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General Discussions => General Discussion => Topic started by: JohnM on December 01, 2018, 11:08:01 AM

Title: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: JohnM on December 01, 2018, 11:08:01 AM

So here we are again at the very sad state of affairs where another world-famous scientist is facing sexual misconduct charges - made by 3 separate women.

https://www.vulture.com/2018/11/neil-degrasse-tyson-being-investigated-for-sexual-misconduct.html

First thoughts are always with the victims but I'm also concerned about the damage this could do to the wider sci-com community.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: The Latinist on December 01, 2018, 11:38:05 AM
As always, we must support the victims, withhold judgment pending the investigation, and unflinchingly face the truth as it comes to light.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: stands2reason on December 01, 2018, 11:54:12 AM
Quote
Dr. Katelyn N. Allers, who is an Associate Professor of Physics and Astronomy at Bucknell University, claims that Tyson allegedly groped her at an American Astronomical Society after-party in 2009. His former assistant, Ashley Watson, described a night where Tyson allegedly pressured her to join him at his apartment for wine, where she claims he then made several advances.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: DevoutCatalyst on December 01, 2018, 12:20:39 PM
Quote
Dr. Katelyn N. Allers, who is an Associate Professor of Physics and Astronomy at Bucknell University, claims that Tyson allegedly groped her at an American Astronomical Society after-party in 2009. His former assistant, Ashley Watson, described a night where Tyson allegedly pressured her to join him at his apartment for wine, where she claims he then made several advances.
These two allegations come a year after musician Tchiya Amet first accused Tyson of raping her when they were grad students.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: D4M10N on December 01, 2018, 12:31:37 PM
He groped someone sexually on their back?
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: John Albert on December 01, 2018, 12:57:49 PM
He groped someone sexually on their back?

You say it as if you don't think that's possible.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: D4M10N on December 01, 2018, 01:00:06 PM
He groped someone sexually on their back?

You say it as if you don't think that's possible.
Anything is possible, I suppose.

Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: haudace on December 01, 2018, 01:01:09 PM
What the hell...
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: swan on December 01, 2018, 01:44:27 PM
These two allegations come a year after musician Tchiya Amet first accused Tyson of raping her when they were grad students.

Yeah, when I found out I was very disappointed in a certain astronomy news site which had previously done entire episodes on sexual harassment in science and education. I guess when you're hoping to get someone on your podcast you can afford to suddenly go all "Let's wait until we have more information before saying anything!" Not cool.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: John Albert on December 01, 2018, 02:14:53 PM
The article:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/nosacredcows/2018/11/two-more-women-accuse-neil-degrasse-tyson-of-sexual-misconduct/
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: stands2reason on December 01, 2018, 02:23:56 PM
Quote
But after the first picture was taken (above, left), Tyson decided to explore Dr. Allers’ tattoo. It features a realistic solar system that stretches from her arm to her back and collar bone area.

“After we had taken the picture, he noticed my tattoo and kind of grabbed me to look at it, and was really obsessed about whether I had Pluto on this tattoo or not… and then he looked for Pluto, and followed the tattoo into my dress.”
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: moj on December 01, 2018, 06:46:22 PM
His reply
https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/1069004559224328192?s=19
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Captain Video on December 01, 2018, 06:53:17 PM
for those that dont like FB https://www.facebook.com/notes/neil-degrasse-tyson/on-being-accused/10156870826326613/

Quote
On Being Accused
Neil deGrasse Tyson·Saturday, December 1, 2018
For a variety of reasons, most justified, some unjustified, men accused of sexual impropriety in today’s “me-too” climate are presumed to be guilty by the court of public opinion. Emotions bypass due-process, people choose sides, and the social media wars begin.
In any claim, evidence matters.  Evidence always matters.  But what happens when it’s just one person’s word against another’s, and the stories don’t agree?  That’s when people tend to pass judgment on who is more credible than whom.  And that’s when an impartial investigation can best serve the truth – and would have my full cooperation to do so.
I’ve recently been publically accused of sexual misconduct. These accusations have received a fair amount of press in the past forty-eight hours, unaccompanied by my reactions. In many cases, it’s not the media’s fault.  I declined comment on the grounds that serious accusations should not be adjudicated in the press.  But clearly I cannot continue to stay silent.  So below I offer my account of each accusation.
The 2009 Incident
I am asked by thousands of people per year to take pictures with them.  A flattering, time consuming, but delightful chore.  As many in my fan-base can attest, I get almost giddy if I notice you’re wearing cosmic bling – clothing or jewelry or tattoos that portray the universe, either scientifically or artistically.  And I make it a priority to point out these adornments for the photograph.
A colleague at a well attended, after-conference, social gathering came up to me to ask for a photograph. She was wearing a sleeveless dress with a tattooed solar system extending up her arm.  And while I don’t explicitly remember searching for Pluto at the top of her shoulder, it is surely something I would have done in that situation. As we all know, I have professional history with the demotion of Pluto, which had occurred officially just three years earlier.  So whether people include it or not in their tattoos is of great interest to me.  I was reported to have “groped” her by searching “up her dress”, when this was simply a search under the covered part of her shoulder of the sleeveless dress.
I only just learned (nine years after) that she thought this behavior creepy.  That was never my intent and I’m deeply sorry to have made her feel that way. Had I been told of her discomfort in the moment, I would have offered this same apology eagerly, and on the spot.  In my mind’s eye, I’m a friendly and accessible guy, but going forward, I can surely be more sensitive to people’s personal space, even in the midst of my planetary enthusiasm.
Summer 2018 Incident
While filming this past summer, I had a (female) Production Assistant assigned to me, to ensure, among her countless tasks, that every ounce of my energy was efficiently allocated to the production needs of the show.  As part of this, she was also my driver, to and from the studio, ensuring that I arrive on time. In the car we would review details of the shoot and she would help me anticipate parts of the shoot to come. Across the many weeks of shooting she and I spent upwards of a hundred hours in one-on-one conversation.  We became so friendly that we talked about all manner of subjects, even social-personal ones, like the care of aging parents, sibling relationships, life in high school and college, hometown hobbies, race, gender, and so forth.  We also discussed less-personal topics in abundance, like rock lyrics, favorite songs in various musical genres, concert experiences, etc.  And we also talked about food – I’m kind of a foodie, and her fiancé was a chef. In short, we had a fun, talkative friendship.
She is a talented, warm and friendly person -- excellent traits for morale on a high pressure production. Practically everyone she knows on set gets a daily welcome-hug from her. I expressly rejected each hug offered frequently during the Production. But in its place I offered a handshake, and on a few occasions, clumsily declared, “If I hug you I might just want more.”  My intent was to express restrained but genuine affection.
In the final week of shooting, with just a few days left, as a capstone of our friendship, I invited her to wine & cheese at my place upon dropping me off from work.  No pressure. I serve wine & cheese often to visitors. And I even alerted her that others from the production were gathering elsewhere that evening, so she could just drop me off and head straight there or anywhere elsewhere. She freely chose to come by for wine & cheese and I was delighted.  In the car, we had started a long conversation that could continue unabated.  Production days are long. We arrived late, but she was on her way home two hours later.
Afterwards, she came into my office to told me she was creeped out by the wine & cheese evening.  She viewed the invite as an attempt to seduce her, even though she sat across the wine & cheese table from me, and all conversation had been in the same vein as all other conversations we ever had.
Further, I never touched her until I shook her hand upon departure.  On that occasion, I had offered a special handshake, one I learned from a Native elder on reservation land at the edge of the Grand Canyon.  You extend your thumb forward during the handshake to feel the other person’s vital spirit energy -- the pulse.  I’ve never forgotten that handshake, and I save it in appreciation of people with whom I’ve developed new friendships.
At that last meeting in my office, I apologized profusely. She accepted the apology.  And I assured her that had I known she was uncomfortable, I would have apologized on the spot, ended the evening, and possibly reminded her of the other social gathering that she could attend. She nonetheless declared it her last day, with only a few days left of production.
I note that her final gesture to me was the offer of a hug, which I accepted as a parting friend.
Early 1980s
I entered astrophysics graduate school directly out of college in 1980.  It’s a grueling adventure-marathon, and many people do not finish the PhD.  In fact, it was not uncommon for half the admitted students to leave after two or three years, finding some other kind of work in their lives.  While in graduate school I had several girlfriends, one of whom would become my wife of thirty years, a mathematical physicist -- we met in Relativity class.  Over this time I had a brief relationship with a fellow astro-graduate student, from a more recent entering class. I remember being intimate only a few times, all at her apartment, but the chemistry wasn’t there. So the relationship faded quickly. There was nothing otherwise odd or unusual about this friendship.
I didn't see much of her after that time.  Our student offices were on different floors of the building and we were not in the same classes.  A few years later, I ran into her, pregnant, with who I think was the father by her side. That’s when I had learned that she dropped out of graduate school.  Again, this is not itself an unusual fact, but I nonetheless wished her well in motherhood and in whatever career path would follow.
More than thirty years later, as my visibility-level took another jump, I read a freshly posted blog accusing me of drugging and raping a woman I did not recognize by either photo or name.  Turned out to be the same person who I dated briefly in graduate school.  She had changed her name and lived an entire life, married with children, before this accusation.
For me, what was most significant, was that in this new life, long after dropping out of astrophysics graduate school, she was posting videos of colored tuning forks endowed with vibrational therapeutic energy that she channels from the orbiting planets.  As a scientist, I found this odd. Meanwhile, according to her blog posts, the drug and rape allegation comes from an assumption of what happened to her during a night that she cannot remember.  It is as though a false memory had been implanted, which, because it never actually happened, had to be remembered as an evening she doesn’t remember. Nor does she remember waking up the next morning and going to the office. I kept a record of everything she posted, in case her stories morphed over time.  So this is sad, which, for me, defies explanation.
I note that this allegation was used as a kind of solicitation-bait by at least one journalist to bring out of the woodwork anybody who had any encounter with me that left them uncomfortable.
Overview
I’m the accused, so why believe anything I say? Why believe me at all?
That brings us back to the value of an independent investigation, which FOX/NatGeo (the networks on which Cosmos and StarTalk air) announced that they will conduct. I welcome this.
Accusations can damage a reputation and a marriage. Sometimes irreversibly. I see myself as loving husband and as a public servant – a scientist and educator who serves at the will of the public.  I am grateful for the support I’ve received from those who continue to respect and value me and my work.
Respectfully submitted,  Neil deGrasse Tyson, New York City
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: The Latinist on December 01, 2018, 07:39:38 PM
Dr. Tyson is a very good writer and communicator, but we should remember that this was his own statement in which he was able to describe what happened in the light most favorable to him. While I do not want the allegations against him to be true, I also do not want to allow that desire to persuade me to accept at face value the claims of the accused.  I will let the investigation unfold and make my judgments when the facts are in.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Awatsjr on December 01, 2018, 08:22:30 PM
"While I do it want the allegations against him to be true,  ..."

