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General Discussions => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 27, 2018, 01:56:49 PM

Title: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 27, 2018, 01:56:49 PM
Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?

Humans are the most altruistic and good of all the animal species, yet at present, our rich and powerful allow the poorest of us to starve to death by hoarding their wealth. This is unheard of in the animal world.

https://www.upworthy.com/9-out-of-10-americans-are-completely-wrong-about-this-mind-blowing-fact-2

Generally speaking, in ancient days the rich and powerful insured that the poor were taken care of to the best of their ability.  In the past, the rank and file demanded that the rich and powerful live up to that good altruistic trait by revolting against them. The French Revolution is a good example of this. Have the rank and file lost their altruistic and good characters by allowing the rich and powerful to let people starve to death while doing nothing?

Are the notions of liberty, equality, and fraternity dead in the world?

Is mankind at the point of losing the altruistic instincts that has made us the greatest animal that the world has ever produced?

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: amysrevenge on November 27, 2018, 02:10:43 PM
Generally speaking, in ancient days the rich and powerful insured that the poor were taken care of to the best of their ability.

That's a bold claim.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: 2397 on November 27, 2018, 02:41:07 PM
It's always up to the masses to demand fair treatment, or to directly seize assets. The people with power and their own armies will take what they can, others have to stop them.

Wealth inequality is increasing because we're allowing the ideas of trickle-down and magical job creators to take hold, as if prosperity is impossible without giving the rich extremely favorable treatment. And as if they're irreplaceable. If they leave over having to pay enough tax for society to be able to pay for its services and programs, somehow no one else will know how jobs work, including the many, many people who worked in those jobs and varying levels of management.

And as if others wouldn't take advantage of the market that's opened up by those who leave.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 27, 2018, 03:11:03 PM
Generally speaking, in ancient days the rich and powerful insured that the poor were taken care of to the best of their ability.

That's a bold claim.

Not really. Slavery was how they did it.

It was that or live in constant fear of thievery or worse.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 27, 2018, 03:15:42 PM
It's always up to the masses to demand fair treatment, or to directly seize assets. The people with power and their own armies will take what they can, others have to stop them.

Wealth inequality is increasing because we're allowing the ideas of trickle-down and magical job creators to take hold, as if prosperity is impossible without giving the rich extremely favorable treatment. And as if they're irreplaceable. If they leave over having to pay enough tax for society to be able to pay for its services and programs, somehow no one else will know how jobs work, including the many, many people who worked in those jobs and varying levels of management.

And as if others wouldn't take advantage of the market that's opened up by those who leave.

It would seem that the masses then have lost their altruistic quality to where we allow starvation and hardship.

You may be right as we have been asked to act by many over time but refuse.

Remember this old film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGIY5Vyj4YM

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: amysrevenge on November 27, 2018, 04:06:48 PM
Generally speaking, in ancient days the rich and powerful insured that the poor were taken care of to the best of their ability.

That's a bold claim.

Not really. Slavery was how they did it.

It was that or live in constant fear of thievery or worse.

Regards
DL

Another a bold claim (that this is a moral 180 from the rich of today).
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: arthwollipot on November 27, 2018, 04:09:11 PM
I am absolutely 100% certain that many of the rich and powerful would and do use slave labour today where they think they can get away with it.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 27, 2018, 04:16:40 PM
Generally speaking, in ancient days the rich and powerful insured that the poor were taken care of to the best of their ability.

That's a bold claim.

Not really. Slavery was how they did it.

It was that or live in constant fear of thievery or worse.

Regards
DL

Another a bold claim (that this is a moral 180 from the rich of today).

Our governments and security forces are better than in ancient days and their gated communities protect them well.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 27, 2018, 04:20:57 PM
I am absolutely 100% certain that many of the rich and powerful would and do use slave labour today where they think they can get away with it.

They are not alone if you count the sex slaves that are known to be in every major city center in the world.

Slavery, while at the lowest per capita stats we have ever enjoyed, is still alive and well.

