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Media => Books => Topic started by: Anders on September 08, 2011, 06:52:32 AM

Title: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Anders on September 08, 2011, 06:52:32 AM
And the moral? It's bad to be gay. (http://www.raintaxi.com/online/2011summer/card.shtml)
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: ricree on September 08, 2011, 07:29:26 AM
A Parody (http://scott-lynch.livejournal.com/265746.html)
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Anders on September 08, 2011, 07:41:23 AM
A Parody (http://scott-lynch.livejournal.com/265746.html)

 :roflolmao:
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: WC on September 08, 2011, 11:12:11 AM
Can't say I'm surprised.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Bunsen on September 08, 2011, 11:30:34 AM
It's always cracked me up that Card is such a homophobe, and yet the best scene he ever wrote was about a bunch of naked pre-pubescent boys wrestling in a shower while lathered up.

Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Skeptress on September 08, 2011, 01:25:04 PM
Quote
In this adaptation, Hamlet was never close to his father. The prince is unfazed and emotionally indifferent to the old king's death, feels no sense of betrayal when his mother speedily remarries, and thinks that Claudius will make a perfectly good monarch. Hamlet is also secure in his religious faith, with absolute and unshakable beliefs about the nature of death and the afterlife. He isn't particularly hung up on Ophelia, either. Throughout the novella, Prince Hamlet displays the emotional depth of a blank sheet of paper
.

W.T.F.   >:(

ETA: If you want Shakespeare made more comprehensible I suggest the Charles and Mary Lamb editions.  Very high quality.  Read that then take on the original if it makes you more comfortable.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Halleyscomet on September 28, 2011, 04:48:07 PM
And the moral? It's bad to be gay. (http://www.raintaxi.com/online/2011summer/card.shtml)

That's not the moral. Let's look at Card's version from the viewpoint of Hamlet's father:

Hamlet's father is a lousy king who sexually assaults a number of underage boys. He gets away with this for AT LEAST 20 years, possibly longer. Even though he's murdered by one of his victims, the death is fairly quick. Even AFTER dying he gets to come back as a ghost and bully his son, the one boy he DIDN'T rape, into killing off his surviving victims, thus preserving the dead old pedophile's legacy. To cap it all off the death of Hamlet's father is blamed on Claudius, ensuring that the single surviving victim, Horatio, will be forced to choose between his own execution for treason and murder, or holding his tongue on what Hamlet's father did to him as a kid.

After all of this, Hamlet's father gets to spend eternity raping his own son.

This isn't a condemnation of homosexuality, but a roaring love letter to pedophilia. It might as well have the subtitle "The pedophile triumphant" or "the virtues of raping little boys."

And yes, I'm posting that as an Amazon review of the book.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Bunsen on September 28, 2011, 05:03:50 PM
I suggest the Charles and Mary Lamb editions.

Man, that is one fucked up family.  A woman who stabbed her mother to death in a fit, and the brother who was forced to witness the events.

Great writers, though.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Ah.hell on September 28, 2011, 07:03:01 PM
Ok, so the review makes seem like it will suck but is it that different from "westside story" or "10 things I hate about you"?
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: WC on September 28, 2011, 07:29:55 PM
Card sucks butt. Screw that guy.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Johnny Slick on September 28, 2011, 07:31:36 PM
Ok, so the review makes seem like it will suck but is it that different from "westside story" or "10 things I hate about you"?
Neither of those movies had the hidden moral of "gay sex is wrong pedophilia is awesome"?
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: pandamonium on September 28, 2011, 08:22:50 PM
Quote
It seems to me that we might rather lose our contempt for Bowdler’s attempt to make Shakespeare watchable to the audience of his time, and realize that the standards of taste and decorum change from age to age, and it is not at all unreasonable to make such temporary changes in the script as will allow a play to continue to find an audience—as long as the original remains available, so it can be restored to public view when tastes change again.
But.. Shakespeare is so very tame compared to modern anything that has sex in it... Does Card live in the 50s?
Quote
In this adaptation, Hamlet was never close to his father. The prince is unfazed and emotionally indifferent to the old king's death, feels no sense of betrayal when his mother speedily remarries, and thinks that Claudius will make a perfectly good monarch. Hamlet is also secure in his religious faith, with absolute and unshakable beliefs about the nature of death and the afterlife. He isn't particularly hung up on Ophelia, either. Throughout the novella, Prince Hamlet displays the emotional depth of a blank sheet of paper
.