Is the it a not?

Personally, I am going to hold back any judgement at this point.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: lucek on December 06, 2018, 09:25:40 AM
If I'm to be honest I have a strong visceral desire to disbelieve thees allegations but that's exactly why we need to explore them. It is possible that this kind smart figure that we have pushed forward as a bulwark and proselytizer of the skeptical movement has some pretty bad skeletons in his closet. I wan't to believe the possibility of false memories as is Tyson's defense but if I believe what I want what kind of skeptic am I.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: The Latinist on December 06, 2018, 10:51:22 AM
Is the it a not?

Yes, it was.  Thank you for catching that.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: D4M10N on December 06, 2018, 11:20:51 AM
I will let the investigation unfold and make my judgments when the facts are in.

What facts can we reasonably expect to get from non-police investigations into alleged private sexual encounters which took place several decades ago?
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: The Latinist on December 06, 2018, 11:28:02 AM
I will let the investigation unfold and make my judgments when the facts are in.
What facts can we reasonably expect to get from non-police investigations into private sexual encounters which took place several decades ago?

We can get quite a few facts, actually; consider the results of CBS' private investigation of Les Moonves' conduct, which was carried out by independent lawyers and seems to have been pretty thorough. There has also been a lot of good investigative journalism surrounding similar accusations. Nor did all of the behaviors alleged take place "several decades ago"; some of them are alleged to have taken place in the summer of this year during the filming of Cosmos. I see no reason to expect that we will never have anything more to go on than one blog post and one Facebook post.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: mindme on December 06, 2018, 11:31:08 AM
The latest ep of Serious Inquires Only gives me pause about the veracity of the date rape allegation but the allegations of the other two women (he was a sexually creepy boss, he made a woman feel super uncomfy at a con) don't strike me as hard to believe.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: The Latinist on December 06, 2018, 11:36:29 AM
The latest ep of Serious Inquires Only give me pause about the veracity of the date rape allegation but the allegations of the other two women (he was a sexually creepy boss, he made a woman feel super uncomfy at a con) don't strike me as hard to believe.

I want to be clear that I am not saying that the allegations are implausible.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: D4M10N on December 06, 2018, 11:37:20 AM


Nor did all of the behaviors alleged take place "several decades ago"; some of them are alleged to have taken place in the summer of this year during the filming of Cosmos.

Wasn't asking about that part; was asking about the hitherto uninvestigated allegation of sex crime.

What sort of facts are you expecting to come out?
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Desert Fox on December 06, 2018, 03:30:21 PM
Are we next going to read about Steve being accused of sexual misconduct. .  .I am half afraid of that.
Seems like we can't have anybody that is actually nice.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Guillermo on December 06, 2018, 04:18:14 PM
Please post here any update to this story as I am quite interested.

BTW, has there been any backlash resulting from this?
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: The Latinist on December 06, 2018, 08:48:22 PM
It has been bothering me that NDT brought up his accuser’s ties to natural medicine and other woo in his statement. The more I think about it, the more it bothers me.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: mindme on December 07, 2018, 08:07:44 AM
It has been bothering me that NDT brought up his accuser’s ties to natural medicine and other woo in his statement. The more I think about it, the more it bothers me.

It does seem like a poisoning of the well. Heck, maybe she's also crazy and made it all up. Who knows. At a minimum we have a celeb that was a creepy boss to a female employee (so creepy she had to quit) and a guy who went too far at an event and made a woman feel uncomfortable. Tyson admits the latter two although spins the creepy boss story in a way that I don't find believable. Assuming no other women come forward, I think Tyson can certainly make amends. People can become huge dickwads when they achieve power and celebrity. But they can also reform and make amends.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: The Latinist on December 07, 2018, 10:58:26 AM
People can become huge dickwads when they achieve power and celebrity. But they can also reform and make amends.

But it requires, in my opinion, that they acknowledge and take accountability for their behavior.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: mindme on December 07, 2018, 01:28:00 PM
People can become huge dickwads when they achieve power and celebrity. But they can also reform and make amends.

But it requires, in my opinion, that they acknowledge and take accountability for their behavior.

Indeed. Date rape, if true, I don't think is excusable. I don't think you can bounce back from that. And I would not accept you back into my community, no matter what you did. A one-off act of piggishness and a one-off creepy boss incident I think can be honestly repaired. A pattern of those behaviors (more women step forward) I don't think can be repaired. At least not for a long, long time.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: JohnM on December 08, 2018, 05:51:14 AM

This may be a controversial opinion but does anyone else think we're seeing a lot of this in the sci/tech community for these reasons:

1. These communities have been lacking diversity (at least historically if not still presently) so they have not gained insight from other perspectives.

2. Sci/techies tend not to have the skill set of empathy / poor communication skills / introvert etc so can come across as awkward

3. Superiority complex. There is often an arrogance from sci & tech people (NGT often had this eg philosophy is bullshit).

I can't provide any comprehensive evidence of this but I did work in tech for 8 years and even left one team because I couldn't stand the arrogance.




Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Harry Black on December 08, 2018, 12:12:58 PM
Is there more of this in tech/sci than other spaces? Im not sure...
Certainly it does seem to be a male dominated space that many women end up leaving. I always thought it was to do with good old patriarchal entitlement, but I guess people who are convinced they are right and used to using rhetoric to defend arbitrary things might be less likely to break out of this kind of thinking?

Not sure if any of that applies to NDT as he seems to be very socially adept, so for that Im going with ingrained toxic masculinity.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Awatsjr on December 09, 2018, 12:19:28 AM

This may be a controversial opinion but does anyone else think we're seeing a lot of this in the sci/tech community for these reasons:

1. These communities have been lacking diversity (at least historically if not still presently) so they have not gained insight from other perspectives.

2. Sci/techies tend not to have the skill set of empathy / poor communication skills / introvert etc so can come across as awkward

3. Superiority complex. There is often an arrogance from sci & tech people (NGT often had this eg philosophy is bullshit).

I can't provide any comprehensive evidence of this but I did work in tech for 8 years and even left one team because I couldn't stand the arrogance.

I think this is more stereotype than reality from my experience.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: stands2reason on December 09, 2018, 10:32:36 AM
This may be a controversial opinion but does anyone else think we're seeing a lot of this in the sci/tech community for these reasons:

I guess it depends on what you mean by "techie". IT admins, for example, are "Dunning-Krugers"; they think they understand how a computer system works because they have some ability to configure the system. If they actually had to write an OS or a design a CPU from scratch, they would go into a familiar kind of defensive mode that we all see when you show someone what they don't know. (By the way, I actually did both of those as part of my undergrad, though it was admittedly a highly simplified version of the real thing.) Sort of like the difference between being a mechanic that knows how to replace replaceable parts, versus being a mechanical engineer that participates in designing a powertrain.

I can only speak from the perspective of computer science, but the idea of hubris is a running joke. If you're "too good" to critically look at your own code and imagine what can cause it to fail, you don't have what it takes. Unfortunately, IME that ideal barely exists any more: It used to be the case that the software world was the pinnacle of egalitarianism (e.g. the stories of the female developers at Atari). As I understand it, it is far more regressive now that it has ever been. Corporate HR/managers gradually figured out that there is no point hiring people with self-awareness, since that self-awareness leads them to not want to work at any of the pile of garbage corporate employers.

Regarding the thread topic:

I am mostly interested in hearing the results of an investigation into the "dress peek" incident, as it sounds like there were potentially dozens or more people that saw it, and there was probably several video cameras running, but no one thought it was worth reporting.

Another note: Once something becomes mainstream, whether it is UFO abductions or #MeToo, there are always copycats. And people have always been making false accusations about celebrities in order to get attention, or maybe a cash settlement.

Some percentage of sexual assault and date rape fabrications are fake. And I guarantee you the percentage of false claims against Black men are significantly higher than the average. Having been homeless, and having spent time around rather low-class people (including women), I would say that percentage isn't even close to zero, maybe closer to fifty. When I was in public housing, my mother used to joke that the only way the neighbor across the street could get her man out of the house was slamming her face into a door and calling the police.

