Author Topic: Episode #762  (Read 1453 times)

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Online daniel1948

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Re: Episode #762
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2020, 06:15:42 PM »
Rebecca's commentary linked above by John Albert, is spot-on. The rogues do recognize that climate change is a very serious problem, but they seem to think that technology will find a fix, and they don't seem to realize what an important part is played by politics in obstructing solutions. And as she notes, climate change is already an apocalypse for the people who have lost their lives, their livelihoods, or their homes because of it.

To be fair, I don't think that criticism is accurate anymore (keep in mind that Rebecca left the SGU five years ago). Climate change and its dangers are frequently discussed on the podcast, and Steve's blogpost from the end of the last decade doesn't really give a naive view I think.

Sometimes when they talk about climate change, like in that live show in New Zealand, the mood becomes "This is depressing, let's talk about something else!". I would prefer they did not do that, but rather addressed head-on how to think about this as an individual citizen whose political power doesn't go much beyond voting in elections.

As I said, the rogues do acknowledge that climate change is serious. But they still see it in terms of something that is coming, not (as Rebecca points out) something that's killing people and destroying lives today. And they still see it as a problem of technology that will be solved by science, rather than a problem of politics that needs to be addressed politically. Cara seems to be the only one of the rogues who recognizes that the single greatest threat to the climate today is Trump. When the rogues suggest, even in jest, that corporations will solve the climate disaster, they are missing the point entirely, which is that politics and the political power of the fossil fuel industry assure that without political action to prevent it, we won't stop burning fossil fuels until they are all gone. Ikea may switch to renewable energy, but GM will continue to build gas guzzlers as long as there's gas to put in them.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #762
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2020, 07:42:40 PM »
Rebecca's commentary linked above by John Albert, is spot-on. The rogues do recognize that climate change is a very serious problem, but they seem to think that technology will find a fix, and they don't seem to realize what an important part is played by politics in obstructing solutions. And as she notes, climate change is already an apocalypse for the people who have lost their lives, their livelihoods, or their homes because of it.

To be fair, I don't think that criticism is accurate anymore (keep in mind that Rebecca left the SGU five years ago). Climate change and its dangers are frequently discussed on the podcast, and Steve's blogpost from the end of the last decade doesn't really give a naive view I think.

Sometimes when they talk about climate change, like in that live show in New Zealand, the mood becomes "This is depressing, let's talk about something else!". I would prefer they did not do that, but rather addressed head-on how to think about this as an individual citizen whose political power doesn't go much beyond voting in elections.

As I said, the rogues do acknowledge that climate change is serious. But they still see it in terms of something that is coming, not (as Rebecca points out) something that's killing people and destroying lives today. And they still see it as a problem of technology that will be solved by science, rather than a problem of politics that needs to be addressed politically. Cara seems to be the only one of the rogues who recognizes that the single greatest threat to the climate today is Trump. When the rogues suggest, even in jest, that corporations will solve the climate disaster, they are missing the point entirely, which is that politics and the political power of the fossil fuel industry assure that without political action to prevent it, we won't stop burning fossil fuels until they are all gone. Ikea may switch to renewable energy, but GM will continue to build gas guzzlers as long as there's gas to put in them.

Not once there is no economic incentive to continue doing so. It is already more economically viable to build new renewable power stations than it is to build new fossil fuel-burning ones. More and more companies are refusing to provide insurance to the fossil fuel industry, and even big mining giants have stated that there is no future in thermal coal.

We're already winning. Or at least starting to win. In 2035, the people who are setting and implementing policy at the big companies are going to be the people who were marching with Greta in 2019.
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Re: Episode #762
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2020, 11:45:20 PM »
I really liked the episode, and I thought a lot of their stuff was spot-on in its plausibility, at least. I liked how each of the Rogues reacted realistically and consistent with their personality to each of the items, and how Jay kept up the role of apprehensive techno-contrarian throughout. The only thing that really didn't hit at all for me was 'The Aug' (sp?), which I just don't see as plausible within the 15 year timeline at all.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #762
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2020, 12:09:39 AM »
I really liked the episode, and I thought a lot of their stuff was spot-on in its plausibility, at least. I liked how each of the Rogues reacted realistically and consistent with their personality to each of the items, and how Jay kept up the role of apprehensive techno-contrarian throughout. The only thing that really didn't hit at all for me was 'The Aug' (sp?), which I just don't see as plausible within the 15 year timeline at all.

Really? I do. I think it's completely plausible. If you're envisioning it as some kind of implant that taps into the ocular nerve or something then I agree, but it doesn't have to be that. A pair of glasses would be sufficient. There have already been experiments with contact lenses that have embedded display functions.