W.T.F.   >:(

ETA: If you want Shakespeare made more comprehensible I suggest the Charles and Mary Lamb editions.  Very high quality.  Read that then take on the original if it makes you more comfortable.
Also, isn't the whole existential thing kind of a key part of Hamlet? I haven't read or seen the play, so I don't know... but "To be or not to be" is pretty emo.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Halleyscomet on September 30, 2011, 02:11:27 PM
My review has gone live:

What's Card trying to do, recruit pedophiles?, September 28, 2011 (http://www.amazon.com/review/RRBM6KMZR0HB2)

Despite the temptation to be snarky, this is an honest review. The book depicts a life of suffering, misery and death for the victims of pedophilia. The pedophile receives what amounts to an eternity of the very sexual perversions that caused so much misery for his victims. I can't help but wonder what will happen in Card's next book. Will the central character be a serial rapist who receives a lifetime supply of Viagra and diplomatic immunity as "punishment" for his crimes?
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Neon Genesis on September 30, 2011, 03:21:07 PM

This isn't a condemnation of homosexuality, but a roaring love letter to pedophilia. It might as well have the subtitle "The pedophile triumphant" or "the virtues of raping little boys."

And yes, I'm posting that as an Amazon review of the book.
According to Orson Scott Card, everyone secretly knows that homosexuality and pedophilia are the same thing anyway: http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-02-15-1.html (http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-02-15-1.html)
Quote
The dark secret of homosexual society -- the one that dares not speak its name -- is how many homosexuals first entered into that world through a disturbing seduction or rape or molestation or abuse, and how many of them yearn to get out of the homosexual community and live normally.

It's that desire for normality, that discontent with perpetual adolescent sexuality, that is at least partly behind this hunger for homosexual "marriage."

They are unhappy, but they think it's because the rest of us "don't fully accept them."
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: pandamonium on September 30, 2011, 03:40:33 PM
Jesus christ. I tried reading the first in the Alvin Maker series but I just can't. It's so f*cking Mormon it hurts. The protagonist has a work to complete, the female wants to better herself only because it'll help Alvin complete his work (and bettering herself includes making herself more attractive, vomit). The woman has no personaality outside of wanting to be with the man. The man has no drive except wanting to find his holy purpose, and that wouldn't be so bad except there's a scene where he butts up against his mysterious antagonist (who appeared out of no where and who is just some random opposite force; it'd be interesting if the force were a part of Alvin, but that would destroy the precious black and white morality of this story). So, in this scene against the antagonist (who, again, is basically a dumb entity with no will) Alvin is in trouble and he gets out of it based on dumb luck. He's apparently super-powerful and nothing, not even the antagonist can touch him even though Alvin doesn't know what he's doing.

I'm just glad I didn't pay for the book.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: WC on September 30, 2011, 04:03:42 PM
Yes, I'm going to post my Ender books to Mr. Card (after, of course, I line my kitty's litterbox with them for a few weeks). Need to go look up that shipping address.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Jordan on September 30, 2011, 04:13:46 PM
I hate learning how terrible people that I used to look up to are.



But I still love Ender's Game soooooooooooooo much.


I'm not giving it up.




But I'm not buying anything else of Card's.


:( . Why can't people not be ridiculous?
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: pandamonium on September 30, 2011, 04:49:35 PM
Yeah, Ender's Game is awesome, even though some of the rest of the series is a bit dodgy. I've only read the sequel to Ender's Game, I forget the title of it, but I couldn't quite make it through the rest of the series. The two series (Maker and Ender) share similar elements - after the original work, you find out that Ender has a Mission, for instance. Ender is the best of the best and wins even when he shouldn't (I mean, come on, a protagonist that doesn't have any true defeats gets kind of boring) and he wins even when he doesn't (he kills people, but doesn't get in trouble for it, for instance).
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Neon Genesis on September 30, 2011, 11:25:01 PM
Someone tell me Brandon Sanderson is more sane than Orson Scott Card.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: pandamonium on September 30, 2011, 11:26:43 PM
Someone tell me Brandon Sanderson is more sane than Orson Scott Card.
Dude, Brandon Sanderson is the man.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Dionysus on October 01, 2011, 03:34:42 AM
Someone tell me Brandon Sanderson is more sane than Orson Scott Card.

http://brandonsanderson.com/article/51/EUOLogy-Dumbledores-Homosexuality (http://brandonsanderson.com/article/51/EUOLogy-Dumbledores-Homosexuality)

Certainly more sane, but still Mormon. Which means his views on homosexuality are colored by it.