I think the real takeaway is that one should simply avoid being alone with a woman under any circumstance, unless you have video cameras set up in your apartment. But if you're that cold and logical, you probably already know this and are lucky enough to not have anything mentally debilitating like sexual attraction. Expect to see more stories like this in the future:

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/04/06/secret-recording-leads-to-dropping-sexual-assault-charges-against-uber-driver/
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: mindme on December 10, 2018, 07:54:47 AM
"There is often an arrogance from sci & tech people "

I think you're right, John. I think in the skeptical field we pat ourselves on the back going "but we're the good guys!" I've seen a lot of "good guys" and groups that self identify as the "good guys" then excuse a lot of horrible behavior. "I can't be X because I'm Y!"


Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Paul Blevins Jr. on December 10, 2018, 05:58:33 PM
Are we next going to read about Steve being accused of sexual misconduct. .  .I am half afraid of that.
Seems like we can't have anybody that is actually nice.

More likely be Bob or Jay than Steve, since they are the ones making the risque jokes all the time. They'll make the wrong quip to the wrong person at a conference somewhere and there we'll be.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Paul Blevins Jr. on December 10, 2018, 06:02:46 PM

This may be a controversial opinion but does anyone else think we're seeing a lot of this in the sci/tech community for these reasons:

1. These communities have been lacking diversity (at least historically if not still presently) so they have not gained insight from other perspectives.

2. Sci/techies tend not to have the skill set of empathy / poor communication skills / introvert etc so can come across as awkward

3. Superiority complex. There is often an arrogance from sci & tech people (NGT often had this eg philosophy is bullshit).

I can't provide any comprehensive evidence of this but I did work in tech for 8 years and even left one team because I couldn't stand the arrogance.

I seem to recall reading reports  claiming to show a link between higher intelligence and higher libido. But it's probably another myth like humans using only ten percent of their brains or that bumblebees shouldn't be able to fly.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: arthwollipot on December 10, 2018, 06:13:44 PM
My opinion. I think that the first two allegations are extremely reasonable, and I think that his response to them is also reasonable. He was being creepy, and he didn't realise it at the time. This is a thing that happens. The best thing to do here is for him to acknowledge that he had misinterpreted the interaction, apologise, and do his best to ensure that it doesn't happen again. Which is what I think he's doing.

The third allegation seems a lot more problematic to me, and I think both that it is important for an investigation to focus on this, and that because it happened so long ago, any such investigation will encounter problems that may be insurmountable. ETA: I am also a bit bothered by his bringing up the alt-med aspect of that one.

That having been said, I am still reserving judgement. The accusers need to be heard. Have the first two women made a statement in response to his account?
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: DevoutCatalyst on December 10, 2018, 06:20:03 PM
My opinion. I think that the first two allegations are extremely reasonable, and I think that his response to them is also reasonable. He was being creepy, and he didn't realise it at the time. This is a thing that happens. The best thing to do here is for him to acknowledge that he had misinterpreted the interaction, apologise, and do his best to ensure that it doesn't happen again. Which is what I think he's doing.

The third allegation seems a lot more problematic to me, and I think both that it is important for an investigation to focus on this, and that because it happened so long ago, any such investigation will encounter problems that may be insurmountable. ETA: I am also a bit bothered by his bringing up the alt-med aspect of that one.

That having been said, I am still reserving judgement. The accusers need to be heard. Have the first two women made a statement in response to his account?
A 4th woman has come forward,

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/azeenghorayshi/neil-degrasse-tyson-sexual-allegations-four-women?fbclid=IwAR0jS-lln1L2BmCaTUutVB9TGgvpqVosHzA2lfKz2w1RrL_N-lGPwDVyde8 (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/azeenghorayshi/neil-degrasse-tyson-sexual-allegations-four-women?fbclid=IwAR0jS-lln1L2BmCaTUutVB9TGgvpqVosHzA2lfKz2w1RrL_N-lGPwDVyde8)

Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: haudace on December 10, 2018, 08:18:11 PM
If I'm to be honest I have a strong visceral desire to disbelieve thees allegations but that's exactly why we need to explore them. It is possible that this kind smart figure that we have pushed forward as a bulwark and proselytizer of the skeptical movement has some pretty bad skeletons in his closet. I wan't to believe the possibility of false memories as is Tyson's defense but if I believe what I want what kind of skeptic am I.

Indeed - I feel an irrational desire to 'protect' this icon and his accomplishments in science. It is good to acknowledge, this should help prevent bias clouding sound judgment.

Never mind the very serious rape accusation, which should be investigated, I am not sure what to think or how to interpret the other allegations. Was he being an old creep or are the other women describing sexual misconduct? What is the line between boorishness/clumsy flirtations and sexual harassment? It is starting to look like the line is getting fuzzier and fuzzier.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: stands2reason on December 10, 2018, 09:25:08 PM
I seem to recall reading reports  claiming to show a link between higher intelligence and higher libido. But it's probably another myth like humans using only ten percent of their brains or that bumblebees shouldn't be able to fly.

Oddly enough, I always assumed it was the opposite.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: stands2reason on December 10, 2018, 09:51:10 PM
Quote
This post has been updated to note that Amet reenrolled at UT Austin for a semester, with a focus on ancient astronomy.

The stars are in alignment. Cancer is Rising.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: gebobs on December 11, 2018, 10:03:40 AM
I seem to recall reading reports  claiming to show a link between higher intelligence and higher libido. But it's probably another myth like humans using only ten percent of their brains or that bumblebees shouldn't be able to fly.

Oddly enough, I always assumed it was the opposite.

(https://images.8tracks.com/cover/i/012/636/055/Untitled-3-7061.png?rect=0,50,683,683&q=98&fm=jpg&fit=max&w=640&h=640)
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: mindme on December 11, 2018, 12:46:31 PM
Tyson, creepy boss. Creepy drunk. I think every woman has had both. We hope our heroes are better than this. Sadly, behind even slightly ajar doors, they just ain't. If men with any power or an iota of fame haven't heard the message yet, stop treating your employees like sexual conquests. Stop thinking you can just proposition fans and admirers at parties.

Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: wastrel on December 11, 2018, 12:51:30 PM
Are we next going to read about Steve being accused of sexual misconduct. .  .I am half afraid of that.
Seems like we can't have anybody that is actually nice.

More likely be Bob or Jay than Steve, since they are the ones making the risque jokes all the time. They'll make the wrong quip to the wrong person at a conference somewhere and there we'll be.

There have already been allegations made toward Jay, brought to Steve, with no resolution.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: D4M10N on December 11, 2018, 01:06:16 PM


Tyson, creepy boss. Creepy drunk. I think every woman has had both. We hope our heroes are better than this. Sadly, behind even slightly ajar doors, they just ain't. If men with any power or an iota of fame haven't heard the message yet, stop treating your employees like sexual conquests. Stop thinking you can just proposition fans and admirers at parties.

This approach is going to put a serious kink in the conference circuit.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Harry Black on December 11, 2018, 01:57:13 PM
Are we next going to read about Steve being accused of sexual misconduct. .  .I am half afraid of that.
Seems like we can't have anybody that is actually nice.

More likely be Bob or Jay than Steve, since they are the ones making the risque jokes all the time. They'll make the wrong quip to the wrong person at a conference somewhere and there we'll be.

There have already been allegations made toward Jay, brought to Steve, with no resolution.
I believe it was Evan if we are thinking of the same situation?
Please tell me its not both?
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: gebobs on December 11, 2018, 01:58:26 PM
I think the real takeaway is that one should simply avoid being alone with a woman under any circumstance, unless you have video cameras set up in your apartment.

Like Rob Lowe!
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Harry Black on December 11, 2018, 02:04:59 PM
I think the real takeaway is that one should simply avoid being alone with a woman under any circumstance, unless you have video cameras set up in your apartment.

Like Rob Lowe!
Reminds me of this fucking idiot:
https://www.blogto.com/arts/2014/10/star_says_ghomeshi_showed_cbc_graphic_sex_videos/
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: The Latinist on December 11, 2018, 02:24:35 PM
Are we next going to read about Steve being accused of sexual misconduct. .  .I am half afraid of that.
Seems like we can't have anybody that is actually nice.

More likely be Bob or Jay than Steve, since they are the ones making the risque jokes all the time. They'll make the wrong quip to the wrong person at a conference somewhere and there we'll be.

There have already been allegations made toward Jay, brought to Steve, with no resolution.
I believe it was Evan if we are thinking of the same situation?
Please tell me its not both?
I have heard scuttlebutt about creepiness from Jay, but Evan is the one against whom the more serious allegations have been raised. That same accuser says that Jay and his knew about it and said nothing to Steve.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: wastrel on December 11, 2018, 03:34:15 PM
Are we next going to read about Steve being accused of sexual misconduct. .  .I am half afraid of that.
Seems like we can't have anybody that is actually nice.

More likely be Bob or Jay than Steve, since they are the ones making the risque jokes all the time. They'll make the wrong quip to the wrong person at a conference somewhere and there we'll be.


There have already been allegations made toward Jay, brought to Steve, with no resolution.
I believe it was Evan if we are thinking of the same situation?
Please tell me its not both?