That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

If we leave slavery as illegal, we leave the slaves out in the cold.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: arthwollipot on November 27, 2018, 04:36:08 PM
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

I'm sorry, can you say that again?
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: CarbShark on November 27, 2018, 04:42:47 PM
Generally speaking, in ancient days the rich and powerful insured that the poor were taken care of to the best of their ability.

That's a false bold claim.

FTFY
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: 2397 on November 27, 2018, 04:52:50 PM
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

I'm sorry, can you say that again?

If slavery is illegal, only criminals will have slaves?

The problem with slavery is dealt with by banning it, and instituting reasonable minimum wages or in other ways having work authorities that inspect and ensure that workers aren't being exploited. You also have to stop using prison labor outside of rehabilitation efforts. I.e. it can't be used because it's cheap and underpaid, it can't be allowed to be invested in by private parties, because that incentivizes putting people in prison for labor.

For people unable to work or find work, there needs to be a minimum standard for what they will have access to (shelter, food, healthcare, emergency services and legal aid), so that they're not forced into crime or illegal work to survive.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: random poet on November 27, 2018, 05:36:59 PM
"We keep slaves for their own good" is some fucking apologist bullshit, the likes of which we have not heard since the War of Secession. You oughta be ashamed.

Thinking we can't fight slavery without having it be legal is the most backwards, wrongheaded thing I've heard in 100 years.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on November 27, 2018, 05:55:15 PM
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

Your concept of ancient slavery doesn't match anything I've ever seen, conflicts with a great deal of what I've seen.  How did you develop this impression?
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: arthwollipot on November 27, 2018, 06:18:52 PM
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

Your concept of ancient slavery doesn't match anything I've ever seen, conflicts with a great deal of what I've seen.  How did you develop this impression?

It's a common enough talking point used by fundamentalist Christians when attempting to explain why slavery is not condemned in the Bible. But this is the first time I've seen someone actually supporting the re-legalisation of slavery in public.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: swan on November 27, 2018, 06:50:57 PM
Altruism isn't all that it's cracked up to be: Rationally Speaking #221: Rob Reich (no, not THAT Robert Reich) on "Is philanthropy bad for democracy?" (http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/show/rs-221-rob-reich-on-is-philanthropy-bad-for-democracy.html)

It's a bit painful to listen to as he stumbles his way towards his points… and he misses some obvious examples (like making universities create CAM schools), but in the end even a picky listener like me found it worth the effort.

That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.
Your concept of ancient slavery doesn't match anything I've ever seen, conflicts with a great deal of what I've seen.  How did you develop this impression?

Wasn't that how it worked on the Roman planet in an old episode of Star Trek? ;)
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: daniel1948 on November 28, 2018, 10:25:39 AM
In ancient days, the powerful made themselves rich by taking everything away from everyone else. It was generally in their interest to keep the poor alive (but just barely) so they'd have people to take stuff from. Today, the powerful take everything they can from everyone else, but in an overpopulated industrialized market economy there is an excess of workers so the powerful don't care if some starve to death.

The solution is not to restore legal slavery. The solution is to eat the rich. It won't happen though, because the rich are too well organized and the poor are constantly at each other's throats.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: BilLumberg on November 28, 2018, 12:26:01 PM
Trickle down can work. We just need to wait a little longer. Rich people just need to be a little bit richer. Once they are rich enough the floodgates will open and all the worlds problems will be solved.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Ah.hell on November 28, 2018, 12:50:56 PM
I would like to see some support for the behavior of the rich and powerful being any better in "ancient days".

Go back far enough and there weren't any rich and powerful, hunter gather's tend to be much less stratified than modern societies.  Sure, but ancient emperor's thought charity was giving workers back a little grain in exchange for labor in buildign monuments.

So, Gnostic.

A, What is your basis for the claim that ancient rich people were more altruistic?
B. Evidence that slavery was somehow altruistic in some society of the past?
C. Evidence that we moderns allow more starvation than the ancients.


Also, please define "ancient days."
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: swan on November 28, 2018, 02:21:50 PM
The Extra Credits video on Pellagra (http://Pellagra) (caused by niacin deficiency) – when Southern politicians actively fought against free federal food aid for the poor because it would make them look bad – drove home the point about how downright evil "civilized" wealthy people can be. (Nice bit of science denial there too.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reYKBgdrZsM
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 29, 2018, 04:28:41 PM
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

I'm sorry, can you say that again?

