Author Topic: Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion (2006)  (Read 11548 times)

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Offline door

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Re: Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion (2006)
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2008, 07:43:16 AM »
In the end how is being an atheist different to being a theist?

Does this book address this?


Personally I'm an agnostic with a twist of atheism. A strong twist, but still..


 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 08:02:10 AM by door »

Offline Kwisatz Haderach

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Re: Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion (2006)
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2008, 07:44:36 AM »
I am currently a big proponent of Christians coming out as Atheists.  Let your wife know that it's ok, atheism is the future of Christianity!



Hi Febo,

I am sure you have covered this before, but I am new here.  What is an atheist christian, and, further, how are they different from an atheist muslim?

I would also take issue with your claim that the majority of the religious are classed as believing in a supernatutral deity although they really don't.  Where are you from?  I am from the UK, BTW, where religion is barely even mentioned, but western europe is really the exception worldwide in my opinion.

In the United States, most Jews (at least those of the reformed and conservative traditions) observe some of the traditions (the ones that don't get in the way of contemporary life), and celebrate some of the Holidays, and enjoy the stories from scripture, but no one, not even their Rabbi, demands that they believe anything in particular to be considered a "Jew".  The supernatural bits are seen as curious parts of the cultural tradition, but not the foundation of the Faith; the foundation of the Faith is a loving community that shares a common history and mythology and supports its people.

I see Christianity, and all religions, the same way.

Obviously, no one tradition has any exclusive claim on "a loving community that shares a common history and mythology and supports its people," so the way I see it, the only difference between the various religion is the particulars of their shared history, customs, and mythologies.

See Also.


I wouldn't disagree with your view of Judaism in the US, although my experience is not great, but I would love to see your evidence that mainstream christianity is the same 'happy-go-lucky' group hug that views this 'god' character as an amusing quirk.

There are many congregations of mainstream Christians like that, mostly in Northeastern Cities.  Overall, mainstream Christianity is certainly not at that point yet, but it is heading in that direction.   However, it is certainly closer to that than it is to the cult of hatred and ignorance that is it frequently portrayed as by skeptics and in the mainstream media.

Offline Zookster

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Re: Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion (2006)
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2008, 07:57:10 AM »
Ok, so we are getting somewhere.  Christianity is HEADING in the direction of being a simple collection of people sharing a culture.  But it is not there yet.  I hope you are right.

But history shows that religion can wax as well as wane in its virulence.

And can you answer my question as to the diffrence between an atheist muslim and an atheist christian?

Edit:  And another thing, while the mainstream may not be the cult of hatred and ignorance, the loudest and most (overtly) influential bits are.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 07:58:42 AM by Zookster »
Massey: No, he needs to be left alone.  We can't fix any of this with violence.
Schlock: You're just afraid to use enough of it.
-----------------
Tagon: So what is it, gas?  Ice crystals?
Ennesby:  It's a melange.
Tagon: I didn't ask what colour it was!

Offline Kwisatz Haderach

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Re: Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion (2006)
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2008, 08:32:17 AM »
And can you answer my question as to the difference between an atheist Muslim and an atheist Christian?

I thought I did... the bit about "the only difference is the specifics of their Myths and Customs." 

Quote
Edit:  And another thing, while the mainstream may not be the cult of hatred and ignorance, the loudest and most (overtly) influential bits are.

Yeah, that sucks, doesn't it?

And they are aided by hateful and ignorant skeptics (not naming any names) who encourage others to believe that this vocal minority is representative of the majority.

Offline Zookster

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Re: Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion (2006)
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2008, 08:49:16 AM »
And can you answer my question as to the difference between an atheist Muslim and an atheist Christian?

I thought I did... the bit about "the only difference is the specifics of their Myths and Customs." 

Quote
Edit:  And another thing, while the mainstream may not be the cult of hatred and ignorance, the loudest and most (overtly) influential bits are.

Yeah, that sucks, doesn't it?

And they are aided by hateful and ignorant skeptics (not naming any names) who encourage others to believe that this vocal minority is representative of the majority.

Ok, so there is no difference between atheist christians, atheist muslims, and atheists birdwatchers.

I understand your point, just don't agree.

And the hateful and ignorant skeptics are guilty only of pointing out that the vocal minority are the problem.  Most skeptics I have read are happy to say that they are perfectly ok with people practicing any faith they want in a non intrusive way.  And concede that many or most do.  So I think hateful and ignorant is a bit harsh.
Massey: No, he needs to be left alone.  We can't fix any of this with violence.
Schlock: You're just afraid to use enough of it.
-----------------
Tagon: So what is it, gas?  Ice crystals?
Ennesby:  It's a melange.
Tagon: I didn't ask what colour it was!

Offline Kwisatz Haderach

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Re: Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion (2006)
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2008, 09:18:52 AM »
And the hateful and ignorant skeptics are guilty only of pointing out that the vocal minority are the problem.  Most skeptics I have read are happy to say that they are perfectly ok with people practicing any faith they want in a non intrusive way.  And concede that many or most do.  So I think hateful and ignorant is a bit harsh.

The hateful and ignorant skeptic are just as rare and non-representative as the hateful and ignorant Christians.  But I am still sometimes shocked by the degree to which many run-of-mill skeptics take extremists' rhetoric at face value.