And since I assume that "aug" is an abbreviation of "augmented reality" I think you got the spelling right. :)
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Online Ah.hell

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Re: Episode #762
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2020, 09:44:01 AM »
I wonder if this gimmick was inspired by the "After the Warming" show hosted by James Burke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Burke_(science_historian)) from over 30 years ago:

The host of the program pretends that he's living in 2050, explaining all of the climate change related disasters that occurred in the prior 60+ years and the response of governments.  I don't think this concept has aged well, mostly since we do so poorly in making specific predictions about the future.  From this show, I remember that famines where to impact "comfortable American living rooms" in the 1990s, and if you still had a car by 2010, "too bad".
I loved Burke as a kid but none of his stuff has particularly aged well.  Still, combining my love of history and science, he may be one of the biggest influences in my life.   Side note, I have a distinct memory of him talking about global cooling that clearly did not happen.  Memory is weird for sure.

Also, do the rogues spend the whole episode doing the message from the future BS or can I listen to it?  I find their scripted stuff to be quite difficult to listen to.

Online daniel1948

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Re: Episode #762
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2020, 11:21:28 AM »
Rebecca's commentary linked above by John Albert, is spot-on. The rogues do recognize that climate change is a very serious problem, but they seem to think that technology will find a fix, and they don't seem to realize what an important part is played by politics in obstructing solutions. And as she notes, climate change is already an apocalypse for the people who have lost their lives, their livelihoods, or their homes because of it.

To be fair, I don't think that criticism is accurate anymore (keep in mind that Rebecca left the SGU five years ago). Climate change and its dangers are frequently discussed on the podcast, and Steve's blogpost from the end of the last decade doesn't really give a naive view I think.

Sometimes when they talk about climate change, like in that live show in New Zealand, the mood becomes "This is depressing, let's talk about something else!". I would prefer they did not do that, but rather addressed head-on how to think about this as an individual citizen whose political power doesn't go much beyond voting in elections.

As I said, the rogues do acknowledge that climate change is serious. But they still see it in terms of something that is coming, not (as Rebecca points out) something that's killing people and destroying lives today. And they still see it as a problem of technology that will be solved by science, rather than a problem of politics that needs to be addressed politically. Cara seems to be the only one of the rogues who recognizes that the single greatest threat to the climate today is Trump. When the rogues suggest, even in jest, that corporations will solve the climate disaster, they are missing the point entirely, which is that politics and the political power of the fossil fuel industry assure that without political action to prevent it, we won't stop burning fossil fuels until they are all gone. Ikea may switch to renewable energy, but GM will continue to build gas guzzlers as long as there's gas to put in them.

Not once there is no economic incentive to continue doing so. It is already more economically viable to build new renewable power stations than it is to build new fossil fuel-burning ones. More and more companies are refusing to provide insurance to the fossil fuel industry, and even big mining giants have stated that there is no future in thermal coal.

We're already winning. Or at least starting to win. In 2035, the people who are setting and implementing policy at the big companies are going to be the people who were marching with Greta in 2019.

Renewables are already more economical here in Maui and the utility is planning more renewables. But we have the most expensive electricity in the country (three times the national average). The question is: Are we going to build renewable capacity faster than the growth in energy usage? Or are we just going to replace the most expensive fossil plants while continuing to increase fossil fuel use overall? How quickly, for example, can we build out the electric transportation system? And convince the general public to switch? Other than Cara, are any of the rogues driving electric cars today? China is a leader in renewables, but is also a leader in building new coal-fired plants.

And the people running the big companies in 2035 will be the people who are in their 40's today. Not the young people marching with Greta today. It will be 40 years before they even begin to get on the boards of directors, assuming there's anything left of the economy by then. An assumption I'm not optimistic about. Again, the rogues' basic assumption is that technology will fix everything. My basic assumption is that politicians will fight any solution that threatens the status quo. We can't just sit back and wait for technology. We have to fight tooth and nail in the political arena. And both political parties want to keep the status quo. The nation is a canoe headed for a waterfall: The Republicans are paddling as hard as they can towards the waterfall and shouting "Stay the course!" The Democrats are mumbling under their breath "Maybe we ought to consider the possibility of paddling a little bit slower." And anybody who suggests turning around and paddling the other way is labeled a socialist and excoriated by both parties.

... do the rogues spend the whole episode doing the message from the future BS ...

Yeah, pretty much.
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Offline The Latinist

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Re: Episode #762
« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2020, 04:50:51 PM »
Also, do the rogues spend the whole episode doing the message from the future BS or can I listen to it?  I find their scripted stuff to be quite difficult to listen to.

Everything but SoF is 2035 retrospective. If I were you, I’d give it a try; it’s not exactly scripted; it seems to me that they essentially are working from notes as usual, it’s just that the notes are fictional future ones.  I didn’t find it as annoying as I do most of their scripted stuff.

That said, if you don’t like the first 5 minutes or so, it’s not going to change significantly.
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Offline Swagomatic

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Re: Episode #762
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2020, 05:11:17 PM »
Also, do the rogues spend the whole episode doing the message from the future BS or can I listen to it?  I find their scripted stuff to be quite difficult to listen to.

Everything but SoF is 2035 retrospective. If I were you, I’d give it a try; it’s not exactly scripted; it seems to me that they essentially are working from notes as usual, it’s just that the notes are fictional future ones.  I didn’t find it as annoying as I do most of their scripted stuff.

That said, if you don’t like the first 5 minutes or so, it’s not going to change significantly.