We cannot protect or set standards for slaves if we do not make slavery legal.

We have been fighting it for many years fruitlessly.

It is either continue doing the same thing while expecting a different result, which is described as insanity, --- or changing our tact.

What would you suggest?

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 29, 2018, 04:38:36 PM
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

Your concept of ancient slavery doesn't match anything I've ever seen, conflicts with a great deal of what I've seen.  How did you develop this impression?

By trying to dither out why none of the religions or ancient governments outlawed slavery and remembering how many countries, including the U.S. after slavery was abolished, instituted a number of laws to protect the serfs from abuse by their new masters, eh employers that is.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 29, 2018, 04:45:33 PM
Altruism isn't all that it's cracked up to be: Rationally Speaking #221: Rob Reich (no, not THAT Robert Reich) on "Is philanthropy bad for democracy?" (http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/show/rs-221-rob-reich-on-is-philanthropy-bad-for-democracy.html)

It's a bit painful to listen to as he stumbles his way towards his points… and he misses some obvious examples (like making universities create CAM schools), but in the end even a picky listener like me found it worth the effort.

That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.
Your concept of ancient slavery doesn't match anything I've ever seen, conflicts with a great deal of what I've seen.  How did you develop this impression?

Wasn't that how it worked on the Roman planet in an old episode of Star Trek? ;)

Many think we live in democracies despite all the evidence that we live in oligarchies.

That aside, I just found this guy who has some decent ideas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Kqdx3ft77Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmKZNPdWzq4

I will give your link a look Thanks for it.

I find myself basically agreeing with that speaker you linked as I see many of the charitable foundations for philanthropy to be more of tax havens than real philanthropic entities. Once formed, they want to survive more than help over the long run.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: moj on November 29, 2018, 04:49:21 PM
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

I'm sorry, can you say that again?

We cannot protect or set standards for slaves if we do not make slavery legal.

We have been fighting it for many years fruitlessly.

It is either continue doing the same thing while expecting a different result, which is described as insanity, --- or changing our tact.

What would you suggest?

Regards
DL

Maybe, just maybe not having slaves while at the same time  adhering to basic human rights. Crazy, I know. Automation will bring cheaper more efficient labor than slaves without any of the barbarism of slavery.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 29, 2018, 04:51:36 PM
In ancient days, the powerful made themselves rich by taking everything away from everyone else. It was generally in their interest to keep the poor alive (but just barely) so they'd have people to take stuff from. Today, the powerful take everything they can from everyone else, but in an overpopulated industrialized market economy there is an excess of workers so the powerful don't care if some starve to death.

The solution is not to restore legal slavery. The solution is to eat the rich. It won't happen though, because the rich are too well organized and the poor are constantly at each other's throats.

I note that you give no role to those who are supposed to have the public at heart. The governments.

I agree that hardly anyone give a damn for the condition of our full demography.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: arthwollipot on November 29, 2018, 04:53:04 PM
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

I'm sorry, can you say that again?

We cannot protect or set standards for slaves if we do not make slavery legal.

We have been fighting it for many years fruitlessly.

It is either continue doing the same thing while expecting a different result, which is described as insanity, --- or changing our tact.

What would you suggest?

Regards
DL

Slavery is inherently an abusive and exploitative practice. Even if in your naively idealistic scenario people were encouraged to treat slaves well, there would still be people who would treat them badly just because they can. How are you going to enforce such "altruistic" slavery? In addition, even in such a scenario where a slave is being treated well, it's still abuse and exploitation because that is the nature of slavery.

Are we ever going to get rid of slavery completely? Are we ever going to get rid of murder completely? Of course we aren't. But we can still stamp it out wherever it is found, prosecute the perpetrators to the full extent of the law, and stand up and speak out against the abusers and exploiters who are continuing the practice, because it is abhorrent to human nature and civilisation. And you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that it should be legal.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 29, 2018, 04:53:32 PM
Trickle down can work. We just need to wait a little longer. Rich people just need to be a little bit richer. Once they are rich enough the floodgates will open and all the worlds problems will be solved.