Offline Zookster

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Re: Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion (2006)
« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2008, 09:30:54 AM »
And the hateful and ignorant skeptics are guilty only of pointing out that the vocal minority are the problem.  Most skeptics I have read are happy to say that they are perfectly ok with people practicing any faith they want in a non intrusive way.  And concede that many or most do.  So I think hateful and ignorant is a bit harsh.

The hateful and ignorant skeptic are just as rare and non-representative as the hateful and ignorant Christians.  But I am still sometimes shocked by the degree to which many run-of-mill skeptics take extremists' rhetoric at face value.

Himm, if they take rhetoric at face value then, drum roll please, they are not real skeptics. ahahahahahahahaha I kill me.
Massey: No, he needs to be left alone.  We can't fix any of this with violence.
Schlock: You're just afraid to use enough of it.
-----------------
Tagon: So what is it, gas?  Ice crystals?
Ennesby:  It's a melange.
Tagon: I didn't ask what colour it was!

Offline 2112

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Re: Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion (2006)
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2008, 11:05:40 AM »
I find it funny when people say that religion leads to violence and atheism is the way out. Just look at that drunk bastard Christopher Hitchens. He uses his extreme form of atheism to advocate the wholesale slaughter of muslims. People must realize it is not religion that causes violence, its fundamentalism (I think a great skeptic once said that).
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Offline cerveauxfrits

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Re: Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion (2006)
« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2008, 11:12:24 AM »
I find it funny when people say that religion leads to violence and atheism is the way out. Just look at that drunk bastard Christopher Hitchens. He uses his extreme form of atheism to advocate the wholesale slaughter of muslims. People must realize it is not religion that causes violence, its fundamentalism (I think a great skeptic once said that).
Srsly, I'm getting sick of that argument.  I almost cried for joy when I was listening to the "who kills more" episode of Skeptoid and Dunning threw the whole debate on its ass and ranted a little bit about what a stupid false dilemma it is.

Offline Kwisatz Haderach

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Re: Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion (2006)
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2008, 11:24:07 AM »
I find it funny when people say that religion leads to violence and atheism is the way out. Just look at that drunk bastard Christopher Hitchens. He uses his extreme form of atheism to advocate the wholesale slaughter of muslims. People must realize it is not religion that causes violence, its fundamentalism (I think a great skeptic once said that).
Srsly, I'm getting sick of that argument.  I almost cried for joy when I was listening to the "who kills more" episode of Skeptoid and Dunning threw the whole debate on its ass and ranted a little bit about what a stupid false dilemma it is.

Yes, that episode was one of Dunning's finest!  :D

Offline spiney

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Re: Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion (2006)
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2008, 12:23:58 PM »
I agree with a lot of what Dawkins says (many will be surprised to hear!).

Had this book been called - something like - "The evils of religious fundamentalism", that would have been great, but unfortunately Dawkins turns it into a dogmatic ranting of his own beliefs, which has the following problems:

1. Religious fanatics and moderates and liberals are all lumped together, as "deluded".

2. Much of this is about USA and Middle East Fundamentalism, but doesn't apply to most religious believers.

3. His presentation of complex theological issues is just caricature (hence, just wrong, to put it bluntly!).

4. Research by Google (instead of consulting actual experts!).

For example ........

http://www.brucealderman.info/blog/2007/03/god-delusion-source-criticism.html

http://www.faithfullyliberal.com/?p=879

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x133176

and so on .........

The general problem is, his representation of religious beliefs is generally a misleading caricature, so even if somebody seriously considers atheism because of this book, they're doing it based on ignorance, which I don't think is too good!
« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 12:28:37 PM by spiney »

Offline Kwisatz Haderach

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Re: Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion (2006)
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2008, 12:28:14 PM »
4. Research by Google (instead of consulting actual experts!).

For example ........

http://www.brucealderman.info/blog/2007/03/god-delusion-source-criticism.html

http://www.faithfullyliberal.com/?p=879

and so on .........


Did you just condemn someone for doing research by Google, and rebut it with more research by Google?

Offline spiney

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Re: Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion (2006)
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2008, 12:31:21 PM »
4. Research by Google (instead of consulting actual experts!).

For example ........

http://www.brucealderman.info/blog/2007/03/god-delusion-source-criticism.html

http://www.faithfullyliberal.com/?p=879

and so on .........


Did you just condemn someone for doing research by Google, and rebut it with more research by Google?

No!

But, his understanding of religion is highly deficient. He did not consult any experts. Good going, for somebody at Oxford University!

Offline cerveauxfrits

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Re: Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion (2006)
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2008, 12:45:52 PM »
Sounds like a bit of a Courtier's Reply to me.

Offline Kwisatz Haderach

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Re: Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion (2006)
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2008, 12:51:53 PM »
Sounds like a bit of a Courtier's Reply to me.

I certainly agree that Dawkins' knowledge of religion is significantly lacking.

What is a "Courtier's Reply?"

Edit: I looked it up; it is basically the accusation that those who know more about religion than Dawkins are the equivalent of courtiers who fawn over an emperor's invisible clothes.  Which is basically just a very sophisticated way of saying, "Nuh-uh!"
« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 12:55:45 PM by Febo »