JFC I can't believe I got that wrong.  Yes, it was Evan.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Guillermo on December 11, 2018, 04:25:02 PM
I think the real takeaway is that one should simply avoid being alone with a woman under any circumstance, unless you have video cameras set up in your apartment.

Like Rob Lowe!
Reminds me of this fucking idiot:
https://www.blogto.com/arts/2014/10/star_says_ghomeshi_showed_cbc_graphic_sex_videos/
Wait, So you can't have consensual BDSM? I am surely missing something from that article.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Harry Black on December 11, 2018, 04:32:10 PM
I think the real takeaway is that one should simply avoid being alone with a woman under any circumstance, unless you have video cameras set up in your apartment.

Like Rob Lowe!
Reminds me of this fucking idiot:
https://www.blogto.com/arts/2014/10/star_says_ghomeshi_showed_cbc_graphic_sex_videos/
Wait, So you can't have consensual BDSM? I am surely missing something from that article.
The part where he thought it was a good idea to bring videos of himself engaging in sexual activity to a HR meeting?
And play them for people...thinking it would prove anything whatsoever with regards to the consent or lack there of in any other situation he may have been in?
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Guillermo on December 12, 2018, 07:35:14 AM
Oh, of course, showing unsolicited porn material at work, would get you fired.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: lucek on December 12, 2018, 09:07:56 AM
Are we next going to read about Steve being accused of sexual misconduct. .  .I am half afraid of that.
Seems like we can't have anybody that is actually nice.

More likely be Bob or Jay than Steve, since they are the ones making the risque jokes all the time. They'll make the wrong quip to the wrong person at a conference somewhere and there we'll be.


There have already been allegations made toward Jay, brought to Steve, with no resolution.
I believe it was Evan if we are thinking of the same situation?
Please tell me its not both?

JFC I can't believe I got that wrong.  Yes, it was Evan.

If you don't want to bring it up in this thread could you send me a pm to this. My Googlefoo is unable to find said story.

I'm also a bit dubious after the hard stance Steve took in the FYI Joshie Berger is garbage thread. I would hope that If a credible allegation against even a founding member of the SGU and long time friend of the Novellas was in fact formally presented to the SGU that person would be out on their ear just as fast as Joshie.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: mindme on December 12, 2018, 09:58:01 AM
I hope the notion conditions are such you shouldn't be alone in a room without security video going is sarcasm or a joke to make a point. Clearly the chances of a woman unfairly fingering you for sexual harassment is rare. Hence the worry is minimal. To me, it's a bit like saying since some people get killed the moment they step out their door, no one should go outside...
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: D4M10N on December 12, 2018, 10:20:44 AM


I hope the notion conditions are such you shouldn't be alone in a room without security video going is sarcasm or a joke to make a point. Clearly the chances of a woman unfairly fingering you for sexual harassment is rare.

Presumably those skeptics who have been accused of sexual impropriety or worse (e.g. Shermer (https://www.buzzfeed.com/markoppenheimer/will-misogyny-bring-down-the-atheist-movement), Radford (https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2015/06/02/if-you-promote-a-story-that-turns-out-to-be-false-dont-you-have-an-obligation-to-correct-it/), Carrier (https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/14888), Myers (https://www.michaelnugent.com/2014/11/24/pz-myers-updates-story-threatened-false-rape-allegation/)) take a rather different view.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Harry Black on December 12, 2018, 10:55:02 AM
Are we next going to read about Steve being accused of sexual misconduct. .  .I am half afraid of that.
Seems like we can't have anybody that is actually nice.

More likely be Bob or Jay than Steve, since they are the ones making the risque jokes all the time. They'll make the wrong quip to the wrong person at a conference somewhere and there we'll be.


There have already been allegations made toward Jay, brought to Steve, with no resolution.
I believe it was Evan if we are thinking of the same situation?
Please tell me its not both?

JFC I can't believe I got that wrong.  Yes, it was Evan.

If you don't want to bring it up in this thread could you send me a pm to this. My Googlefoo is unable to find said story.

I'm also a bit dubious after the hard stance Steve took in the FYI Joshie Berger is garbage thread. I would hope that If a credible allegation against even a founding member of the SGU and long time friend of the Novellas was in fact formally presented to the SGU that person would be out on their ear just as fast as Joshie.
You wont find it on google.
A member in good standing on the forum who is known irl to many members told us that Evan had groped her on two or three occasions.
She brought this to Steve who also knows her quite well and she never heard anything back about it.
Its in a thread here somewhere, perhaps the Joshie Berger one.
Take it for what you will. I have no desire to see her claims dissected again and suffice to say that I believe my friend.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: mindme on December 12, 2018, 10:59:47 AM


I hope the notion conditions are such you shouldn't be alone in a room without security video going is sarcasm or a joke to make a point. Clearly the chances of a woman unfairly fingering you for sexual harassment is rare.

Presumably those skeptics who have been accused of sexual impropriety or worse (e.g. Shermer (https://www.buzzfeed.com/markoppenheimer/will-misogyny-bring-down-the-atheist-movement), Radford (https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2015/06/02/if-you-promote-a-story-that-turns-out-to-be-false-dont-you-have-an-obligation-to-correct-it/), Carrier (https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/14888), Myers (https://www.michaelnugent.com/2014/11/24/pz-myers-updates-story-threatened-false-rape-allegation/)) take a rather different view.

Sure. And there are people who did step out of their house and were horribly injured wished they hadn't stepped out of their house that day. But pointing to a a few anecdotes doesn't lend much support to a blanket statement that men need to avoid being in rooms alone with women, lest they become victims of false charges.

The better advice, I think, is conduct your public and private life like a respectful adult. Should you be a rare victim of a wing nut, that you've not given other women with credible complaints a reason to join in works in your favor.



Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: D4M10N on December 12, 2018, 11:11:13 AM


...pointing to a a few anecdotes doesn't lend much support to a blanket statement that men need to avoid being in rooms alone with women, lest they become victims of false charges.

All we have are anecdotes, alas. (If we wanted to run a randomized controlled trial on human sexual relationships, we'd have all kinds of trouble with the IRB.) My advice would be to avoid sexual behaviour (flirting, propositioning, physical intimacy) with anyone at skeptic events unless one is already in a trusting long-term relationship with them.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: mindme on December 12, 2018, 11:25:44 AM
My advice would be to avoid sexual behaviour (flirting, propositioning, physical intimacy) with anyone at skeptic events unless one is already in a trusting long-term relationship with them.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Sawyer on December 12, 2018, 12:43:45 PM
My advice would be to avoid sexual behaviour (flirting, propositioning, physical intimacy) with anyone at skeptic events unless one is already in a trusting long-term relationship with them.

Agreed.

*sigh*

While I guess this is decent advice for people presenting/leading a conference, it bothers immensely me because it seems to play right into the "See, women are ruining everything!" narrative.  Is it really that hard for men to learn how to flirt without being a scumbag or read basic social cues to tell when women are uncomfortable?  I'm not going to any formal skeptic events so I don't know what the vibe is, but I'm honestly baffled that men in this community are so bad at navigating them.  Of course I'm also baffled that Hollywood actors and the business world fails to do this as well, so maybe it's not anything particularly wrong with skeptics.

Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: mindme on December 12, 2018, 01:26:22 PM
"See, women are ruining everything!" narrative

I honestly don't see how adopting the attitude that everyone who attends a skeptical conference deserves respect plays into that narrative.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on December 12, 2018, 01:51:02 PM
I think the implicit narrative is, "sexuality is a liability."
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: bimble on December 12, 2018, 04:43:08 PM
it's almost like sceptical conferences shouldn't be treated as an opportunity to hook up...
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: daniel1948 on December 12, 2018, 05:53:00 PM
"See, women are ruining everything!" narrative

I honestly don't see how adopting the attitude that everyone who attends a skeptical conference deserves respect plays into that narrative.


The idea that everyone deserves respect does not sit well with people who do not respect any given group. Whether the topic is racism, sexism, homophobia, religious bigotry, or any other sort of prejudice.

(I’ve never been to a skeptics conference because the dates always conflict with prior plans, so I don’t know what the atmosphere is like there, other than what I read here. Sadly, there are sexists, racists, and all other forms of bigots in nearly every group if it’s large enough and doesn’t stamp down hard on such things as soon as they raise their head.)
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: haudace on December 12, 2018, 06:05:21 PM
"See, women are ruining everything!" narrative


Indeed - why wouldn't they want to be touched or sexually harassed. Men are just admiring their beauty!!! /sarcasm.

By the way, thumbs up for your comment: 'I honestly don't see how adopting the attitude that everyone who attends a skeptical conference deserves respect plays into that narrative.' This goes to show the fight for equality is far from over. Men need to recognize many of them are obviously still misbehaving towards women, and also many want to hold onto that power imbalance.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: D4M10N on December 12, 2018, 06:40:19 PM
I think the implicit narrative is, "sexuality is a liability."

It certainly can be a liability, in this day and age.

Had certain Prominent Skeptic and/or Rationalist Men (TM) avoided expressing their sexual interest to certain other conference attendees, they would likely still be invited to speak at such events.

it's almost like sceptical conferences shouldn't be treated as an opportunity to hook up...

Exactly.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: amysrevenge on December 12, 2018, 07:30:14 PM
I think there's an additional layer to the problem when "hook up" behaviour comes from someone you don't expect it from at all - say, a person known to be in an apparently stable monogamous relationship.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: mindme on December 13, 2018, 08:15:48 AM
(I’ve never been to a skeptics conference because the dates always conflict with prior plans, so I don’t know what the atmosphere is like there, other than what I read here. Sadly, there are sexists, racists, and all other forms of bigots in nearly every group if it’s large enough and doesn’t stamp down hard on such things as soon as they raise their head.)