Trickle down is good. Trickle up is a lot better.

To tell a starving person to just be patient is quite the advice.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 29, 2018, 04:57:58 PM
I would like to see some support for the behavior of the rich and powerful being any better in "ancient days".

Go back far enough and there weren't any rich and powerful, hunter gather's tend to be much less stratified than modern societies.  Sure, but ancient emperor's thought charity was giving workers back a little grain in exchange for labor in buildign monuments.

So, Gnostic.

A, What is your basis for the claim that ancient rich people were more altruistic?
B. Evidence that slavery was somehow altruistic in some society of the past?
C. Evidence that we moderns allow more starvation than the ancients.


Also, please define "ancient days."

The ancients had to be more altruistic because they could not hide as easily as today.

Slavery was a part of altruism because if those with wealth did not have them as slaves, they would have had them as thieves trying to take what the rich would not give.

We do not allow more starvation but do allow starvation that we could eliminate by funnelling more goods down to them.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: CarbShark on November 29, 2018, 05:12:02 PM
I would like to see some support for the behavior of the rich and powerful being any better in "ancient days".

Go back far enough and there weren't any rich and powerful, hunter gather's tend to be much less stratified than modern societies.  Sure, but ancient emperor's thought charity was giving workers back a little grain in exchange for labor in buildign monuments.

So, Gnostic.

A, What is your basis for the claim that ancient rich people were more altruistic?
B. Evidence that slavery was somehow altruistic in some society of the past?
C. Evidence that we moderns allow more starvation than the ancients.


Also, please define "ancient days."

The ancients had to be more altruistic because they could not hide as easily as today.

Slavery was a part of altruism because if those with wealth did not have them as slaves, they would have had them as thieves trying to take what the rich would not give.

We do not allow more starvation but do allow starvation that we could eliminate by funnelling more goods down to them.

Nope.  Slavery for the ancients was usually the result of military defeat. It's not like they went down to their version of skid row and picked out a few slaves to help with the harvest. 

Slavery is in essence the opposite of altruism.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Ah.hell on November 29, 2018, 05:14:35 PM
I would like to see some support for the behavior of the rich and powerful being any better in "ancient days".

Go back far enough and there weren't any rich and powerful, hunter gather's tend to be much less stratified than modern societies.  Sure, but ancient emperor's thought charity was giving workers back a little grain in exchange for labor in buildign monuments.

So, Gnostic.

A, What is your basis for the claim that ancient rich people were more altruistic?
B. Evidence that slavery was somehow altruistic in some society of the past?
C. Evidence that we moderns allow more starvation than the ancients.


Also, please define "ancient days."

The ancients had to be more altruistic because they could not hide as easily as today.

Slavery was a part of altruism because if those with wealth did not have them as slaves, they would have had them as thieves trying to take what the rich would not give.

We do not allow more starvation but do allow starvation that we could eliminate by funnelling more goods down to them.

Regards
DL
That is not actually supporting evidence, its just assertions on your part that basically repeat your previous assertions. 

What definition of altruism are you using? 
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: random poet on November 29, 2018, 05:16:02 PM
And also who the hell are these "ancients" you keep talking about? It sounds like you don't know anything about history, from any given period or place.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 29, 2018, 05:19:25 PM
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

I'm sorry, can you say that again?

We cannot protect or set standards for slaves if we do not make slavery legal.

We have been fighting it for many years fruitlessly.

It is either continue doing the same thing while expecting a different result, which is described as insanity, --- or changing our tact.

What would you suggest?

Regards
DL

Maybe, just maybe not having slaves while at the same time  adhering to basic human rights. Crazy, I know. Automation will bring cheaper more efficient labor than slaves without any of the barbarism of slavery.

The vast majority of slavery these days in the countries that can automate the jobs where slaves are still used are sex slaves. I do not see how we could automate that. At least not yet. The other areas where slaves are used, are poor areas where automation is not practical. Especially where indentured or seasonal workers are imported.

