and nic salts Juul product would seem correct but I dont understand how you would not see they are different, the link from the american cancer society claimed they are more addictive and in my own experience I can assure you they are extremely powerful and can make you dizzy much like a non smoker smoking an unfiltered cig for the first time. The Juul also makes me cough.  It may be a better alternative for heavy smokers who are just starting to quit.

Quote
If vaping is indeed less harmful than smoking, then why should Juul be restricted from sale in convenience stores, while the more harmful cigarettes are still allowed?

Thats a good question, I don't know, it seems stupid to me, cigarettes are still more popular and deadly, Obama banned all flavors which were probably less than 2% of the market but didn't ban menthol which was is the most popular above regular, why? The big tobacco lobby probably, the same lobby that wants these flavored vape juices out of the public hands.

Are you asking me personally if we should ban sales of cigarettes in convince stores and only sell them in designated places? Not to mention Cigars, dip, and pipe tobacco. Yes, this is a public health issue and while I believe adults should be able to choose there is no reason why putting them in a place where children can not enter would hinder them being able to purchase them. Ill vote for that.

edit: let me amend that and say I would vote against any so called "blue laws" like the liqueur stores are subjected too or laws that declare what time those stores would be permitted to be open. No stopping sales on Sunday or after last call, if a tobacco shop wants to be open there is no legitimate reason they cant be open 24 hours. I'm ok with them being required to hire a cop like some liquor stores and medical marijuana faculties must do depending on the state. A few of our liquor stores here hire off duty cops of their own accord, its safer for them.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 03:52:10 AM by Captain Video »
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2019, 10:33:59 AM »
So Juul is different than other e-sig products. Coke is different than Pepsi. But both are nicotine delivery devices just as Coke and Pepsi are both colas. Both have essentially the same effect: Nicotine kills. Colas have caffeine and rot your teeth. Tom-AY-toe. Tom-AH-toe. It's only because of political corruption that nicotine is not treated the same in the law as cocaine: Tobacco is grown in the U.S. When Japan tried to outlaw the sale of tobacco, the United States threatened trade sanctions. Tobacco is the American equivalent of cocaine and America doesn't give a fuck who it kills. Because our corrupt legislators smoke, they allow tobacco companies (and now vape companies including Juul) to hook every succeeding generation of kids on their drug.

IMO it would be far better to inconvenience today's smokers by getting rid of that crap than to allow a large proportion of every generation to become slaves to the drug cartels that sell nicotine.

Outlaw tobacco and other forms of nicotine and sell them by prescription only, under a regime of diminishing dosage to help people get through withdrawal slowly. Nicotine serves no useful purpose and the damage it does far outweighs the "right" of individual adult smokers and vapers to continue to kill themselves.

Cap: You come to this from the POV of someone addicted to nicotine who wants to be able to continue your addiction. I come to it from the POV of someone who was abused for years and years as a child by being forced to smoke the second-hand smoke of everyone in my step-mother's house. We could probably butt heads on this forever. But as someone who went through oxycodone withdrawal, I can tell you that if you were deprived of nicotine you'd be utterly miserable for a while, and then you would be extremely relieved to be free of that addiction.
Daniel
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2019, 10:38:17 AM »

Somewhere on the internet is a 4th piece of the puzzle - an article or interview that really sold me on the idea that e-cigarette companies are doing the exact same thing that tobacco companies did in the 80s, and should be treated accordingly.  Might have been on SBM.  For some reason Slate comes to mind too.
https://www.flavorshookkids.org/#stats

Quote
NICOTINE = BRAIN POISON
Flavors mask the harsh taste of tobacco which makes it easier for kids to smoke — and most kids don’t know that flavored e-cigarettes are high in nicotine.

Flavors
The tobacco industry is hooking the next generation of addicts, and flavors are a big way in. Four out of five kids who have used tobacco started with a flavored product.


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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline Captain Video

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2019, 10:47:20 AM »
Daniel, im curious how come you keep ignoring the THC vitamin E acetate problem I keep bringing up, as well as black market juice.  Are you not interested in that part of the conversation?
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Offline John Albert

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2019, 01:04:32 PM »
That looks exactly like the kind of thing you would find in the candy aisle of 7-11.