I've been to a TAM twice. I think both were before Elevatorgate. I personally witnessed no sexual harassment or creepers. I found the environment incredibly friendly, welcoming, and tolerant. But then I might not have eyes for it. I think a big issue that was lost in Elevatorgate was the recognition many of these conventions didn't have clear, written policies on how to handle unwanted attention. If you do go to an event and find you've got some person hounding you, is there a policy on how to handle that? Have the organizers hired people trained to deal with harassment? I don't walk in the same world as many people, many who are women. And if they generally want X to feel safer, I figure shut up and work with them.


 
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: stands2reason on December 14, 2018, 01:10:02 PM

https://youtu.be/h3Yrhv33Zb8
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: HopDavid on December 20, 2018, 08:26:57 AM
If I'm to be honest I have a strong visceral desire to disbelieve thees allegations but that's exactly why we need to explore them. It is possible that this kind smart figure that we have pushed forward as a bulwark and proselytizer of the skeptical movement has some pretty bad skeletons in his closet. I wan't to believe the possibility of false memories as is Tyson's defense but if I believe what I want what kind of skeptic am I.

Indeed - I feel an irrational desire to 'protect' this icon and his accomplishments in science.

Irrational or not, many skeptics have a desire to protect this icon. There are "skeptics" more than willing to suppress evidence that would make their poster boy look bad.

In 2014 Sean Davis blew the whistle on Tyson's account of Bush's 9-11 speech. According to Tyson the speech was an attempt "to distinguish we from they". When Bush's actual speech was a call for tolerance and inclusion, exactly the opposite of the xenophobe demagogue Tyson falsely portrayed.

Turns out Tyson had conflated Bush's eulogy for the Space Shuttle Columbia astronauts with his 9-11 speech. However in neither speech did Bush attempt to distinguish Christians from Muslims. That came from a combination of Tyson's poor memory, strong imagination and strong confirmation bias.

Go to the talk pages of Tyson's Wikipedia article and the successful attempt to bury this story is documented in archives 2 through 12. I suspect there are other information outlets that also tried to push this down the memory hole.

Tyson will study something with half his attention and then build a story around it. Which is usually entertaining but often wrong. For example Tyson's discussion of infinite sets with Joe Rogan (http://www.rationalskepticism.org/general-science/neil-degrasse-tyson-doing-a-disservice-t53874-20.html).

Tyson's botching basic math and physics is merely annoying. Much worse is when he invents histories to support his political talking points. Besides his Bush and Star Names story, Tyson has also invented histories to support his cautionary tales against religion.

Yet Shermer, Novella, Krauss and other self proclaimed skeptics continue to endorse this icon. This gives the skeptic community a bad smell. Is the community being deliberately dishonest? Or has the skeptic credulous community actually swallowed Tyson's steaming piles?

In either case there's strong incentive to conceal information and data. This has already happened.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: The Latinist on December 20, 2018, 12:17:03 PM
Indeed, when speaking off-the-cuff Tyson often makes jarring and grating mistakes, both technical and non-technical--though I don't ascribe the motivations to them that you seem to. But I do not think it is appropriate to turn a thread about serious accusations of sexual impropriety and even rape into an opportunity to air your general grievances about him.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: HopDavid on December 20, 2018, 12:58:07 PM
Indeed, when speaking off-the-cuff

Not off the cuff. Tyson's bad histories have been a standard part of his routine for many years.

Tyson often makes jarring and grating mistakes, both technical and non-technical--though I don't ascribe the motivations to them that you seem to.

What motives did I ascribe to Tyson? I'm not accusing him of lying.

However I am accusing Tyson as well as his supporters for having low standards when it comes to rigor and accuracy. Here is a crowd advising their neighbors to check their assumptions and see if they're supported by evidence. Kind of like adulterous Republicans preaching family values.

Tyson's false histories have been called out. Continued support of Tyson is an endorsement of his misinformation.

This discredits the pseudo skeptic community more than allegations of sexual misconduct, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: mindme on December 20, 2018, 02:04:24 PM
Indeed, when speaking off-the-cuff Tyson often makes jarring and grating mistakes, both technical and non-technical--though I don't ascribe the motivations to them that you seem to. But I do not think it is appropriate to turn a thread about serious accusations of sexual impropriety and even rape into an opportunity to air your general grievances about him.

My friend, an astronomer, says he face palms a lot when the SGU cast talk about astronomy topics. He feels they get a lot wrong. Yeah, I don't hold people to 100% accuracy when they're asked a question and trying to answer it and trying hard to answer it in a way a lay person might grok. That tends to be the bane of many scientists. They try to simplify things for reporters and then reporters assume the simplified analogy is the actual science. "MIT invents transwarp drive!"
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Harry Black on December 20, 2018, 02:14:16 PM
Worrying that Shermer and Kraus not holding him accountable may give skeptics a bad name is bizarre.

They both do that all by themselves.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: HopDavid on December 20, 2018, 06:15:31 PM
My friend, an astronomer, says he face palms a lot when the SGU cast talk about astronomy topics. He feels they get a lot wrong. Yeah, I don't hold people to 100% accuracy when they're asked a question and trying to answer it and trying hard to answer it in a way a lay person might grok.

I'm not talking about answering impromptu questions from the public. These are stories Tyson repeatedly tells. Over and over again, year after year. See fact checking Neil deGrasse Tyson (http://hopsblog-hop.blogspot.com/2016/01/fact-checking-neil-degrasse-tyson.html).

I don't mnd bashing Republican presidents. Nor do I mind cautionary tales against religion. If the stories are fact based. Tyson's are not. He is a source of many large, steaming piles of bad history.

The one thing self proclaimed skeptics brag about is their ability to detect bull shit. Yet so many seek out a serial bull shitter to endorse their books, appear on their podcasts or speak at their events. Novella proudly proclaims tyson's endorsement at the top of his SGU book page (https://www.theskepticsguide.org/the-skeptics-guide-to-the-universe-how-to-know-whats-really-real-in-a-world-increasingly-full-of-fake).

So what's more embarrassing for the skeptic community? That your heroes are horn dogs? Or that they have little regard for truth and accuracy?
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Harry Black on December 20, 2018, 06:45:07 PM
Im a horn dog.

They are sexual assaulters.

So thats more embarrassing.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: CarbShark on December 20, 2018, 10:59:36 PM
So HopDavid has a deep seated grudge against Tyson. He has a web page devoted to accusing NGT of all sorts of evils and has joined us to push this vilifying agenda.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: HopDavid on December 21, 2018, 09:11:22 AM
So HopDavid has a deep seated grudge against Tyson. He has a web page devoted to accusing NGT of all sorts of evils

All sorts of evils? Naw, I'm just accusing Tyson of being a habitual bull shitter. Nothing more, nothing less.

And most of Tyson's bull shit is harmless. But not harmless when he uses his addled memories to slam groups or individuals. Inventing histories to support your political talking points should be strongly condemned.

And I cite evidence to support my accusations. Tyson replies in the comments section of my list (http://hopsblog-hop.blogspot.com/2016/01/fact-checking-neil-degrasse-tyson.html) acknowledging some of his errors.

and has joined us to push this vilifying agenda.

I'm not really after Tyson. I am ridiculing you. This "skeptic community" should be relabeled the "credulous as fuck community".

Everyone who has been putting Tyson on a pedestal has bull shit on their bibs. I'm supposed to listen to Novella when he tells me "how to know what's really real in a world increasingly full of fake"? You "skeptics" are as credulous as Trump's birthers.

Tyson and Trump are flip sides of the same coin: an ignorant population that values entertainment and celebrity more than truth and accuracy.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Harry Black on December 21, 2018, 09:48:42 AM
NDT has not identified as a skeptic for a long time and actively distanced himself from the community if I recall correctly (which I may not).
There are lots of reasons the skeptical community is often full of shit, but I dont think anything NDT says or does reflects on anyone but himself and anyone who decides to go to bat for him (be he right or wrong).
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: mindme on December 21, 2018, 10:02:56 AM
Does this board still have an ignore function? Nothing as dull as a one issue poster.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Harry Black on December 21, 2018, 10:06:43 AM
Does this board still have an ignore function? Nothing as dull as a one issue poster.
We do! I really miss being able to use it since I put on the mod hat.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: mindme on December 21, 2018, 10:16:07 AM
Quote
In Tyson's column for Natural History Magazine as well as in his Space Chronicles Tyson wrote:

    During the heat of the space race in the 1960s, the US National Aeronautics and Space Administration decided it needed a ballpoint pen to write in the zero gravity confines of its space capsules. After considerable research and development, the Astronaut Pen was developed at a cost of approximately $1 million US. The pen worked and also enjoyed some modest success as a novelty item back here on earth. The Soviet Union, faced with the same problem, used a pencil.

Ummmmm..... No.

This urban legend was debunked in a Scientific American article.

At one time both NASA and the Russian space program were using pencils. But the tips flaked and broke resulting in potentially harmful particles floating around in the weightless environment. Pencils are also flammable, something to be avoided in a spacecraft.

Pens were needed. But it wasn't NASA who financed the R&D. It was Paul C. Fisher of the Fisher Pen Company. He invested $1 million to create what we now call the space pen. According to Scientific American, none of that million dollars came from NASA.