In those places, other legislation has to get by the bribes to stop the legislations.

Those workers end in singing ----

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIfu2A0ezq0

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 29, 2018, 05:22:58 PM
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

I'm sorry, can you say that again?

We cannot protect or set standards for slaves if we do not make slavery legal.

We have been fighting it for many years fruitlessly.

It is either continue doing the same thing while expecting a different result, which is described as insanity, --- or changing our tact.

What would you suggest?

Regards
DL

Slavery is inherently an abusive and exploitative practice. Even if in your naively idealistic scenario people were encouraged to treat slaves well, there would still be people who would treat them badly just because they can. How are you going to enforce such "altruistic" slavery? In addition, even in such a scenario where a slave is being treated well, it's still abuse and exploitation because that is the nature of slavery.

Are we ever going to get rid of slavery completely? Are we ever going to get rid of murder completely? Of course we aren't. But we can still stamp it out wherever it is found, prosecute the perpetrators to the full extent of the law, and stand up and speak out against the abusers and exploiters who are continuing the practice, because it is abhorrent to human nature and civilisation. And you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that it should be legal.

So you want to continue to do the same thing while expecting a different result.

Ok. Insane.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: arthwollipot on November 29, 2018, 05:27:40 PM
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

I'm sorry, can you say that again?

We cannot protect or set standards for slaves if we do not make slavery legal.

We have been fighting it for many years fruitlessly.

It is either continue doing the same thing while expecting a different result, which is described as insanity, --- or changing our tact.

What would you suggest?

Regards
DL

Slavery is inherently an abusive and exploitative practice. Even if in your naively idealistic scenario people were encouraged to treat slaves well, there would still be people who would treat them badly just because they can. How are you going to enforce such "altruistic" slavery? In addition, even in such a scenario where a slave is being treated well, it's still abuse and exploitation because that is the nature of slavery.

Are we ever going to get rid of slavery completely? Are we ever going to get rid of murder completely? Of course we aren't. But we can still stamp it out wherever it is found, prosecute the perpetrators to the full extent of the law, and stand up and speak out against the abusers and exploiters who are continuing the practice, because it is abhorrent to human nature and civilisation. And you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that it should be legal.

So you want to continue to do the same thing while expecting a different result.

Ok. Insane.

Regards
DL

I can't believe that I have to explain this in 2018. Slavery is bad. It should never again be legal. Even doing nothing is better than making it legal again.

If you believe otherwise, you are bad at being a human.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 29, 2018, 05:32:12 PM
I would like to see some support for the behavior of the rich and powerful being any better in "ancient days".

Go back far enough and there weren't any rich and powerful, hunter gather's tend to be much less stratified than modern societies.  Sure, but ancient emperor's thought charity was giving workers back a little grain in exchange for labor in buildign monuments.

So, Gnostic.

A, What is your basis for the claim that ancient rich people were more altruistic?
B. Evidence that slavery was somehow altruistic in some society of the past?
C. Evidence that we moderns allow more starvation than the ancients.


Also, please define "ancient days."

The ancients had to be more altruistic because they could not hide as easily as today.

Slavery was a part of altruism because if those with wealth did not have them as slaves, they would have had them as thieves trying to take what the rich would not give.

We do not allow more starvation but do allow starvation that we could eliminate by funnelling more goods down to them.

Nope.  Slavery for the ancients was usually the result of military defeat. It's not like they went down to their version of skid row and picked out a few slaves to help with the harvest. 

Slavery is in essence the opposite of altruism.

No. It was the old form of welfare. 

That is why the religions of that day did not speak against them and even endorsed it the way the bible does.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 29, 2018, 05:34:21 PM
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

I'm sorry, can you say that again?

We cannot protect or set standards for slaves if we do not make slavery legal.

We have been fighting it for many years fruitlessly.

It is either continue doing the same thing while expecting a different result, which is described as insanity, --- or changing our tact.

What would you suggest?