Yes absolutely, Adults purchase more of that 7-11 candy for themselves than they do for kids. That box is especially appealing and because of that I found a flavor I really like among all the other colored boxes which keep me from smoking.

You haven't shown any evidence that adults purchase more candy for themselves than they do for kids. At any rate, I don't understand why that's even relevant.

The point is that candy is marketed with bright colors and cartoonish imagery to appeal directly to kids, and so are many of these vape products.

There's also no long term evidence that vaping really is less dangerous than smoking. It could turn out to be even worse for your health in the long term.


If your problem is with capitalism and marketing that could be applied to all products not just vaping.

I do think that marketing and capitalism ought to be more tightly regulated. That indeed applies to all products, but especially medicines, foods, soft drinks, recreational inhalants, and anything else we put into our bodies.


This is the other point I'm trying to make that I think is important. Right now drug cartels are making black market THC products that work in a similar fashion to vaping and selling them to kids. The kids are also adding THC to regular Vape juice which does not work the same but may still produce a high. The oils can be heated to an incorrect temperature.  The kids are getting sick and some are dying. The products tested from the sick kids contains vitamin E acetate which is unusual and not in legitimate medical and recreational products. 90% of the sick KIDS admitted to THC use. CBD is also used by the kids. Quite a bit of what all kids get is black market because they are kids. Its easy to make.

All of this is true, and the DIY approach is another aspect of vaping culture that makes it especially hazardous. Considering that amateurs are experimenting with mixing up their own vape juices, including the addition of drugs or untested flavoring agents, it's not surprising that people are suffocating to death because their alveoli are clogged up with vitamin E oil.

To me the whole 'vaping' thing seems a lot like the alt-med industry. It markets unproven, feel-good woo as a drug delivery system and replacement for cigarette smoking, when there is no long-term evidence that vaping really is less dangerous. 


This is their version of smoking joints like our generations did or blunts like the 90s generation still does.

Perhaps a better analogy would be 'dabs,' the homemade hash oil made by soaking marijuana in butane from cigarette lighters. It's largely a DIY home chemistry experiment with a greater potential for danger than simply rolling a joint or stuffing weed into a hollowed-out cigar.


Juul is white box product and it is on the shelves where kids can see it, Juuls and menthol are the most popular vapes for kids separate from the popular flavored THC devices which is the preferred way to get high among students. The black market THC juice is branded like a candy store. Banning candy store labeled, strawberry toast flavored smoking cessation products for adults will not solve this problem.

As far as I can tell, the entire industry is problematic but it doesn't seem likely that anything will be banned outright. What needs to happen is some kind of regulation on all the products, including the 3rd party Juul pods and the bottles of vape juice, which are currently not held to any kind of manufacturing standard.

There's also the issue of people refilling their own Juul pods with bottled juice from a smoke shop (or homemade juice), some of which may not be formulated for use in a low-power device like a Juul pen.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 04:49:56 PM by John Albert »

Offline The Latinist

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2019, 01:22:36 PM »
I'll also note we have had almost this exact conversation on these forums a few years ago with Simon Jester.  He was extremely adamant that e-cigarettes were a blessing to ex-smokers, and I was pissed off at how he wouldn't acknowledge that e-cig companies were repeating marketing tricks and regulatory loopholes pioneered by the very tobacco companies now widely recognized to be untrustworthy.

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Offline Calinthalus

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2019, 01:25:47 PM »
My mother was talking about all of the e-cig stuff she's seeing on the news.  We were sitting on her porch talking and she informed me that like 6 people had died recently.  I replied, "How many people died from cigarettes during that time period?"...she looked down at the cigarette in her hand and laughed.  Those things basically killed my father (it was one among several things that killed my father).  Yet here we are.


Clearly, we need regulations to keep kids from buying these things.  But saying candy flavors are created for kids is like watching Akira and telling me that cartoons are made for kids....or GTA was made for kids since it is a video game. 


We all have our vices, and what any adult human wants to put into his/her/their body is none of my goddamn business. 
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Offline Captain Video

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2019, 01:29:26 PM »
yea you can get the nic salt juice for a similar device that looks like a Juul in the vape shops. Thats what they put in the pods.  "salted juice"

There are also aftermarket flavor pods and products that look like Juuls but I only see them in the vape shops.