Still an amazing author, though.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: pandamonium on October 01, 2011, 05:26:48 AM
How Mormon is he? Because his first big series featured a female protagonist who kicked ass, took names and became a god. At the very least, it's hard to find Mormon doctrine in his books. And I've read all of them (I think).

Now I'm concerned that the Mormons are trying to take over fantasy. >.<
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Ah.hell on October 01, 2011, 05:44:23 PM
Ok, so the review makes seem like it will suck but is it that different from "westside story" or "10 things I hate about you"?
Neither of those movies had the hidden moral of "gay sex is wrong pedophilia is awesome"?
Assuming the one reviewer wasn't reading a little to much in between the lines.  I really can't comment on his anti-gay agenda has I haven't read the book and have no plans to.  I gave up on Card years ago. 

@Panda,

Isn't one of there beliefs that all good mormons go on to become a god of there own planet.  Sounds very mormon to me.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: WC on October 01, 2011, 06:30:21 PM
Isn't one of there beliefs that all good mormons go on to become a god of there own planet.  Sounds very mormon to me.

Mormon "cosmology" is a many silly thing. If you see one (a mormon) have them whiteboard it for you, or chalkboard it (remember Glenn Beck's chalkboards? Yeah... Mormons need room to spread out the crazy... The chalkboards are a Wardhouse thing). If you find a sharp one (mormon), he could (and it's always gonna be a he, because the Aaronotic priesthood is the diagraming program) might be able to sum it all up on a legal pad right there on the spot.

But yes, planethood dominion in the Celestial Kingdom... Eventually. There is still a lot of red tape and polygamous hoops to jump through in the afterlife.

If you're feeling plucky, ask about their archeological efforts in S. America, or the where the location of Eden is (Illinois), or the genetic evidence linking jewness to native americans, or about the Moon Men or the Sun People... Or about God's home planet Kolob, or is it Cobalt? Crap, I'm mixing up Mormon story time with another sci fi franchise. You know, the North Star... That one... That is where God lives.

But speaking of which, Battlestar Galactica anyone?
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: pandamonium on October 01, 2011, 06:40:21 PM
Ok, so the review makes seem like it will suck but is it that different from "westside story" or "10 things I hate about you"?
Neither of those movies had the hidden moral of "gay sex is wrong pedophilia is awesome"?
Assuming the one reviewer wasn't reading a little to much in between the lines.  I really can't comment on his anti-gay agenda has I haven't read the book and have no plans to.  I gave up on Card years ago. 

@Panda,

Isn't one of there beliefs that all good mormons go on to become a god of there own planet.  Sounds very mormon to me.
I don't want to spoil the series, but the female protagonist I mentioned doesn't stay a god (and her male counterpart/lover is never as powerful as she is). And it's fantasy, people in fantasy get superpowerful all the time. Plus, sanderson doesn't beat you over the head about it. His characters are very genuine, fallable, and unlike Cards' characters, have conflicts. Sandderson might not be a crazy Mormon, either (not-crazy Mormons exist). And a huge difference between sanderson and Card is that the females in his stories have a purpose outside of being the perfect mate for their men. It's actually possible that the women end up saving the day.

I'm not saying any anti-gay opinions Sanderson has are okay because of other characteristics, he's just a way better story-teller than Card.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Dionysus on October 01, 2011, 07:08:00 PM
Panda, you have to realize that every author injects their personal beliefs into their stories. There's a ton of Mormon/religious symbolism in the Mistborn trilogy and Elantris, it just so happens that those of us outside of the Mormon religion just aren't well versed enough in Mormon theology to spot them while we're reading. Just for that reason, I don't think Sanderson is any better an author than Card. I think they both have talent, it's just easier for us to spot Card's religiosity.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Sordid on October 01, 2011, 07:16:35 PM
Quote
It seems to me that we might rather lose our contempt for Bowdler’s attempt to make Shakespeare watchable to the audience of his time, and realize that the standards of taste and decorum change from age to age, and it is not at all unreasonable to make such temporary changes in the script as will allow a play to continue to find an audience.

