Author Topic: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?  (Read 2510 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 13085
Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #195 on: January 16, 2020, 01:40:03 PM »
Now that you’re not obese, why don’t you do a trial of a normal carbohydrate diet to see if it changes your health or fitness?  If you find that it does affect either, you can always revert to your low carbohydrate ketogenic diet (although the placebo effect can’t be excluded.  You think carbohydrates are harmful, so you’ll ‘feel’ that they’re harmful).

Normal? Yeah, right. The amount of Carbohydrates in the typical American and Western diets is anything but normal.

You're suggesting that after going from obese to a healthy weight; from inactive and out of shape to healthy and fit, I should go back to the unhealthy diet I had been?

For what fucking purpose?

I don't consider anecdotes science so their certainly isn't a scientific purpose.

Quote
All you’re doing is a poorly controlled observational study with a population of one, and engaging in the ecological fallacy in comparing yourself to acquaintances of your age.

No. i'm not doing a study. (Although I have done several N=1 experiments for specific purposes).

Quote

You need to do some sort of RCT, even if only with one subject. 

WTF? How, my I ask, do you randomize one subject?

There are plenty of RCTs that support exactly what I'm doing, so I'm covered.

Far more than there are for Intermittent Fasting diets, and even then there are far fewer (if any) that do the 23:1 version.

Quote
Ketogenic diets appear to impede anaerobic fitness compared to normal carbohydrate diets:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29619799

Albeit, in short studies of only 4 days.  Longer trials are obviously necessary.  There might be some adaptation to chronic nutritional ketosis.

Considering it takes at more than 4 days, often a week for one to go into ketosis and around a month to be fully fat-adapted, a 4 day study is pretty meaningless.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 13085
Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #196 on: January 16, 2020, 01:42:55 PM »
Ketogenic diets appear to impede anaerobic fitness compared to normal carbohydrate diets:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29619799

Albeit, in short studies of only 4 days.  Longer trials are obviously necessary.  There might be some adaptation to chronic nutritional ketosis.

Interesting one of the articles you skipped in order to cherry pick that one:



Keto-adaptation enhances exercise performance and body composition responses to training in endurance athletes. - PubMed - NCBI


Quote
Compared to a HC comparison group, a 12-week period of keto-adaptation and exercise training, enhanced body composition, fat oxidation during exercise, and specific measures of performance relevant to competitive endurance athletes.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2759
Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #197 on: January 16, 2020, 02:42:11 PM »
CarbShark,

The study I cited was looking at anaerobic fitness, because it was suggested that by fasting for 23 hours I’m reducing my glycogen stores and reducing my anaerobic fitness towards the end of the fasting period.

The study you’re citing is looking at aerobic fitness in endurance athletes, which is something different.

Anaerobic fitness requires glucose predominantly, supplied by skeletal muscle glycogen stores.

Aerobic fitness depend mainly on fat oxidation.  The type 2 slow twitch muscle fibres predominantly involved in aerobic endurance activities contain relatively large stores of fat compared to type 1 fast twitch muscle fibres, predominantly involved in aerobic sprint type exercises including weight resistance training, which contain relatively more glycogen stores than type 2 fibres.

When I was a pathologist examining muscle biopsies, the first special stains I looked at were the PAS (for glycogen) and a fat stain, which immediately gave me an indication whether there was any specific disease affecting one fibre type or not.

There’s no contradiction between the study I cited and the study you’ve cited, because they’re looking at different things.

Actually your study confirms something I was attempting to do when I first developed intermittent fasting decades ago when I was training for the marathon.  I’d do a long session of deep water running with a buoyancy belt in a pool, in an attempt to deplete glycogen stores, then I’d go for a 10 km training run in the afternoon (hopefully running predominantly on fat instead of glucose, to habituate myself to running on fat only at the end of a marathon, and avoid ‘hitting the wall’ at 32 km), and then I’d eat breakfast.

I was never convinced by the ‘carbohydrate loading in the three days before a marathon’ hypothesis, though I did it, ‘just in case.’

The study of one I was suggesting for you to do doesn’t require you to go on a high carbohydrate (or high simple sugars diet typical diet typical of most Americans) for weeks.  Just a normal carbohydrate diet of perhaps 30-40% carbohydrates by proportion of energy intake compared to your current 5% for a few days, just to replenish your skeletal muscle glycogen stores, and to test whether your anaerobic fitness increases, decreases or stays the same.