I frequent two different shops, both card militantly every time I enter, even if they know me.

One is extremely strict in that they refuse to sell anything but e-liquid and mods similar to what I have shown above, they wont touch Juuls, Salts or CBD.

The other store I frequent is also a head shop, Vape juice is the main seller but the have a collection of pot pipes, bongs, and hookahs. CBD woo is out of control at this place and I see new customers coming in specifically for this product all the time. Gummies seem to be the most popular. (yes these are adults buying the gummies), A group of them older than I  stormed in the other day after church, lol grandma likes CBD gummies.

the owner asked me if i wanted to try the new "CBD flowers" and held up a huge bag of buds.

I looked at him and said "you mean hemp? i'll let you know if I need to make some rope."

It does tickle me a bit that the new legal hemp law in Georgia is keeping authorities from arresting people for pot because they have no way of testing whether it is THC active or not. Just send it over here, I am happy to test that shit for them  >:D


 
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 01:33:41 PM by Captain Video »
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Offline Captain Video

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2019, 01:30:52 PM »
I'll also note we have had almost this exact conversation on these forums a few years ago with Simon Jester.  He was extremely adamant that e-cigarettes were a blessing to ex-smokers, and I was pissed off at how he wouldn't acknowledge that e-cig companies were repeating marketing tricks and regulatory loopholes pioneered by the very tobacco companies now widely recognized to be untrustworthy.

Captain Video is Simon Jester.

we figured that out already, thanks, I guess we should have sad so publicly  >:D
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Offline John Albert

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2019, 01:35:28 PM »
Because our corrupt legislators smoke, they allow tobacco companies (and now vape companies including Juul) to hook every succeeding generation of kids on their drug.

I don't even think it's because our legislators smoke. I'd be willing to bet that smokers are a vanishing minority in the US Congress.

I think that the reason why our legislators allow the nicotine companies to get away with hooking our country on poison is because they and their constituents are financially invested in the tobacco industry, and politicians from both parties receive significant donations from the tobacco lobby. Consequential to that is the libertarian mindset that rejects the notion of a "nanny state" that looks after its citizens' health and welfare. 

Offline Captain Video

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2019, 01:54:56 PM »
Because our corrupt legislators smoke, they allow tobacco companies (and now vape companies including Juul) to hook every succeeding generation of kids on their drug.

I don't even think it's because our legislators smoke. I'd be willing to bet that smokers are a vanishing minority in the US Congress.

I think that the reason why our legislators allow the nicotine companies to get away with hooking our country on poison is because they and their constituents are financially invested in the tobacco industry, and politicians from both parties receive significant donations from the tobacco lobby. Consequential to that is the libertarian mindset that rejects the notion of a "nanny state" that looks after its citizens' health and welfare.

This libertarian has already stated several times that I am willing to put stricter controls on the sales as tobacco can harm others around you and children should not be smoking (or vaping or doing THC without prescription) I'm curios what Calinthalus thinks about that.

tobacco and this black market THC oil are the leading enemies yet all the focus is on flavored non nic salt based e-juice sold by artisans. Its the tobacco lobby at work.

I like what is happening in the UK where its being promoted as a cessation device by the government and used in the programs designed to help you quit smoking.

Can anyone look at the doctors information I posted above please? I really will accept a negative answer about this guys credentials and i'm trying to approach what he has claimed skeptically.

here it is again.

https://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2019/09/despite-increasing-clarity-in-role-of.html

Quote
The CDC has continually downplayed the role of THC vape carts in the outbreak and even today, continues to blame it on electronic cigarettes generally. Most revealing is the fact that every time the CDC even mentions a potential role of THC, it immediately undermines it by emphasizing that "The investigation has not identified any specific e-cigarette or vaping product (devices, liquids, refill pods, and/or cartridges) or substance that is linked to all cases."
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Offline Calinthalus

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Re: Flavors saved my life! (yet another Vape thread)
« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2019, 01:56:34 PM »
Should we outlaw sugar then?  Or should we dictate to our citizens a certain BMI targets or face criminal or financial penalties?  Surely that would have a positive impact on the health and welfare of our citizens.  It's sure to instill joy-joy feelings in all happy citizens.




We outlawed heroin decades and decades ago.  How's that working out for us?



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