Yes, that was my impression as well - kind of a guided ad lib.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Episode #762
« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2020, 05:32:41 PM »
I wonder if this gimmick was inspired by the "After the Warming" show hosted by James Burke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Burke_(science_historian)) from over 30 years ago:

The host of the program pretends that he's living in 2050, explaining all of the climate change related disasters that occurred in the prior 60+ years and the response of governments.  I don't think this concept has aged well, mostly since we do so poorly in making specific predictions about the future.  From this show, I remember that famines where to impact "comfortable American living rooms" in the 1990s, and if you still had a car by 2010, "too bad".
I loved Burke as a kid but none of his stuff has particularly aged well.  Still, combining my love of history and science, he may be one of the biggest influences in my life.   Side note, I have a distinct memory of him talking about global cooling that clearly did not happen.  Memory is weird for sure.

Also, do the rogues spend the whole episode doing the message from the future BS or can I listen to it?  I find their scripted stuff to be quite difficult to listen to.

It wasn't scripted. You can very easily tell when someone is reading from a script. I got the impression that each rogue preprepared and worldbuilt their news segment, and extemporised on that basis. Once you get past those segments, the "BS" as you call it is toned down. Apart from one or two offhand comments, Science or Fiction is played mostly straight. They don't make up SoF items from the future.
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Online Ah.hell

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Re: Episode #762
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2020, 11:03:47 AM »
I moved it to the back of my que, maybe all give it a shot. I got maybe 2 minutes in before I figured I ask if it was worth it.

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Re: Episode #762
« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2020, 06:02:49 PM »
Like I said, I enjoyed it. And it's not like they do a schtick like this very often.
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Re: Episode #762
« Reply #56 on: February 29, 2020, 01:08:05 PM »
Other than Cara, are any of the rogues driving electric cars today?

So is she already a strict vegetarian (i.e., no meat, no dairy, no eggs) or quasi-strict vegetarian (no need to "be"/feel "morally superior" https://twitter.com/carasantamaria/status/334786391466717186 )?

“A vegetarian with a Hummer is actually better for the environment than a meat eater with a bicycle.”
—Professor Mark Post, TEDxHaarlem 2013-08-05
https://blog.ted.com/meet-the-new-meat-a-tedx-talk-to-pair-with-the-first-lab-grown-hamburger
[2:38]

• Steinfeld H et al. “Livestock's long shadow: Environmental issues and options.” The Livestock, Environment and development [LEAD] Initiative, FAO (2006). ISBN: 978-92-5-105571-7
http://www.fao.org/3/a0701e/a0701e00.htm ;; http://www.fao.org/3/a0701e/a0701e.pdf

• Foley JA et al. “Solutions for a cultivated planet.” Nature (2011 Oct 12) vol. 478 (7369) pp. 337-42. DOI: 10.1038/nature10452
https://www.cedarcreek.umn.edu/biblio/fulltext/nature10452.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21993620 ;; https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21993620

“The State of Food and Agriculture. Livestock in the Balance.” Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (2009). ISBN: 978-92-5-106215-9
http://www.fao.org/3/i0680e/i0680e00.htm ;; http://www.fao.org/3/i0680e/i0680e.pdf

• Bajželj B et al. “Importance of food-demand management for climate mitigation.” Nature Climate Change (2014) vol. 4 (10) pp. 924–929. DOI: 10.1038/nclimate2353
http://sbc.ucdavis.edu/files/202364.pdf
https://fcrn.org.uk/research-library/importance-food-demand-management-climate-mitigation

• Mekonnen MM, Hoekstra AY. “A global assessment of the water footprint of farm animal products.” Ecosystems (2012) vol. 15 (3) pp. 401-415. DOI: 10.1007/s10021-011-9517-8
1. https://waterfootprint.org/media/downloads/Mekonnen-Hoekstra-2012-WaterFootprintFarmAnimalProducts.pdf
2. https://waterfootprint.org/media/downloads/Report-48-WaterFootprint-AnimalProducts-Vol1.pdf
3. https://research.utwente.nl/en/publications/the-green-blue-and-grey-water-footprint-of-farm-animals-and-anima
https://waterfootprint.org/en/resources/waterstat

• Vanham D et al. “The water footprint of the EU for different diets.” Ecological Indicators (2013) vol. 32 pp. 1-8. DOI: 10.1016/j.ecolind.2013.02.020
https://waterfootprint.org/media/downloads/Vanham-et-al-2013.pdf
https://ec.europa.eu/jrc/en/news/water-footprint-eu-different-diets-9674

Online daniel1948

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Re: Episode #762
« Reply #57 on: February 29, 2020, 06:07:09 PM »
Other than Cara, are any of the rogues driving electric cars today?

So is she already a strict vegetarian

Cara eats meat and is open about enjoying it. She has mentioned her Texas roots in connection with her love of meat. Like the other rogues, she has expressed no intention of quitting.

But unlike them, she drives an electric car. Steve has solar PV installed on his house, but I am not aware that he's ever mentioned considering getting an EV.
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