Yeeeaaah, because Shakespeare really has a tough time finding an audience and could really do with a popularity boost.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: PANTS! on October 01, 2011, 09:45:22 PM
Card had a Series called the Homecoming saga that is ostensibly a science fiction series, but may as well be a rewriting of the book of Mormon. God is an AI that lives in a satellite and can communicate telepathically only with certain people. Jealous tribesmen then force these special people to leave.

The goal of the AI is to get them to a new planet that they can rule over.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Dionysus on October 01, 2011, 09:50:53 PM
Yeah, for better or for worse, Card is just more obvious.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: pandamonium on October 01, 2011, 10:13:30 PM
Yeah, for better or for worse, Card is just more obvious.
Yeah, that was my point. :P I don't even have a problem with the Mormon flavoring in fantasy stories, because that's what religion is anyway. It's just the beating-you-over-the-head with black and white morality and one-dimensional characters that really gets under my skin.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: PANTS! on October 01, 2011, 10:19:30 PM
Yeah that's what it really boils down to here. His writing is / became shitty.

Trouble is since he pours so much politics into his books, when you accuse him of writing one dimensional characters, it's easy to see that as an attack on the politics that character is baciscally put into the story to embody.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: pandamonium on October 01, 2011, 10:21:50 PM
Yeah that's what it really boils down to here. His writing is / became shitty.

Trouble is since he pours so much politics into his books, when you accuse him of writing one dimensional characters, it's easy to see that as an attack on the politics that character is baciscally put into the story to embody.
Then he needs to make it more obvious that's what he's doing. There have been successful writers who've used one-dimensional characters effectively. Just not Card.

I think I'm just bitter because I can see a lot of potential in the Maker series, and without the Mormon idiocy, it'd be pretty awesome.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Anders on October 02, 2011, 03:46:49 AM
I think I see the problem, Panda. You are an unmarried woman over 20 who reads. Get a man to complete you, get into the kitchen, and get started on multiplying and populating the Earth. The only books a woman should read are cookbooks.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: pandamonium on October 02, 2011, 03:06:38 PM
I think I see the problem, Panda. You are an unmarried woman over 20 who reads. Get a man to complete you, get into the kitchen, and get started on multiplying and populating the Earth. The only books a woman should read are cookbooks.
I BANE U FORM TEH BORDS.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Bunsen on October 02, 2011, 07:24:10 PM
I BANE U FORM TEH BORDS.

There we go.  That's more like the kind of literacy one would expect... from a woman.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Skeptress on October 02, 2011, 10:49:20 PM
I suggest the Charles and Mary Lamb editions.

Man, that is one fucked up family.  A woman who stabbed her mother to death in a fit, and the brother who was forced to witness the events.

Great writers, though.

I had no idea.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Skeptress on October 02, 2011, 10:50:47 PM
Quote
It seems to me that we might rather lose our contempt for Bowdler’s attempt to make Shakespeare watchable to the audience of his time, and realize that the standards of taste and decorum change from age to age, and it is not at all unreasonable to make such temporary changes in the script as will allow a play to continue to find an audience—as long as the original remains available, so it can be restored to public view when tastes change again.
But.. Shakespeare is so very tame compared to modern anything that has sex in it... Does Card live in the 50s?
Quote
In this adaptation, Hamlet was never close to his father. The prince is unfazed and emotionally indifferent to the old king's death, feels no sense of betrayal when his mother speedily remarries, and thinks that Claudius will make a perfectly good monarch. Hamlet is also secure in his religious faith, with absolute and unshakable beliefs about the nature of death and the afterlife. He isn't particularly hung up on Ophelia, either. Throughout the novella, Prince Hamlet displays the emotional depth of a blank sheet of paper
.

W.T.F.   >:(

ETA: If you want Shakespeare made more comprehensible I suggest the Charles and Mary Lamb editions.  Very high quality.  Read that then take on the original if it makes you more comfortable.
Also, isn't the whole existential thing kind of a key part of Hamlet? I haven't read or seen the play, so I don't know... but "To be or not to be" is pretty emo.

The key is that Card sees Hamlet as having "unshakable" beliefs.  Hamlet had no idea whether it was better to struggle and live or give-up and die.  He was tortured by living but tortured by the thought of what may lie beyond death. 
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: amysrevenge on October 03, 2011, 12:28:06 PM
I like Ender's Game, therefore

(http://images1.cpcache.com/product/109079141v4_480x480_Front.jpg)
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Halleyscomet on October 03, 2011, 12:41:49 PM
I like Ender's Game, therefore

(http://images1.cpcache.com/product/109079141v4_480x480_Front.jpg)

Mark Twain was a racist asshat when it came to Native Americans. Does that mean Huck Finn should be discarded?
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: amysrevenge on October 03, 2011, 12:45:29 PM
Mark Twain was a racist asshat when it came to Native Americans. Does that mean Huck Finn should be discarded?