Both NASA and the Russians bought the pens from the Fisher Pen company at $2.39 per pen.

Tyson's four sentence summary of the space pen isn't inaccurate. The way it is written can imply to some, if not most, readers NASA financed the pen's development. But no where does Tyson state that. It also seems to imply the Soviets, lacking gee wizz attitude of America, were being pragmatic and saved a lot of money using pencils.

Word to the wise: don't trust four sentence summaries of the history of any technology as accurately capturing all the nuances. Mmmm kay?
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: mindme on December 21, 2018, 10:18:43 AM
Does this board still have an ignore function? Nothing as dull as a one issue poster.
We do! I really miss being able to use it since I put on the mod hat.

Walk an old timer through how to put him on ignore?
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on December 21, 2018, 12:38:12 PM
Tyson and Trump are flip sides of the same coin: an ignorant population that values entertainment and celebrity more than truth and accuracy.

Given the context, isn't (1) hyperbole tantamount to hypocrisy and (2) hypocrisy undermining of authority to indict NDT?  It also makes me wonder if you're a Limbaugh-type or some shit.

Like, Tyson's an effective science communicator whose work is slipshod. 

Whereas Trump's a kid-fucking money-launderer who's compromised by the Russians, who's wrecking our international relations, who's wrecking our economy and whose supporters live in a faith-based fictionalized reality.

Are you just going for a cheap shot or is your opinion of Trump curiously high?
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Harry Black on December 21, 2018, 01:38:00 PM
Does this board still have an ignore function? Nothing as dull as a one issue poster.
We do! I really miss being able to use it since I put on the mod hat.

Walk an old timer through how to put him on ignore?
Of course!
Go to your profile>modify profile>buddies/ignore list.

There you can add/remove usernames to your ignore list.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: HopDavid on December 21, 2018, 02:49:47 PM
Quote
In Tyson's column for Natural History Magazine as well as in his Space Chronicles Tyson wrote:

    During the heat of the space race in the 1960s, the US National Aeronautics and Space Administration decided it needed a ballpoint pen to write in the zero gravity confines of its space capsules. After considerable research and development, the Astronaut Pen was developed at a cost of approximately $1 million US. The pen worked and also enjoyed some modest success as a novelty item back here on earth. The Soviet Union, faced with the same problem, used a pencil.

Ummmmm..... No.

This urban legend was debunked in a Scientific American article.

At one time both NASA and the Russian space program were using pencils. But the tips flaked and broke resulting in potentially harmful particles floating around in the weightless environment. Pencils are also flammable, something to be avoided in a spacecraft.

Pens were needed. But it wasn't NASA who financed the R&D. It was Paul C. Fisher of the Fisher Pen Company. He invested $1 million to create what we now call the space pen. According to Scientific American, none of that million dollars came from NASA.

Both NASA and the Russians bought the pens from the Fisher Pen company at $2.39 per pen.

Tyson's four sentence summary of the space pen isn't inaccurate. The way it is written can imply to some, if not most, readers NASA financed the pen's development. But no where does Tyson state that.

Okay I'll acknowledge that Tyson's bit about space pens is possibly a poorly written and completely pointless paragraph. A stretch but remotely possible.

Now how about Tyson's Ghazali quote? About Ghazali's writings Tyson says (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vfOpZD4Sm8&feature=youtu.be&t=3263) "in there was the statement that manipulating numbers was the work of the devil...". Which is extremely unlikely.

Here (http://blog.ghazali.org/archives/141)'s something Ghazali actually wrote:
Quote
Great indeed is the crime against religion committed by anyone who supposes that Islam is to be championed by the denial of these mathematical sciences. For the revealed law nowhere undertakes to deny or affirm these sciences, and the latter nowhere address themselves to religious matters.

After dropping that steaming pile in front of Novella and many other so called skeptics at TAM6 Tyson goes on to say "... and that cut out the kneecaps of the entire mathematical enterprise of that period...". Which is also false. There were many Islamic scientists and mathematicians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_scientists) in the centuries following Ghazali. Abu al-Hasan was born three centuries after Ghazali died. Hasan was the father of symbolic algebra.

In the 16th century sea routes made the overland trading routes obsolete. And so the mideast ceased to be a trading hub where diverse cultures would meet and exchange ideas. This is when Islamic innovation petered out. Not in the 12th century with Ghazali.


This false history has been uploaded many times to Youtube, posted many times to r/atheism r/exmuslim and similar groups. Self proclaimed skeptics have been pushing this story for decades. I don't see Tyson, Shermer, Novella, Krauss, Plait, Harris, or any of the TAM crowd lifting a finger to correct these falsehoods. Of course they don't. These falsehoods serve to support their agenda.


In my list I include a lot of harmless bits of misinformation Tyson has dropped. These are to demonstrate Tyson is comfortable speaking authoritatively on things he knows little about. It is revealing that you focus on one of the more inconsequential parts and ignore my major objections.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: HopDavid on December 21, 2018, 02:56:28 PM
Does this board still have an ignore function? Nothing as dull as a one issue poster.
We do! I really miss being able to use it since I put on the mod hat.

Walk an old timer through how to put him on ignore?
Of course!
Go to your profile>modify profile>buddies/ignore list.

There you can add/remove usernames to your ignore list.

Will mindme choose to ignore evidence and arguments that challenge his beliefs?

I hope so. So many pay lip service to skepticism but don't practice it. This would be a good example.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Awatsjr on December 21, 2018, 07:21:34 PM
Does this board still have an ignore function? Nothing as dull as a one issue poster.
We do! I really miss being able to use it since I put on the mod hat.

Walk an old timer through how to put him on ignore?

Of course!
Go to your profile>modify profile>buddies/ignore list.

There you can add/remove usernames to your ignore list.

Or don’t respond.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: CarbShark on December 21, 2018, 07:24:08 PM

Will mindme choose to ignore evidence and arguments that challenge his beliefs?

No. Mindme will just ignore you.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Harry Black on December 21, 2018, 10:31:36 PM
Does this board still have an ignore function? Nothing as dull as a one issue poster.
We do! I really miss being able to use it since I put on the mod hat.

Walk an old timer through how to put him on ignore?

Or don’t respond.
Of course!
Go to your profile>modify profile>buddies/ignore list.

There you can add/remove usernames to your ignore list.
Sometimes not being able to see something that annoys you is the better choice for ones blood pressure or mental health.
It does not necessarily mean that the source has presented some iron clad argument that you just cant refute.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: The Latinist on December 21, 2018, 10:43:39 PM
I repeat, it is inappropriate to derail a thread about sexual assault to push your grudge against Tyson.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: stands2reason on December 22, 2018, 12:07:03 AM
I repeat, it is inappropriate to derail a thread about sexual assault to push your grudge against Tyson.

Although I think it does speak to the psychology of how accusation and character witness works.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Awatsjr on December 22, 2018, 11:52:04 AM
Does this board still have an ignore function? Nothing as dull as a one issue poster.
We do! I really miss being able to use it since I put on the mod hat.

Walk an old timer through how to put him on ignore?

Or don’t respond.
Of course!
Go to your profile>modify profile>buddies/ignore list.

There you can add/remove usernames to your ignore list.
Sometimes not being able to see something that annoys you is the better choice for ones blood pressure or mental health.
It does not necessarily mean that the source has presented some iron clad argument that you just cant refute.
My post was buried in the quote -  "Or don't respond." I fixed it in the post.

There are times where I do want to just block some people that go off on a tirade but it seems easier to just not respond to them. It doesn't seem to happen a lot on this forum thankfully. Making an ignore easier would be nice either way.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: stretcher on December 24, 2018, 08:58:16 AM
So HopDavid has a deep seated grudge against Tyson. He has a web page devoted to accusing NGT of all sorts of evils

All sorts of evils? Naw, I'm just accusing Tyson of being a habitual bull shitter. Nothing more, nothing less.

And most of Tyson's bull shit is harmless. But not harmless when he uses his addled memories to slam groups or individuals. Inventing histories to support your political talking points should be strongly condemned.

And I cite evidence to support my accusations. Tyson replies in the comments section of my list (http://hopsblog-hop.blogspot.com/2016/01/fact-checking-neil-degrasse-tyson.html) acknowledging some of his errors.

and has joined us to push this vilifying agenda.

I'm not really after Tyson. I am ridiculing you. This "skeptic community" should be relabeled the "credulous as fuck community".

Everyone who has been putting Tyson on a pedestal has bull shit on their bibs. I'm supposed to listen to Novella when he tells me "how to know what's really real in a world increasingly full of fake"? You "skeptics" are as credulous as Trump's birthers.

Tyson and Trump are flip sides of the same coin: an ignorant population that values entertainment and celebrity more than truth and accuracy.

You seem like a pleasant, stable person who uses their time productively and gets along well with people you've just met and do not know. I bet you have lots of friends and everyone loves you.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: HopDavid on December 28, 2018, 05:39:51 PM
I repeat, it is inappropriate to derail a thread about sexual assault to push your grudge against Tyson.

My grudge is against the pseudo skeptic community that attempts to suppress data it doesn't like. This censorship took place during the earlier scandal and the present scandal.

Earlier we saw so called skeptics actively suppressing evidence that Tyson is a source of misinformation.

Now we are seeing "skeptics" actively trying to suppress allegations of sexual misconduct against Tyson. A much less successful attempt this time around as the super market tabloids have picked up on this scandal.