Regards
DL

Slavery is inherently an abusive and exploitative practice. Even if in your naively idealistic scenario people were encouraged to treat slaves well, there would still be people who would treat them badly just because they can. How are you going to enforce such "altruistic" slavery? In addition, even in such a scenario where a slave is being treated well, it's still abuse and exploitation because that is the nature of slavery.

Are we ever going to get rid of slavery completely? Are we ever going to get rid of murder completely? Of course we aren't. But we can still stamp it out wherever it is found, prosecute the perpetrators to the full extent of the law, and stand up and speak out against the abusers and exploiters who are continuing the practice, because it is abhorrent to human nature and civilisation. And you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that it should be legal.

So you want to continue to do the same thing while expecting a different result.

Ok. Insane.

Regards
DL

I can't believe that I have to explain this in 2018. Slavery is bad. It should never again be legal. Even doing nothing is better than making it legal again.

If you believe otherwise, you are bad at being a human.

He says while I want to bring them out of the cold and protect them under the law while you would leave them out in the cold.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: arthwollipot on November 29, 2018, 05:46:25 PM
That is why I think slavery, as in ancient days, should be legal so that we as societies can protect slaves and have laws like we used to to protect serfs.

I'm sorry, can you say that again?

We cannot protect or set standards for slaves if we do not make slavery legal.

We have been fighting it for many years fruitlessly.

It is either continue doing the same thing while expecting a different result, which is described as insanity, --- or changing our tact.

What would you suggest?

Regards
DL

Slavery is inherently an abusive and exploitative practice. Even if in your naively idealistic scenario people were encouraged to treat slaves well, there would still be people who would treat them badly just because they can. How are you going to enforce such "altruistic" slavery? In addition, even in such a scenario where a slave is being treated well, it's still abuse and exploitation because that is the nature of slavery.

Are we ever going to get rid of slavery completely? Are we ever going to get rid of murder completely? Of course we aren't. But we can still stamp it out wherever it is found, prosecute the perpetrators to the full extent of the law, and stand up and speak out against the abusers and exploiters who are continuing the practice, because it is abhorrent to human nature and civilisation. And you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that it should be legal.

So you want to continue to do the same thing while expecting a different result.

Ok. Insane.

Regards
DL

I can't believe that I have to explain this in 2018. Slavery is bad. It should never again be legal. Even doing nothing is better than making it legal again.

If you believe otherwise, you are bad at being a human.

He says while I want to bring them out of the cold and protect them under the law while you would leave them out in the cold.

Regards
DL

No. I want to stamp out slavery wherever it lurks. It is a blight on civilisation. A thoroughly evil practice that does nothing but degrade and devalue its victims. You want to perpetrate it. Disgusting.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Ah.hell on November 29, 2018, 05:49:49 PM
There isn't much point in a conversation in which one party just keeps making unsubstantiated assertions, speaks platitudes, and uses ill defined terms with little or no meaning. 
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: arthwollipot on November 29, 2018, 05:59:44 PM
There isn't much point in a conversation in which one party just keeps making unsubstantiated assertions, speaks platitudes, and uses ill defined terms with little or no meaning.

Not to mention one who outright supports and calls for the legalisation of one of the most evil practices humankind ever had the misfortune to think up.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: CarbShark on November 29, 2018, 07:05:33 PM
I would like to see some support for the behavior of the rich and powerful being any better in "ancient days".

Go back far enough and there weren't any rich and powerful, hunter gather's tend to be much less stratified than modern societies.  Sure, but ancient emperor's thought charity was giving workers back a little grain in exchange for labor in buildign monuments.

So, Gnostic.

A, What is your basis for the claim that ancient rich people were more altruistic?
B. Evidence that slavery was somehow altruistic in some society of the past?
C. Evidence that we moderns allow more starvation than the ancients.


Also, please define "ancient days."

The ancients had to be more altruistic because they could not hide as easily as today.

Slavery was a part of altruism because if those with wealth did not have them as slaves, they would have had them as thieves trying to take what the rich would not give.

We do not allow more starvation but do allow starvation that we could eliminate by funnelling more goods down to them.

Nope.  Slavery for the ancients was usually the result of military defeat. It's not like they went down to their version of skid row and picked out a few slaves to help with the harvest. 