I can’t do a similar study, because I don’t do anaerobic exercises in my daily exercise program, never have, I’m more of an endurance athlete (albeit a mediocre one - my best time in the marathon was just under 2 hours 48 minutes, or 4 minute kilometres), so I don’t have a baseline to determine if glycogen depletion would affect anaerobic fitness.

It does demonstrate your ideological quasi-religious  antipathy to carbohydrates though.

A study of one isn’t an ‘anecdote.’  It’s an attempt to see whether changing your diet has any effect on your fitness.  You certainly told an anecdote concerning yourself when you noted that you’re fitter today than you were 10 years ago when you were obese, and that you consider yourself fitter and healthier than most of your acquaintances of your age.  I’m not suggesting that you should go back to being obese.  Just a short period of a few days to restore your glycogen stores.  It won’t do any harm, and shouldn’t take long to get back into ketosis, to regain the health benefits (if there are any, which I doubt, I’m still to be convinced).

Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 13085
Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #198 on: January 16, 2020, 03:18:24 PM »
A study of one isn’t an ‘anecdote.’

That's all I need to read.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2759
Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #199 on: January 16, 2020, 03:41:57 PM »
A study of one isn’t an ‘anecdote.’

That's all I need to read.

Because you’re incapable of understanding (or don’t want to) what I wrote.  It’s not an anecdote, unlike your anecdote that you’re fitter today than you were 10 years when you were obese.  Your ideological blinkers are impressive.  You don’t want to look at anything that might disturb your quasi-religious devotion to your diet.

You’ve also cherry-picked a long comment, ignoring almost all of it.
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 13085
Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #200 on: January 16, 2020, 05:01:44 PM »
A study of one isn’t an ‘anecdote.’

That's all I need to read.

Because you’re incapable of understanding (or don’t want to) what I wrote. 


No argument there. Sometimes your writing leaves me completely baffled.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 06:10:25 PM by CarbShark »
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2759
Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #201 on: January 16, 2020, 05:25:07 PM »
A study of one isn’t an ‘anecdote.’

That's all I need to read.

Because you’re incapable of understanding (or don’t want to) what I wrote. 


No argument there. Sometimes your writing leaves me completely baffled.

You’ve also cherry-picked a long comment, ignoring almost all of it.
[/quote]

Because your ideological blinkers have blinded you to reason.
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline jt512

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2883
    • jt512
Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #202 on: January 17, 2020, 01:11:40 AM »
You need to do some sort of RCT, even if only with one subject. 

WTF? How, my I ask, do you randomize one subject?

You don't.  Instead, you randomize the order of the treatments.

N-of-1 clinical trials
Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof.

Offline jt512

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2883
    • jt512
Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #203 on: January 17, 2020, 01:33:10 AM »
All you’re doing is a poorly controlled observational study with a population of one, and engaging in the ecological fallacy in comparing yourself to acquaintances of your age.

I‘m not seeing an ecologic fallacy there. Can you explain?


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

When CarbShark is comparing himself and his health and fitness to a poorly defined group of acquaintances of roughly his age, assessing his perceptions of their health and fitness, and assuming that any differences he perceives is due to differences in their diets and not some other factor or factors.  He’s more or less assuming that since in the general population, ketogenic diets aren’t all that popular (at least not to the obsessive degree that CarbShark engages in), then his sample group of acquaintances of roughly the same age will also be on non-ketogenic diets.

He’s extending general population characteristics to a sample control population.  And not measuring the characteristics particularly well.

The ecologic fallacy is the use of an association between two variables measured at the group level to draw conclusions about the relationship between the variables at the individual level.  For example, Bray et al committed the ecologic fallacy when they asserted that high-fructose corn syrup is responsible for the obesity epidemic because a population-level increase in consumption of high-fructose corn syrup occurred simultaneously with the increase in obesity.  But that observation does not logically imply that it was the individuals who increased their high-fructose corn syrup intake who became obese.

CS isn't a group, so I don't see how he could have committed the ecologic fallacy.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 01:47:40 AM by jt512 »
Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof.

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2759
Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #204 on: January 17, 2020, 01:36:54 PM »
All you’re doing is a poorly controlled observational study with a population of one, and engaging in the ecological fallacy in comparing yourself to acquaintances of your age.

I‘m not seeing an ecologic fallacy there. Can you explain?