Novella knows that Tyson has made up the history he has used to support his cautionary tales against religion. These stories have benefited the skeptic community and have been often repeated. Will the community own up to these errors? Will Novella and friends work to correct the misinformation they've helped spread?

No. Novella will remain quiet about these screw ups. And he will continue to endorse Tyson.

The SGU community is not honest.

Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Tassie Dave on December 28, 2018, 05:55:44 PM
I repeat, it is inappropriate to derail a thread about sexual assault to push your grudge against Tyson.

My grudge is against the pseudo skeptic community that attempts to suppress data it doesn't like. This censorship took place during the earlier scandal and the present scandal.

Earlier we saw so called skeptics actively suppressing evidence that Tyson is a source of misinformation.

Now we are seeing "skeptics" actively trying to suppress allegations of sexual misconduct against Tyson. A much less successful attempt this time around as the super market tabloids have picked up on this scandal.

Novella knows that Tyson has made up the history he has used to support his cautionary tales against religion. These stories have benefited the skeptic community and have been often repeated. Will the community own up to these errors? Will Novella and friends work to correct the misinformation they've helped spread?

No. Novella will remain quiet about these screw ups. And he will continue to endorse Tyson.

The SGU community is not honest.

The SGU is not anti-religious. Neither is most of the Skeptical community, including this forum. We respect other's beliefs (except where it tries to push into areas it has no place. Education, science, politics etc)
Yes there is a portion of the skeptic community that is anti-religious.

From what I've seen of NDT is not anti-religious either. He just complains (like most science lovers, skeptic and atheists) when religion crosses over into areas it has no place.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: The Latinist on December 29, 2018, 02:30:16 PM
And, again, it’s not appropriate to make this about you and your grudges.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: PANTS! on December 29, 2018, 08:33:18 PM
It sure didn't take long to see what horse Dave rides.  She has a beef with NDT treatment of Islam.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Harry Black on December 30, 2018, 07:06:15 AM
It sure didn't take long to see what horse Dave rides.  She has a beef with NDT treatment of Islam.
Im not sure I fully understand this bit.

It seems like NDT was making a big deal about the supposed lack of innovation by islamic mathematicians during a specific period?
This is a talking point often seen from people who have an axe to grind with muslim people and their culture.
So I can get someone being pissed off if they think he has contributed to that?
Its one of the reasons Sam Harris has fallen so far in my estimation despite my being quite excited by his material when I first came across it.

But am I completely misreading that particular part of this thread?
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: PANTS! on December 30, 2018, 06:07:56 PM
I am not saying I agree with NDT, but it is telling to me that the OP docuses so much on this issue.  NDT has fucked up other things too.  Dave speaks a lot by what he chooses to  talk about.  It tells me that Dave is another evangellical, here to tell us how to live a life he couldn't give two shits about.

I could be wrong, but for right now, this seems to be how many of these threads spin out.  The OPs of these threads just can't keep their savior in their pants for very long at all.  They can't help it, and pretty soon they are rubbing their dong of religiosity on anyone who come near.

Maybe I'll be pleasently surprised.

Anyway.  Davey, a word if I may.  Most athiest's relationships with celebrities are not like your "relationship" with your sky daddy.  It is not one of worship, and we can agree or disagree with a person's opinion as we see fit.  Your claim that everyone here agrees 100% with "but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of" NDT is so far out of the balllpark.  It not even wrong, just orthagonal to reality.  Grok that, and you might be able to have a discussion here about the plusses and minuses of NDT, instead of your babble down you nose to people who see right through you.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Harry Black on December 30, 2018, 06:48:38 PM
I too am generally side eyed at people who come in and make join a random thread without engaging with the community.
And I generally roll my eyes at people who insist we pull the whole car over to focus on one irrelevant point.
I guess thats just one issue I didnt immediately see an issue with.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Bill K on January 05, 2019, 02:27:04 AM
I'm under the impression that the plural of anecdote doesn't constitute empirical evidence. Why is it in relation to sexual misconduct allegations that evidence aside from testimony is unnecessary to reach conclusions? I'm asking genuinely. If this were any other claim (i.e. "my friends and I saw bigfoot") not many folks here would even bat an eye.

Edit:

Please do not misconstrue what I am saying to mean I assert the accusers here are liars.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on January 05, 2019, 09:02:49 AM
'Personal experience' lends itself to self-report in much the same way that 'observed natural phenomena' does not.

edit: My answer feels incomplete.

Less Jokey Phrasing: Self-report is tacitly accepted for personal experience whereas it is not for observed phenomena.

Not sure how to unpack that further.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Desert Fox on January 05, 2019, 01:13:32 PM
If I can ask, we are still basically where we were?

The two incidents of what would be considered "Inappropriate Behavior," he acknowledged and apologized for?
The incident of rape he is not acknowledging although is not really attacking the woman involved? 
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: D4M10N on January 05, 2019, 03:03:27 PM
If I can ask, we are still basically where we were?

The two incidents of what would be considered "Inappropriate Behavior," he acknowledged and apologized for?
The incident of rape he is not acknowledging although is not really attacking the woman involved?
Yes, this is roughly where we are.

Tyson acknowledged being rather enthused about a solar system tattoo, and we have to judge whether it somehow pertains to an accusation of sex crime.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Bill K on January 05, 2019, 03:10:52 PM
'Personal experience' lends itself to self-report in much the same way that 'observed natural phenomena' does not.

edit: My answer feels incomplete.

Less Jokey Phrasing: Self-report is tacitly accepted for personal experience whereas it is not for observed phenomena.

Not sure how to unpack that further.

You're right in a way. How about self-reporting in instances of herbal drug or homeopathic remedy usage and their benefits, for example. We completely discount such claims everyday. However, self-reporting in cases like this inherently garners more credibility. Why?

Edit: I realize statistically one is far less likely to falsely report sexual assault than to tell the truth, it seems. I do wonder in the recent acceptability, support, empathy, publicity and consequence of accusations of this sort, has the percentage of false reporting grown? The occurrence of false reporting sexual assault is far from 0%, though, too. Moreover, many accusations as of late in the media and elsewhere seem to be of sexual harassment. Do we have any idea how accurate reports of that are?
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: PANTS! on January 06, 2019, 08:16:37 PM
There is not a defined physical mechanism for homeopathy to even work.  There is most certainly is a mechanism for sexual harassment to occur. 

In addition, Homeopathy has never been shown to work in observation.  Sexual harassment has been observed countless times.

The two things are in no way on equal footing, and I question the morality of someone who sets their priors on the likelihood of harassment occurring at the same level as homeopathy being real.

Why do people throw baynseian mechanics out the window when it comes to people having rights?
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Bill K on January 07, 2019, 04:48:39 AM
I've been reading through this topic as well as others related to the topic of sexual assault more generally (or misconduct, what have you) more . I get and agree now with why these accusations are taken so seriously. Very thankful to you guys, really. :)  I know this thread's about Neil, but having recently come across the deal with Evan and groping... why has nothing ever been made of this more significantly than some obscure forum posts here? That seems like a really big deal in my mind. What he's accused of and the total lack of any acknowledgement at all from any of the rogues. Cara might be in the dark on this one. Pretty disturbing nonetheless.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Quetzalcoatl on January 07, 2019, 09:48:22 AM
It seems like NDT was making a big deal about the supposed lack of innovation by islamic mathematicians during a specific period?
This is a talking point often seen from people who have an axe to grind with muslim people and their culture.

Perhaps I am reading you wrong here, but if this is true, should it not be stated because some people with questionable motives also make those points?
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: John Albert on January 07, 2019, 06:34:38 PM
It seems like NDT was making a big deal about the supposed lack of innovation by islamic mathematicians during a specific period?

As I recall it, Neil deGrasse Tyson praised the mathematical and astronomical achievements of the early Islamic world. Then he contrasted that progress against the scientific illiteracy that came into fashion after a fundamentalist imam rose to prominence and declared most secular concerns to be haram.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: haudace on March 03, 2019, 06:02:47 PM
Is this dead?
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Bill K on March 04, 2019, 02:18:52 AM
I don't believe the investigations have disclosed any findings yet. So, no, I don't think the investigation is dead, just that no updates have been given.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Paul Blevins Jr. on March 04, 2019, 02:57:20 PM
The second season of Cosmos was originally scheduled to begin this past Sunday. It got quietly pulled and no new date has been reported. I wonder if it's related to the allegations (probably). I wonder how feasible it would to replace/edit out Tyson in the worst case scenario?
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Bill K on March 05, 2019, 10:50:51 AM
The second season of Cosmos was originally scheduled to begin this past Sunday. It got quietly pulled and no new date has been reported. I wonder if it's related to the allegations (probably). I wonder how feasible it would to replace/edit out Tyson in the worst case scenario?

Steven Novella can fill those shoes! Probably want an astrophysicist, though...
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: CarbShark on March 05, 2019, 11:57:08 AM
The second season of Cosmos was originally scheduled to begin this past Sunday. It got quietly pulled and no new date has been reported. I wonder if it's related to the allegations (probably).



‘Comos’ Season 2 to Miss March Premiere Date – Variety (https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/cosmos-season-2-premiere-date-neil-degrasse-tyson-1203141146/)



'Cosmos' Bumped on Fox as Neil deGrasse Tyson Investigation Continues | Hollywood Reporter (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/cosmos-bumped-fox-as-neil-degrasse-tyson-investgation-continues-1187193)

Quote
“The credo at the heart of ‘Cosmos’ is to follow the evidence wherever it leads,” the producers said in a joint statement in November. “The producers of ‘Cosmos’ can do no less in this situation. We are committed to a thorough investigation of this matter and to act accordingly as soon as it is concluded.”