Slavery is in essence the opposite of altruism.

No. It was the old form of welfare. 

That is why the religions of that day did not speak against them and even endorsed it the way the bible does.


That is nonsense. The religions did not speak against them because they were corrupt and immoral (as always) and they used fear of others and zenophobia to justify war rape torture and slavery.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on November 29, 2018, 07:57:35 PM
By trying to dither out why none of the religions or ancient governments outlawed slavery

This doesn't answer my question.  It's just a non-sequitor rationalization. 

Quote
and remembering how many countries, including the U.S. after slavery was abolished, instituted a number of laws to protect the serfs from abuse by their new masters, eh employers that is.

Read up on US Labor History. It's violent as hell.

Many think we live in democracies despite all the evidence that we live in oligarchies.

False dichotomy.  Every developed economy is oligarchic to one degree or another.  The question is in what ways and to what extents (especially with regards to who's more influential between the oligarchy and the public).


You're taking this as an article of faith and offering us blithe rationalization.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Desert Fox on November 30, 2018, 01:35:57 AM
No. It was the old form of welfare. 

That is why the religions of that day did not speak against them and even endorsed it the way the bible does.

Regards
DL

Ask yourself how you would like being a slave?
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 30, 2018, 11:41:20 AM
By trying to dither out why none of the religions or ancient governments outlawed slavery

This doesn't answer my question.  It's just a non-sequitor rationalization. 

Quote
and remembering how many countries, including the U.S. after slavery was abolished, instituted a number of laws to protect the serfs from abuse by their new masters, eh employers that is.

Read up on US Labor History. It's violent as hell.

Many think we live in democracies despite all the evidence that we live in oligarchies.

False dichotomy.  Every developed economy is oligarchic to one degree or another.  The question is in what ways and to what extents (especially with regards to who's more influential between the oligarchy and the public).


You're taking this as an article of faith and offering us blithe rationalization.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on November 30, 2018, 11:44:52 AM
No. It was the old form of welfare. 

That is why the religions of that day did not speak against them and even endorsed it the way the bible does.

Regards
DL

Ask yourself how you would like being a slave?

What do you think we are all at present as we live in oligarchies?

Some of us are just blind to the field slaves from out position as well kept house slaves.

Do you like George Carlin?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-14SllPPLxY

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on November 30, 2018, 01:21:00 PM
edit: Aw, fuck it. 

P.S. Slavery is bad.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Desert Fox on November 30, 2018, 02:04:30 PM
What do you think we are all at present as we live in oligarchies?

Some of us are just blind to the field slaves from out position as well kept house slaves.

If we were in the wilderness hunting for our families, we would still have responsibilities. 
That is part of life.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: John Albert on December 01, 2018, 02:01:16 PM
What do you think we are all at present as we live in oligarchies?

Some of us are just blind to the field slaves from out position as well kept house slaves.

I see what you did there, equating "slavery" as metaphor for the need to contribute work in exchange for participation in society, with human traffickers exerting total domination over a sub-class of human beings and their descendants in perpetuity.

Seems like a bit of a stretch.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on December 10, 2018, 01:54:52 PM
What do you think we are all at present as we live in oligarchies?

Some of us are just blind to the field slaves from out position as well kept house slaves.

I see what you did there, equating "slavery" as metaphor for the need to contribute work in exchange for participation in society, with human traffickers exerting total domination over a sub-class of human beings and their descendants in perpetuity.

Seems like a bit of a stretch.

I see what you did there.

Indeed. That was your doing and not mine.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: arthwollipot on December 10, 2018, 06:31:45 PM
What do you think we are all at present as we live in oligarchies?

Some of us are just blind to the field slaves from out position as well kept house slaves.

I see what you did there, equating "slavery" as metaphor for the need to contribute work in exchange for participation in society, with human traffickers exerting total domination over a sub-class of human beings and their descendants in perpetuity.

Seems like a bit of a stretch.

I see what you did there.

Indeed. That was your doing and not mine.