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

When CarbShark is comparing himself and his health and fitness to a poorly defined group of acquaintances of roughly his age, assessing his perceptions of their health and fitness, and assuming that any differences he perceives is due to differences in their diets and not some other factor or factors.  He’s more or less assuming that since in the general population, ketogenic diets aren’t all that popular (at least not to the obsessive degree that CarbShark engages in), then his sample group of acquaintances of roughly the same age will also be on non-ketogenic diets.

He’s extending general population characteristics to a sample control population.  And not measuring the characteristics particularly well.

The ecologic fallacy is the use of an association between two variables measured at the group level to draw conclusions about the relationship between the variables at the individual level.  For example, Bray et al committed the ecologic fallacy when they asserted that high-fructose corn syrup is responsible for the obesity epidemic because a population-level increase in consumption of high-fructose corn syrup occurred simultaneously with the increase in obesity.  But that observation does not logically imply that it was the individuals who increased their high-fructose corn syrup intake who became obese.

CS isn't a group, so I don't see how he could have committed the ecologic fallacy.

It’s the group that he’s comparing himself to - acquaintances who are of his age.  He claims to be healthier and fitter than most of them, which he ascribes to his diet (inferring that the acquaintances of his age perceived by CarbShark to be less fit and healthy than he is are so because of their diet).  But he doesn’t know that these acquaintances are actually less healthy and fit than he is, or what their diet is (acquaintances are just that, people whom you just meet occasionally and know little about).  He’s ascribing what he knows about Americans in general, or claims to know, and is applying it a a smaller group of Americans.  That’s the ecological fallacy.

Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 13085
Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #205 on: January 17, 2020, 02:05:05 PM »
You need to do some sort of RCT, even if only with one subject. 

WTF? How, my I ask, do you randomize one subject?

You don't.  Instead, you randomize the order of the treatments.

N-of-1 clinical trials


No thanks.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline jt512

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2883
    • jt512
Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #206 on: January 17, 2020, 02:09:43 PM »
You need to do some sort of RCT, even if only with one subject. 

WTF? How, my I ask, do you randomize one subject?

You don't.  Instead, you randomize the order of the treatments.

N-of-1 clinical trials


No thanks.

I was simply answering your question.



Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof.

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 13085
Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #207 on: January 17, 2020, 02:12:26 PM »
It’s the group that he’s comparing himself to - acquaintances who are of his age.  He claims to be healthier and fitter than most of them, which he ascribes to his diet (inferring that the acquaintances of his age perceived by CarbShark to be less fit and healthy thanhe is are so because of their diet).  But he doesn’t know that these acquaintances are actually less healthy and fit than he is, or what their diet is (acquaintances are just that, people whom you just meet occasionally and know little about). He’s ascribing what he knows about Americans in general, or claims to know, and is applying it a a smaller group of Americans.  That’s the ecological fallacy.

I did NOT do and am not doing any of what's in bold

And acquaintances is your word, not mine.

Quote
My fitness by any measure is far better than it was 10 years ago, and better than most people I know my age.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 02:18:28 PM by CarbShark »
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 13085
Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #208 on: January 17, 2020, 02:13:51 PM »
You need to do some sort of RCT, even if only with one subject. 

WTF? How, my I ask, do you randomize one subject?

You don't.  Instead, you randomize the order of the treatments.

N-of-1 clinical trials


No thanks.

I was simply answering your question.

Oh, then, thanks.

But no thanks to BachFiend's suggestion that I do a stupid, counter productive and unnecessary n=1 experiment for absolutely no good purpose.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2759
Re: Intermittent fasting. Health benefits?
« Reply #209 on: January 17, 2020, 02:22:33 PM »
You need to do some sort of RCT, even if only with one subject. 

WTF? How, my I ask, do you randomize one subject?

You don't.  Instead, you randomize the order of the treatments.

N-of-1 clinical trials


No thanks.

But it does demonstrate your antipathy to carbohydrates.  You were obese 10 years ago, and now you’re not (obese that is, you haven’t clarified whether you’re not overweight)), so obviously you should be healthier and fitter now than you would otherwise have been.  And you ascribe it to your diet.  But you don’t know whether you would be healthier and fitter if you were on another diet, with the same weight.

My suggestion was that you should try a short trial and replenish your skeletal muscle glycogen stores with some carbohydrates for a few days, and assess whether it increases, decreases or has no effect on your anaerobic fitness.

Where’s the harm in that?  Getting out of a nutritional ketosis for a few weeks won’t cause any long term harm, assuming that it’s of health benefit (which I doubt).
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

 

personate-rain