 :(
Quote
I wonder how feasible it would to replace/edit out Tyson in the worst case scenario?

The narration would be easy. The standups would have to be reshot with someone else. Definitely feasible. But people are probably tuning in to see Tyson, can't think of any scientist as prominent with as much name recognition. Not even close.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Billzbub on March 05, 2019, 12:01:30 PM
Cara doesn't have as much name recognition, but people would tune in if she hosted.  I think she'd be a great fit.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: lucek on March 11, 2019, 08:40:12 PM
Just a quick thought. Fox more than likely would shelf the show either if the inquiry came out negative positive or has not come out at all. They don't want to be part of a shitshow and I can not blame them.

I really hope the results of the inquiry are made public. People burying unwanted info is how we got in this sad state of affairs.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: CarbShark on March 11, 2019, 10:17:12 PM
This decision would completely up to National Geographic and the program’s production company. Not Fox


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: The Latinist on March 12, 2019, 01:34:44 AM
This decision would completely up to National Geographic and the program’s production company. Not Fox

The show was produced for Fox, which owns the broadcast rights to it. But even if National Geographic did have any say in it, until the sale of 21st Century Fox to Disney is completed, Fox still owns a controlling interest in the National Geographic Channel. That's why they got to air reruns of the 2014 series.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: CarbShark on March 12, 2019, 11:02:24 AM
This decision would completely up to National Geographic and the program’s production company. Not Fox

The show was produced for Fox, which owns the broadcast rights to it. But even if National Geographic did have any say in it, until the sale of 21st Century Fox to Disney is completed, Fox still owns a controlling interest in the National Geographic Channel. That's why they got to air reruns of the 2014 series.

You're right.

I was confusing Cosmos with Star Talk.

Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: The Latinist on March 12, 2019, 01:16:44 PM
This decision would completely up to National Geographic and the program’s production company. Not Fox

The show was produced for Fox, which owns the broadcast rights to it. But even if National Geographic did have any say in it, until the sale of 21st Century Fox to Disney is completed, Fox still owns a controlling interest in the National Geographic Channel. That's why they got to air reruns of the 2014 series.

You're right.

I was confusing Cosmos with Star Talk.

Doesn't make much difference; as I said, NGC is majority-owned by 21st Century Fox.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: CarbShark on March 12, 2019, 02:04:16 PM
This decision would completely up to National Geographic and the program’s production company. Not Fox

The show was produced for Fox, which owns the broadcast rights to it. But even if National Geographic did have any say in it, until the sale of 21st Century Fox to Disney is completed, Fox still owns a controlling interest in the National Geographic Channel. That's why they got to air reruns of the 2014 series.

You're right.

I was confusing Cosmos with Star Talk.

Doesn't make much difference; as I said, NGC is majority-owned by 21st Century Fox.

The difference is that Cosmos airs on Fox (the network, which is who I was referring to) and Star Talk air on NGC (the cable channel). While both companies are majority owned by the 21st Century Fox, the conglomerate would not get involved (and would not need to get involved) in those kinds of decisions. 
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Quetzalcoatl on March 12, 2019, 03:00:49 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but these allegations have been public for a while now, and it was early on stated that they would be investigated. Shouldn't they have concluded something by now? It's completely silent.

NDT used to be pretty active on Twitter, but now he hasn't tweeted since February 23. That's a bit odd, and there is no note that he would take break from Twitter or anything. It doesn't have to be connected to the allegations, but it is noteworthy, I think.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: CarbShark on March 12, 2019, 03:34:53 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but these allegations have been public for a while now, and it was early on stated that they would be investigated. Shouldn't they have concluded something by now? It's completely silent.

NDT used to be pretty active on Twitter, but now he hasn't tweeted since February 23. That's a bit odd, and there is no note that he would take break from Twitter or anything. It doesn't have to be connected to the allegations, but it is noteworthy, I think.

I believe it's being investigated by Fox and NGC. (Maybe together). It's not a criminal or official investigation of any kind.

What ever results they find will be released if and when they feel like it.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Awatsjr on March 15, 2019, 07:05:37 PM
Looks like he's back.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: lucek on March 16, 2019, 07:09:40 AM
Looks like he's back.
Quote
"The investigation is complete, and we are moving forward with both StarTalk and Cosmos," Fox and Nat Geo said in a statement. "StarTalk will return to the air with the remaining 13 episodes in April on National Geographic, and both Fox and National Geographic are committed to finding an air date for Cosmos. There will be no further comment."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp/live-feed/neil-degrasse-tyson-cleared-nat-geo-investigation-1195140 (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp/live-feed/neil-degrasse-tyson-cleared-nat-geo-investigation-1195140)
Looks like atleast to the investigation there was evidence of wrongdoing.

Does that mean he's innocent. No. But it's better than out and out guilty. For me this is enough to give him the benefit of the doubt but I'll never look at him the same way again.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Awatsjr on March 16, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
He's forever tainted - right or wrong.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: daniel1948 on March 16, 2019, 10:57:21 AM
Cara doesn't have as much name recognition, but people would tune in if she hosted.  I think she'd be a great fit.

I don't have any TV inputs (just a BD player and some streaming) but if Cara hosted it I'd try my best to find a way to watch. Otherwise, not really interested. I just don't expect a show geared for the general American public to have any information of interest to me. I do listen to AstronomyCast, and if Stuart ever resumes Exposing Pseudoastronomy I'll listen again, though I won't blame him if he doesn't. The crap he had to wade through to do that show must have been mind-numbing. If the original Cosmos had been on when I was a kid I'll bet I'd have loved it.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: fuzzyMarmot on March 17, 2019, 12:14:56 AM
Here is a story that goes into a lot of detail. It was updated a couple days ago:
https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/12/6/18125457/neil-degrasse-tyson-tchiya-amet-cosmos-natgeo (https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/12/6/18125457/neil-degrasse-tyson-tchiya-amet-cosmos-natgeo)
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: The Latinist on March 17, 2019, 12:43:57 AM
Here is a story that goes into a lot of detail. It was updated a couple days ago:
https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/12/6/18125457/neil-degrasse-tyson-tchiya-amet-cosmos-natgeo (https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/12/6/18125457/neil-degrasse-tyson-tchiya-amet-cosmos-natgeo)

Updated, but not in a way that provides any sort of resolution. Fox and NGC have said that they have completed their investigation, but they have announced no conclusions and have merely said that he will return to the air. We have no idea whether that means they found the accusations not credible, concluded that there was insufficient evidence either way, or found evidence of wrongdoing and decided to sweep it under the rug. And, to be honest, I don't find the Fox's history in dealing with these issues merits the benefit of any sort of doubt.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Harry Black on March 17, 2019, 06:54:17 AM
What in the hell could an 'investigation' of these kinds of claims from so long ago really uncover anyway? What steps would be taken? Even with police powers it would be somewhat for show imo.
Title: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: CarbShark on March 17, 2019, 10:24:14 AM
What in the hell could an 'investigation' of these kinds of claims from so long ago really uncover anyway? What steps would be taken? Even with police powers it would be somewhat for show imo.
Similar reports from others would be the career-ender.

By investigation it probably means they simply interviewed each of the women and maybe evaluated any other evidence they provided and then interviewed NDT.

The result could have a wide range of outcomes from false to inconclusive to true but trivial or true and serious.

Their actions could be anything from no action to firing with a referral to law enforcement.

That he’s returning to the air is probably a good thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Harry Black on March 17, 2019, 10:29:35 AM
I understand that this is what they mean by investigation.

My point is that its highly unlikely to ever uncover evidence unless the subject themselves says something incriminating. I have been involved with such workplace 'investigations' and they are a farce.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: CarbShark on March 17, 2019, 10:38:40 AM
Maybe not.

These investigations are generally run by the companies’ legal departments and they have a secondary purpose.

In addition to determining if an employee is guilty of the  accusations they are also trying to determine if the company may be liable in legal action for those claims and if keeping him on at the company would put them at risk for future claims.

They do take that seriously.

(That said, the fact that he was not fired is not an exoneration. In some cases firing could increase their liability.)





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Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: Harry Black on March 17, 2019, 10:59:23 AM
We are about to start going around in circles.

I dont need you to explain to me what an investigation is or what a companys goals may be in running one.
I am saying that being so far removed from the incident, a few interviews (assuming co-operation of all relevant persons) are not likely to uncover evidence of wrong doing even if the subject were guilty.

As you say, its more about removing liability.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: CarbShark on March 17, 2019, 11:23:39 AM
Well that’s not all you were saying. There is a lot at stake here and at this level an investigation is not a farce.

But I’ve made my points and had my say, so I’m done


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Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: John Albert on March 17, 2019, 06:54:54 PM
Some people's minds are already made up one way or another and no new information (or lack thereof) will make any difference.

Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: CarbShark on April 03, 2019, 05:00:30 PM
"StarTalk" returns to National Geographic Thursday night with two new episodes.
Title: Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson Is Under Investigation for Sexual Misconduct
Post by: mindme on April 04, 2019, 08:10:29 AM
"StarTalk" returns to National Geographic Thursday night with two new episodes.

I listen to startalk on xm radio every morning on my drive to the train station. I enjoy it.