Regards
DL

Was John Albert wrong? Are you talking about the literal owning of human beings as property?
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on December 12, 2018, 01:28:28 PM

Was John Albert wrong? Are you talking about the literal owning of human beings as property?

Slavery is generally described as ownership of the slave, yes.

If illegal, that can happen. If legal, we could devise rules and protections for slaves the same way they were protected in the distant past. Beating rules, time limits of servitude etc.

At present, we are not acknowledging or protecting our slaved populations.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: haudace on December 13, 2018, 06:47:05 AM
Ah, you are on the right track. Why stop there?

Let's legalize rape, we could provide condoms and a safe environment to the victims.

Let's legalize murder, to ensure victims are slaughtered in the most humane way.

Let's legalize female genital mutilation, so girls are under anesthesia when their clitoris is removed.

Absurd trolling.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: Gnostic Christian Bishop on December 13, 2018, 03:38:12 PM
Ah, you are on the right track. Why stop there?

Let's legalize rape, we could provide condoms and a safe environment to the victims.

Let's legalize murder, to ensure victims are slaughtered in the most humane way.

Let's legalize female genital mutilation, so girls are under anesthesia when their clitoris is removed.

Absurd trolling.

Yes you do, but I agree with your last. That would be better than the nothing we now do for those girls, just like the nothing we do for modern slaves.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: moj on December 13, 2018, 03:52:42 PM
Ah, you are on the right track. Why stop there?

Let's legalize rape, we could provide condoms and a safe environment to the victims.

Let's legalize murder, to ensure victims are slaughtered in the most humane way.

Let's legalize female genital mutilation, so girls are under anesthesia when their clitoris is removed.

Absurd trolling.

Yes you do, but I agree with your last. That would be better than the nothing we now do for those girls, just like the nothing we do for modern slaves.

Regards
DL

yawn, you bore me troll, do better.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: arthwollipot on December 13, 2018, 05:08:30 PM

Was John Albert wrong? Are you talking about the literal owning of human beings as property?

Slavery is generally described as ownership of the slave, yes.

If illegal, that can happen. If legal, we could devise rules and protections for slaves the same way they were protected in the distant past. Beating rules, time limits of servitude etc.

At present, we are not acknowledging or protecting our slaved populations.

Regards
DL

Your views are absurd and abhorrent and you should be ashamed.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: haudace on December 13, 2018, 07:30:47 PM
Ah, you are on the right track. Why stop there?

Let's legalize rape, we could provide condoms and a safe environment to the victims.

Let's legalize murder, to ensure victims are slaughtered in the most humane way.

Let's legalize female genital mutilation, so girls are under anesthesia when their clitoris is removed.

Absurd trolling.

Yes you do, but I agree with your last. That would be better than the nothing we now do for those girls, just like the nothing we do for modern slaves.

Regards
DL

Trolling Rule #1 - DO NOT ADMIT THAT YOU ARE TROLLING.

 ::)
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: RGU on December 14, 2018, 01:41:33 PM
Can you provide examples of the rules and laws that were put in place by "the ancients". I would love to see a copy.
Thank you
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: John Albert on December 14, 2018, 05:13:59 PM
At present, we are not acknowledging or protecting our slaved populations.

Who do you mean by "we"?

What do you mean by "slaved"?

Which slave populations are not being acknowledged?
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: random poet on December 14, 2018, 05:15:58 PM
At present, we are not acknowledging or protecting our slaved populations.

Who do you mean by "we"?

What do you mean by "slaved"?

Which slave populations are not being acknowledged?
Those are good questions for GCB, the person who actually wrote that sentence.
Title: Re: Have the rich and powerful lost their altruistic instincts?
Post by: John Albert on December 15, 2018, 06:58:25 PM
At present, we are not acknowledging or protecting our slaved populations.

Who do you mean by "we"?

What do you mean by "slaved"?

Which slave populations are not being acknowledged?
Those are good questions for GCB, the person who actually wrote that sentence.

Oops, editing error. I just went back and fixed it.

Here:


At present, we are not acknowledging or protecting our slaved populations.

Who do you mean by "we"?

What do you mean by "slaved"?

Which slave populations are not being acknowledged?