Nah, but it means I enjoy it more if I pretend I didn't know that.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Johnny Slick on October 03, 2011, 01:35:45 PM
Mark Twain's viewpoint doesn't make Huck Finn not readable but it might mitigate his portrayal of the "Injun" in Tom Sawyer.  But sure, lots of historical writers held viewpoints which would be pretty abhorrent today and it doesn't make their work unreadable.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Halleyscomet on October 03, 2011, 02:21:30 PM
Mark Twain's viewpoint doesn't make Huck Finn not readable but it might mitigate his portrayal of the "Injun" in Tom Sawyer.  But sure, lots of historical writers held viewpoints which would be pretty abhorrent today and it doesn't make their work unreadable.

I think it adds some fascinating insights into Huck Finn, Tom Sawyer and Roughing It. The last work is the one with the most racist content about Native Americans.

Part of what we learn from Twain's selective racism is how people influence each other. The characters in all three books were based on real people that Twain knew. Twain's autobiographies say more about it, but the thumbnail is there was a real slave, beloved by the neighborhood children, when Twain was growing up. Twain's experiences with this man basted his racism to atoms. A real world criminal who happened to have one Native American parent cemented Twain's racism towards Native Americans as firmly as it it were carved into the bedrock. In both cases, the racism of one man was profoundly influenced by the behavior of another.

This poses some disturbing questions about Card's childhood. In other writing Card equates homosexuality with pedophilia. His lackluster, disingenuous "defense" of his Hamlet rewrite is a clumsy effort to sidestep this issue. Why does Card have such animosity towards homosexuals and why is he so determined to connect it to pedophilia? Could this be mere cultural and religious conditioning, or is there a deeper, more personal cause? The shower scene in "Ender's Game" has the feel of a real incident that befell a child. In the book there's a clumsy victory for the hero, where he accidentally kills his assailant. This is a common fantasy for rape victims. The trauma is relived, but with a different outcome. Could Card be trying to tell us something about his own childhood? Having been raped by a pedophile when he was a youth himself would certainly cement a young man's hatred.

Was Orson Scott Card really molested when he was a child, or is he merely trying to give that impression with his writing?

And what of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern? In Card's version, Being raped as children turned both men into homosexuals. Could Card himself be struggling with homosexual desires, desperately trying to blame them upon the traumatic events of his own past?
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Johnny Slick on October 03, 2011, 02:44:34 PM
FWIW Card also wrote a chilling and very good short story called, I think, "Euripides In The Fourth-Floor Lavatory". It's also about divine justice meted out to a pedophile. I really, really don't generally enjoy the whole "let's find things that happened in an author's life and then attribute them to his work" game, as in an ideal world there should be nothing outside of the text itself, but sure, it would not surprise me if something was done to him or someone he knew as a child.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: PANTS! on October 03, 2011, 07:34:25 PM
Well Card is from my hometown. And he would show up at conventions for a while. Or occasionally I would see him around town. And while I can not speak for him in any way, nor doni know nothing for a fact. But he certainly pings the gaydar like a fleet of aircraft carriers.

I always assumed he was gay until I read his screed in the Rhino Times. The local conservative rag.

Anyway, anecdotes and all. Take em for what it's worth.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: WC on October 04, 2011, 12:39:39 AM
It all comes full circle to the Mormons, dun't it? In Roughing It, Twain travels through Mormon Territory and documents polyg SLC. Fascinating stuff.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: Halleyscomet on October 04, 2011, 10:10:46 AM
It all comes full circle to the Mormons, dun't it? In Roughing It, Twain travels through Mormon Territory and documents polyg SLC. Fascinating stuff.

"Documents" is not quite the right term. "Mocks mercilessly" is a better term, especially for the section detailing the effects of a single child in a Mormon household getting a tin whistle from a stranger, and all the kid's half siblings demanding one as well.

The section on Valley Tan is interesting as well.
Title: Re: Orson Scott Card rewrites Shakespeare
Post by: WC on October 04, 2011, 11:52:34 AM
Indeed.